Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Turning Ukraine into the contract army for NATO is crazy talk. If you can't see that then you are crazy.
War
- Thread starter captainmorgan
- Start date
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
It would not be official, but it would be defacto, the EU and America will make Ukraine strong, and the German army is expanding to pick up the slack. Much of our defense policy was based on a myth, the legend of the unstoppable red army of the Soviet Union, until end of the cold war the idea was to nuke the mass tank armies coming from the east. Everybody was afraid of the big bad bear and their Potemkin paper army, and the myth was exploded in Ukraine while the cold war stocks they had in abundance and produced after are used up. Russia has an economy the size of Argentina FFS with an economy in the toilet and their military almost completely destroyed with over 90% of it in Ukraine now.
I'm talking about adapting to a new reality here, the reality of the dead bear, we can still have shit prepositioned in Europe, but After this Europe is gonna have a lot more confidence in dealing with Russia, so will Ukraine. It depends on Xi, but I think America's focus has already shifted to the pacific, Russia is as good as done and is not a superpower except for nukes, it is not even a conventional regional power anymore. They are so depleted the 101st airborne could drop on the fucking Kremlin and hold the place until the armor arrived.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Each nation should maintain a fighting force in order to cooperatively defend NATO countries. What you are talking about, using Ukraine as the source of people to fight wars for NATO is crazy talk.
doublejj
Well-Known Member
US Army awards Lockheed up to $4.5 bln missiles contract
www.reuters.com
US Army awards Lockheed up to $4.5 bln missiles contract
Lockheed Martin Corp said on Monday the U.S. Army has awarded a multiple-year production contract for Joint-Air-to-Ground Missiles (JAGM) and HELLFIRE missiles, in a deal that could go up to $4.5 billion including follow-on awards.
Roger A. Shrubber
Well-Known Member
i can't really argue with much you said, but placing one country in the position of "peace keeper" kind of defeats the purpose of NATO, it's a cooperative organization, and much of their strength comes from that diversity. It's also not fair to the Ukrainians...they're already going to have a bigger problem with ptsd than we do, in a country with around a tenth of our population...they're going to need time to deal with some shit when this is over.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
They are fighting for NATO now and will for some time to come, if Vlad does not sign a peace treaty after being ejected from Ukraine. The Ukrainians would have the most say in this matter of being "used". It's a bit like Sweden now, they are not in NATO but they are in reality because Russia would have to go through a NATO country to get to them. So, the European NATO members plus allies to counter a greatly diminished threat and an exploded myth of Russian military power. They won't be able to recover their oil business if it freezes up and has no foreign investment or expertise and the world will have largely moved on from fossil fuels by the time it gets out from under sanctions.
I'm sure the future possibilities are being considered in foggybottom and in Bejing, since they stand to gain the most from Russia's eventual dissolution. Joe wants to be ready in case Xi goes nuts and makes for Taiwan, which I doubt, but it is too big a national security threat with semiconductors that he dares not slack off or they might get stupid. It takes years and billions to build fabs, train staff and fuck up until you get it right.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
I agree, but they are not in NATO and subject to Russian attack now and they likely won't be in NATO any time soon, so make them strong and make the fierce, they are already feared by the Russians, who got a tiny taste of NATO and Uncle Sam. Once they beat Russia and eject them from their country the war will not end unless Putin wants it to, so make him want to and make it as painful and costly as possible. If fighting spreads into Belarus it will be through Ukraine and shit might be led by Belarussians fighting in Ukraine now with clandestine support from the poles. It is this freedom of action by the Ukrainians that will cause Vlad the most trouble, Ukrainian intelligence is a dating service FFS hooking up intelligence agencies with Vald's many enemies fighting in Ukraine, some are from inside Russia too. America and the EU will want a prosperous Ukraine to rub Vlad nose in it from right across the border and in the middle of the Slavic world. W Germany prospered and so did South Korea.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying they wouldn't maintain national armies and Ukraine is not a NATO member and is left hanging out to dry anyway, the war will not end until Putin wants it to or is dead. Make Ukraine strong and prosperous enough and they won't have to fight Russia who won't have the resources to prosecute a war anyway other than fire the odd missile into Ukraine.
Roger A. Shrubber
Well-Known Member
i think they're already tough enough, and tired enough. If the fight spreads outside Ukraine and others have to step in, they should take the brunt of the attacks off of the Ukrainians for a while, they deserve a break.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
I think when they start their offensive things will change and it won't cost them many lives either, it will cost them less than a slogging match when they can use the power of training, maneuver and combined arms to their fullest extent. I think they will get that break by fall and R&R on the beaches of the Sea of Azov this summer.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
I'm wondering what batteries these military suicide drones use, a disposable battery with high energy density would be what you would need, something like an aluminum air or advanced lithium silicon or sulfur, you don't worry about the number of charging cycles with a suicide drone, or recharging. Electric propulsion gives them their versatility, starting a small gas engine is tricky at best and trying to fire one up while being launched out of a tube at high G might not be reliable! Range/endurance are their short comings compared to a gazzer. An RC guy crossed the Atlantic using GPS decades ago using an 11-pound gas power model plane TAM5. They would hang you for this today, the electronics would be much easier, but the plane would be just as hard to make!
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Ukraine is going to be a mess after this is done. There must be a massive amount of aid sent to them, including aid to rebuild and rearm their national defense. Discussing NATO using their young men as mercenaries is crazy talk. Those men are needed at home.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
They will be a check on Russia imperialism whatever I think, and they will be armed to the teeth, what they do is up to them, but they will be strong enough to defend themselves. They would be a dagger 200 miles from Moscow on their southern flank, so any moves west would result in a stab in the gut from Ukraine, NATO or not. I'm just basically proposing a reduced NA presence in Europe essentially, other than prepositioned equipment and much as it was in the early 2000's. One's defensive posture should be in proportion to the threat and that threat has and will be greatly diminished. The way I see it is there will be no peace with Vlad for Ukraine and the way to get rid of him is to defeat him and break his ability to project power, even internally in the east. Change has to come from the top down in Russia, Vlad can't be dealt with, and this is what a lot of this is about, they tried to deal with him, and the buildup is a further warning, get out while you can. If he loses this war and Crimea, he's as good as dead.
Roger A. Shrubber
Well-Known Member
i can't kick a puppy....Are you kidding? Ukraine is just getting started
Yup, they're just getting started. Slava Ukraini.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
They have no choice, tired or not, the Russians must not just be defeated, they must also be destroyed and driven from the land. They will get a rest this fall I figure but will fight to the border of until the fall rains make operations impossible, if they have to. They might wait on Crimea, but that might depend on how quickly they dispatch the Russians on the mainland. They will want as many Russian civilians as possible to leave Crimea and whatever equipment Vlad has there will be trapped cut off from resupply and fuel and useless for supporting the battles on the mainland, if he takes the troops out to support the mainland fight, he leaves the equipment there, the Ukrainians can walk into Crimea and take it, if there are no troops there.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Vlad is no longer accepting "gifts", has hired extra food tasters and ordered a Gieger counter watch for teatime.
www.bbc.com
Darya Trepova: Russia releases video of suspect in cafe killing of Vladlen Tatarsky
In a video likely filmed under duress, Darya Trepova says she handed over a statuette that blew up.
www.bbc.com
doublejj
Well-Known Member
They don't have a death penalty in Muscovy. This woman should plead guilty and when she gets to prison volunteer for the Wagner army and once she is sent to Ukraine she can surrender and be treated like a hero.....Vlad is no longer accepting "gifts", has hired extra food tasters and ordered a Gieger counter watch for teatime.
Darya Trepova: Russia releases video of suspect in cafe killing of Vladlen Tatarsky
In a video likely filmed under duress, Darya Trepova says she handed over a statuette that blew up.
Roger A. Shrubber
Well-Known Member
i can talk myself in circles and still not know a damn thing. The Ukrainians are good at improvising and working off the cuff, but the nature of the conflict demands certain behavior, and precludes others.
One thing you keep bringing up and that i think would be a good idea is knocking their railheads back a few tens of kilometers from the border. The russians do use trains to move a lot of supplies, equipment, and personnel, and the further they have to be ferried to the fighting from, the better.
But what the Ukrainians will do is up to them. Retaking Crimea and destroying the Kerch bridge would be a huge victory, but putin would retaliate with everything he has left. Perhaps the Ukrainians are trying to attrite more russian materials before they invite that kind of retaliation?
I personally would concentrate on solidifying a defensive line between Kharkiv and Donetsk, and then from Donetsk to Mariupol. that would give them a solid front to work behind, and the kerch bridge is 115 miles from melitopol, less than 100 from Henichesk...