Gun control is coming

[cannabineer]

Devils advocate...
Alternatively, a bat or a knife has many other purposes. A guns explicit purpose is to kill, which is why the founders believed it should be a right of the people to own them, with absolutely the best intentions, and zero idea that eventually guns would be capable of firing more shots in a minute than the guns of their time could fire in a day, with a much higher accuracy.

The only purpose a bat has is to eat bugs in the dark.

 

[Fogdog]

I'm not saying it's not a gun problem. I just don't believe long term anti gun solutions are being considered because you can't get re elected on something that won't have a major effect in a few years. That's my opinion.

I think addressing mental health and poverty will solve foundational problems in a relatively shorter, but still longterm, way.

If we only care about human suffering when it reaches crichendo, and the solution is to limit the ability of people to do harm without emphasizing relieving the core issues, mainly poverty and compassion. we are doomed to lowering the general quality of life for everyone.

The people I talk to are in the midst of a cultural shift. America is a young country, we haven't really come to terms with the idea of change. Lately the whole world is struggling with this, here it's magnified because we lack history and perspective. Political parties and priorities shift with time. I believe this is happening, for good and bad.

I don't have solutions, I'm a high-school drop out electrician who only wants to grow weed.

All I know is hope is free to some and worthless to others, but I have it in spades.

fine, I'll take your word as gospel. What do you say should be done?

 

[Fogdog]

A gun is made to fire a projectile. The person operating the firearm chooses what that projectile hits. Lay a gun on the table, it will never hurt a single person. Put that gun in a dangerous or unstable persons hands and it is now a weapon just like a knife or a baseball bat etc.
Carrying a knife, you could stab people but with throwing knives you can stab more people from further away. Ban throwing knives and leave reg knives legal so only some people will get stabbed? Well LESS people so it's ok then?

I'll go with you on this. Given your assertions are true. The other weapons cause nothing like the rates of homicides guns are causing in the US. So, suggest we go after the heavy hitter first. What do you propose be done to reduce the rates of gun homicides in the US?

 

[Tolerance Break]

fine, I'll take your word as gospel. What do you say should be done?

I don't know. Gun to my head, I would say people should talk to eachother, especially those we disagree with. Start from a place of common ground.

We as a People have far more in common than we like to think. By in large we want our families fed, we want our children to be safe, and we want tomorrow to be better than today. If we can get along, then maybe we don't have to dig our heels into the mud when we disagree with one another.

Most people wont change someone's mind with an arguement, but with compassion we can plant seeds, and those seeds can blossom into nuanced ideas, free from tribal idealism.

If we can make our communities more than a geographical demographic, maybe we can elect people who have our best interests in mind and put them in a place of power, where they can talk to others who have our best interests in mind, and we can start compromising instead of fillibustering.

Maybe we have to come to terms with the fact the changes we want won't happen in our lifetime, maybe ever, but by putting some good out into the world in the form of community and culture, maybe they won't have to legislate our freedoms. Maybe people can feel loved and take care of eachother.

Isn't that the reason weed became so popular and demonized? It brought together a bunch of peace loving hippies who followed bands like the Grateful Dead and spread the love. Maybe we should go back to that...

I guess what I'm saying is, we have to be able to disagree without making enemies of one another. If we were in a foxhole, I wouldn't give a fuck what your beliefs were. If you had my back, I would have yours.

 

[Fogdog]

I don't know. Gun to my head, I would say people should talk to eachother, especially those we disagree with. Start from a place of common ground.

We as a People have far more in common than we like to think. By in large we want our families fed, we want our children to be safe, and we want tomorrow to be better than today. If we can get along, then maybe we don't have to dig our heels into the mud when we disagree with one another.

Most people wont change someone's mind with an arguement, but with compassion we can plant seeds, and those seeds can blossom into nuanced ideas, free from tribal idealism.

If we can make our communities more than a geographical demographic, maybe we can elect people who have our best interests in mind and put them in a place of power, where they can talk to others who have our best interests in mind, and we can start compromising instead of fillibustering.

Maybe we have to come to terms with the fact the changes we want won't happen in our lifetime, maybe ever, but by putting some good out into the world in the form of community and culture, maybe they won't have to legislate our freedoms. Maybe people can feel loved and take care of eachother.

Isn't that the reason weed became so popular and demonized? It brought together a bunch of peace loving hippies who followed bands like the Grateful Dead and spread the love. Maybe we should go back to that...

I guess what I'm saying is, we have to be able to disagree without making enemies of one another. If we were in a foxhole, I wouldn't give a fuck what your beliefs were. If you had my back, I would have yours.

20,000 dead each year and the answer is talk.

Oregon passed a gun control initiative (OR Measure 114) by a slim margin but we did pass it with a fair amount of votes coming from gun owners. Specifically, it:

• Requires a permit before a person may buy a gun. To get the permit, the applicant must take a class in gun safety that include safe storage, discusses suicide, its causes and where to reach out for help. It also requires the applicant to demonstrate proficiency in the use of a gun, safety practices when handling loaded gun.
• Another part of the measure was a ban on the SALE of guns and gun magazines that hold more than ten rounds. Ownership of existing hardware is grandfathered in. But it can't be sold legally.
• Another part of the measure was closure of the gun show loophole that allows sales without background checks and provides more time and resources for conducting background checks.

These laws are not new, they are already in place in districts in this country. A midwestern state actually reversed a law that required a permit before purchasing, so we have a clear example of what happens when the opposite became law. The data are clear. These measure save lives. Hard data shows rates of gun deaths are reduced by 25% when these measures are in place. Numbers of people harmed in mass shooting are greatly reduced. Suicides are reduced. Accidents in the home go down. Why would anybody NOT want that?

Despite all of this, the NRA and other gun lobbies have this measure tied up in state courts and a hick judge in a county of less than 15,000 people is obstructing the movement of this measure throuh his court, preventing it from review in higher courts where his "unconstitutional" ruling will be challenged. I believe his ruling will be overturned if it gets its day in court.

I'm kind of bothered by all this talk of talk when we have a bill that was legally passed into law and is being prevented from even proceeding through the courts at an appropriate speed. The will of the people have spoken. That should be enough but its not.

So OK, we will double down. The state legislature is taking up this issue and drafting its own bill patterned after Measure 114. Gun adocates aren't going away and neither are proponents of Measure 114.

Measures in OR 114 will not prevent anybody with the legal right to own a gun from getting one. Pro gun groups who are obstructing Measure 114 are not protecting the constitution. They simply don't care about the lives guns cost our society. I'm not really interested in having a conversation with people like that. Our objectives aren't aligned. I don't think they can win without majority support and they don't have it. I think the time for talk is running out. It's time for gun advocates to put up or shut up.

 

[Tolerance Break]

20,000 dead each year and the answer is talk.

Oregon passed a gun control initiative (OR Measure 114) by a slim margin but we did pass it. Specifcally, it:

• Requires a permit before a person may buy a gun. To get the permit, the applicant must take a class in gun safety that include safe storage, discusses suicide, its causes and where to reach out for help. It also requires the applicant to demonstrate proficiency in the use of a gun, safety practices when handling loaded gun.
• Another part of the measure was a ban on the SALE of guns and gun magazines that hold more than ten rounds. Ownership of existing hardware is grandfathered in. But it can't be sold legally.
• Another part of the measure was closure of the gun show loophole that allows sales without background checks and provides more time and resources for conducting background checks.

These laws are not new, they are already in place in districts in this country. A midwestern state actually reversed a law that required a permit before purchasing, so we have a clear example of what happens when the opposite became law. The data are clear. These measure save lives. Hard data shows rates of gun deaths are reduced by 25% when these measures are in place. Numbers of people harmed in mass shooting are greatly reduced. Suicides are reduced. Accidents in the home go down. Why would anybody NOT want that?

Despite all of this, the NRA and other gun lobbies have this measure tied up in state courts and a hick judge in a county of less than 15,000 people is obstructing the movement of this measure throuh his court, preventing it from review in higher courts where his "unconstitutional" ruling will be challenged. I believe his ruling will be overturned if it gets its day in court.

I'm kind of bothered by all this talk of talk when we have a bill that was legally passed into law and is being prevented from even proceeding through the courts at an appropriate speed. The will of the people have spoken. That should be enough but its not.

So OK, we will double down. The state legislature is taking up this issue and drafting its own bill patterned after Measure 114. Gun adocates aren't going away and neither are proponents of Measure 114.

Measures in OR 114 will not prevent anybody with the legal right to own a gun from getting one. Pro gun groups who are obstructing Measure 114 are not protecting the constitution. They simply don't care about the lives guns cost our society. I'm not really interested in having a conversation with people like that. Our objectives aren't aligned. I don't think they can win without majority support and they don't have it. I think the time for talk is running out. It's time for gun advocates to put up or shut up.

Hey, I'm not asking you to read what I said, but there's no reason for a strawman. I'm not in opposition of you, I don't know why you are trying to be in opposition of me.

I've waited my entire life for the government to help the people and I expect I will be waiting the rest of my life if we don't realize the power in community and civil discourse.

Good for Oregon, fuck the NRA.

 

[cannabineer]

Hey, I'm not asking you to read what I said, but there's no reason for a strawman. I'm not in opposition of you, I don't know why you are trying to be in opposition of me.

I've waited my entire life for the government to help the people and I expect I will be waiting the rest of my life if we don't realize the power in community and civil discourse.

Good for Oregon, fuck the NRA.

It’s difficult to have much faith in the power of community and civil discourse when one surveys the solid phalanges of ironically-named republicans advancing a corrosive racist and dominionist agenda in various legislatures— and they were the winners of elections.

 

[Fogdog]

Hey, I'm not asking you to read what I said, but there's no reason for a strawman.

I've waited my entire life for the government to help the people and I expect I will be waiting the rest of my life if we don't realize the power in community and civil discourse.

That is not a fair reply. I read every word you wrote. Is it OK if I disagree? I'm being respectful but I simply don't buy that compassion bit winning the hearts and minds of people who don't care about saving lives. We've been talking for more than 50 years. How many more must die while we talk?

I'm Ok with everything you wrote. Go ahead and talk. I'm not in your way. If you don't like the actions in place in my post, tell me about them. But be aware that while people talk, others are dying and others are not waiting for gun owners who show zero compassion to have a change in heart.

 

[Fogdog]

I've waited my entire life for the government to help the people and I expect I will be waiting the rest of my life if we don't realize the power in community and civil discourse.

Oregon Measure 114 is an example of the power of community and civil discourse.

I hope one day that other states decide to try doing the same.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Hey, I'm not asking you to read what I said, but there's no reason for a strawman. I'm not in opposition of you, I don't know why you are trying to be in opposition of me.

I've waited my entire life for the government to help the people and I expect I will be waiting the rest of my life if we don't realize the power in community and civil discourse.

Good for Oregon, fuck the NRA.

Civil discourse is over, the majority passes a constitutional law, and they comply, get fined, their guns confiscated, go to prison or die with the gun in their cold dead hands. In the end those will be the options, any civil discourse will happen in front of a judge.

 

[Tolerance Break]

It’s difficult to have much faith in the power of community and civil discourse when one surveys the solid phalanges of ironically-named republicans advancing a corrosive racist and dominionist agenda in various legislatures— and they were the winners of elections.

Doing difficult things creates change.

I agree with your point, but we got here by division of the masses, and undoing that is paramount. Without a shift in this culture of division, I don't see a reason the government would have incentive to make change. They will appeal to the majority of their constituents either way, and division only helps them.

 

[Tolerance Break]

Civil discourse is over, the majority passes a constitutional law, and they comply, get fined, their guns confiscated, go to prison or die with the gun in their cold dead hands. In the end those will be the options, any civil discourse will happen in front of a judge.

If it's dead, it's because people stopped participating. Thats something every individual can do something about.

 

[Tolerance Break]

Oregon Measure 114 is an example of the power of community and civil discourse.

I hope one day that other states decide to try doing the same.

Right, so can you see why "go ahead and talk" is a bit of a strawman?

I'm happy for Oregon, much like when kansas kept abortion legal, I believe it inspires hope.

 

[cannabineer]

Doing difficult things creates change.

I agree with your point, but we got here by division of the masses, and undoing that is paramount. Without a shift in this culture of division, I don't see a reason the government would have incentive to make change. They will appeal to the majority of their constituents either way, and division only helps them.

The question becomes how.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

If it's dead, it's because people stopped participating. Thats something every individual can do something about.

Not really, some people can't be reached or can deal with reality, like the bunch who stampeded from foxnews over them calling the election of Biden, they could not handle the truth. The real problem is they don't want to form a caring sharing human community with people they consider to be "other" and that is where communication breaks down. Both sides are not the same, one side is clearly wrong, malicious and unpatriotic, they are called republicans and they are at war with the US constitution, and they can't put enough lipstick on the pig to hide that simple fact. From a corrupt president, to corrupt members of congress (J6) and senators (J6) and corrupt members of the SCOTUS, who all happen to be republicans.

 

[cannabineer]

If it's dead, it's because people stopped participating. Thats something every individual can do something about.

That sounds suspiciously libertarian. Reliance on self-motivation is the Achilles’ heel of any libertarian construct. It does not work.

 

[Tolerance Break]

The question becomes how.

That's going to vary person to person, locale to locale.

Whether it was bartending, disk golf, the lunch table at work, or a mandatory safe driving course, I have found people are shockingly friendly if I don't start from a place of opposition. I can't say I changed any minds, but I've been able to propose ideas to a few people who admitted to never looking at abortion, gun control, critical race theory, from the other perspective. My intent wasn't manipulation, I just really, really like the open exchange of opposing ideas. If I only spent time with people who thought I was right, I would be an obnoxious idiot instead of an obnoxious idiot with sex appeal.

All jokes aside...

I befriended a man who's dad was a biker, a very racist biker. His dad got a racist symbol tattooed on his chest when he was 14, and he stood by the beliefs that people of color were less than until he moved away, started a new job, and found himself getting along very well with a woman of color. It blossomed into a relationship that, while short lasting, forced him to challenge his pre conceived notions.

Not everyone can change, but this guy checked all the boxes of what I would consider a bad person, and he changed. It just took a little bit of love.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

That sounds suspiciously libertarian. Reliance on self-motivation is the Achilles’ heel of any libertarian construct. It does not work.

Self-motivation never worked for the communists either.

 

[Jjgrow420]

The numbers don’t lie. US has hundreds of mass shootings this year alone. The common element is a gun or guns. Less guns = less innocents shot.

Common element is mental distress/mental illness.

 

[Jjgrow420]

Devils advocate...
Alternatively, a bat or a knife has many other purposes. A guns explicit purpose is to kill, which is why the founders believed it should be a right of the people to own them, with absolutely the best intentions, and zero idea that eventually guns would be capable of firing more shots in a minute than the guns of their time could fire in a day, with a much higher accuracy.

My target shooting .22 and .38 were designed to kill? Nah.