The Junk Drawer

cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Lucky Luke said:
Touche. That's some mighty fine company. Lets hope they are soon. Be good timing.
So that means you can get them into Ukraine with out them getting impounded in Germany, France and England. Nice.

Lets hope they do. Cluster bombs should not be used and they are against them. But they won't cause the dog wagged its tail.

Of cause you do..
How are cluster bombs dropped on your own territory that will take perhaps 100s of years to clear OK? How is it OK for America to give them to Ukraine?
I'm surprised your supportive of it TBH.
Click to expand...
I’m supportive of it for two reasons.
First off, US cluster munitions have evolved. Their dud rate is below 2% iirc.
Second, this is a war of survival for Ukraine, and (excluding wmd!) any weapon that confers tactical advantage is a plus.

Russia has been air-dropping (more random dispersal than the artillery munitions being discussed for Ukraine) cluster munitions with an estimated dud rate of 40%. So in terms of “UXO pollution” (factoring dispersal in) their leftovers are perhaps 100x the problem posed by the ones on the table for Ukraine.

Speaking more from my sentiment, I believe the tech is now good enough that after a decent interval (a month? longer?) a submunition can be cheaply made to either destruct or go inert. I also believe that that tech should be made the standard in the G7, since I don’t think the manufacturers will adopt that function out of the goodness of their collective heart.

That leaves the tactical potency of the weapons intact, and it removes the “long-term terror weapon against innocents” factor that is the major problem with the class.

“anyway, it’s just a thought”
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Lucky Luke

Lucky Luke

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
I’m supportive of it for two reasons.
First off, US cluster munitions have evolved. Their dud rate is below 2% iirc.
Second, this is a war of survival for Ukraine, and (excluding wmd!) any weapon that confers tactical advantage is a plus.

Russia has been air-dropping (more random dispersal than the artillery munitions being discussed for Ukraine) cluster munitions with an estimated dud rate of 40%. So in terms of “UXO pollution” (factoring dispersal in) their leftovers are perhaps 100x the problem posed by the ones on the table for Ukraine.

Speaking more from my sentiment, I believe the tech is now good enough that after a decent interval (a month? longer?) a submunition can be cheaply made to either destruct or go inert. I also believe that that tech should be made the standard in the G7, since I don’t think the manufacturers will adopt that function out of the goodness of their collective heart.

That leaves the tactical potency of the weapons intact, and it removes the “long-term terror weapon against innocents” factor that is the major problem with the class.

“anyway, it’s just a thought”
Click to expand...
The people who survive this war will go on about their lives like generations and generations have before them. The trick of being human is to survive after all. Once ya dead ya dead but the land and its history will survive like it always does.
Two wrongs don't make a right. The moral high ground is worth holding. I hope the majority of NATO countries stops the supply of any more. I understand some arrived recently. Is dropping Cluster bombs on your own land unheard of before?
I'm not even sure if Ukraine dropping American cluster bombs on its own land will resolve the outcome of this stage of the war. Probably not. It seems to reek of desperation.

How long do you think the war has left? Less than 5 years or more than? Peace talks don't seem to be going anywhere and the longer it goes on the greater the chance of a very destabilized region.
So many people killed already. All for an invisible line on a map.
Its such a shame its come to this but that's Europe and Human natures.

I wonder if Zelensky will be game enough to hold elections. On one hand he has to prove Ukraine is moving further to democratic normality with less corruption and if he wins it means he is supported by his citizens but if he loses then it might well show he was out of his depth going into Politics. You could see he was tired, hurt and confused when he didn't get what he wanted regarding NATO membership. I don't think anyone but him thought it would happen. Not holding an election will help cement his power but at what cost.
I know some of you don't put much weight on the Minsk agreement but it has helped the war from flaring up for some time. Having international support for it helps. He also said he would sign it as an election pledge along with closer ties with Russia so both pledges he failed to do. That will be used by his political opponents and the Ukrainian citizens who are tired of war, death and uncertainty. He got elected to bring peace not an escalation. Be interesting if he loses. Might mean this current stage of the war is over. Which would be fantastic. His approval rating is extremely high. He is charismatic. War time presidents usually have a high approval rating early on.

If Biden loses next election then support will dry up for Ukraine pretty quickly. How's the war working for Biden in the US Polls? Is it favouring his ratings or not? I'm guessing it will be but might not come election time. Support has been dwindling as we know. Lets face it its been Biden who has been the one rounding up the Nato (and its partners) to supply Ukraine even though it isn't a NATO member or an allied of the US and of cause is the biggest supplier of weps. Even using dodgy accounting to supply more and more.
I'm surprised Biden hasn't had a meeting with Putin to see if the Minsk agreement can be resurrected with the UN's help and get Zelensky on board. But from the article i posted a couple days ago its seem like no Minsk is what both Zelensky and Putin now agree on.


Old but a good read.
"The first hundred days of war are about to conclude, and the familiar political bickering and attacks seem to have returned to Kyiv."
www.wilsoncenter.org

The Three Ages of Zelensky’s Presidency

www.wilsoncenter.org www.wilsoncenter.org
 
Last edited:
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Lucky Luke said:
The people who survive this war will go on about their lives like generations and generations have before them. The trick of being human is to survive after all. Once ya dead ya dead but the land and its history will survive like it always does.
Two wrongs don't make a right. The moral high ground is worth holding. I hope the majority of NATO countries stops the supply of any more. I understand some arrived recently. Is dropping Cluster bombs on your own land unheard of before?
I'm not even sure if Ukraine dropping American cluster bombs on its own land will resolve the outcome of this stage of the war. Probably not. It seems to reek of desperation.

How long do you think the war has left? Less than 5 years or more than? Peace talks don't seem to be going anywhere and the longer it goes on the greater the chance of a very destabilized region.
So many people killed already. All for an invisible line on a map.
Its such a shame its come to this but that's Europe and Human natures.

I wonder if Zelensky will be game enough to hold elections. On one hand he has to prove Ukraine is moving further to democratic normality with less corruption and if he wins it means he is supported by his citizens but if he loses then it might well show he was out of his depth going into Politics. You could see he was tired, hurt and confused when he didn't get what he wanted regarding NATO membership. I don't think anyone but him thought it would happen. Not holding an election will help cement his power but at what cost.
I know some of you don't put much weight on the Minsk agreement but it has helped the war from flaring up for some time. Having international support for it helps. He also said he would sign it as an election pledge along with closer ties with Russia so both pledges he failed to do. That will be used by his political opponents and the Ukrainian citizens who are tired of war, death and uncertainty. He got elected to bring peace not an escalation. Be interesting if he loses. Might mean this current stage of the war is over. Which would be fantastic. His approval rating is extremely high. He is charismatic. War time presidents usually have a high approval rating early on.

If Biden loses next election then support will dry up for Ukraine pretty quickly. How's the war working for Biden in the US Polls? Is it favouring his ratings or not? I'm guessing it will be but might not come election time. Support has been dwindling as we know. Lets face it its been Biden who has been the one rounding up the Nato (and its partners) to supply Ukraine even though it isn't a NATO member or an allied of the US and of cause is the biggest supplier of weps. Even using dodgy accounting to supply more and more.
I'm surprised Biden hasn't had a meeting with Putin to see if the Minsk agreement can be resurrected with the UN's help and get Zelensky on board. But from the article i posted a couple days ago its seem like no Minsk is what both Zelensky and Putin now agree on.


Old but a good read.
"The first hundred days of war are about to conclude, and the familiar political bickering and attacks seem to have returned to Kyiv."
www.wilsoncenter.org

The Three Ages of Zelensky’s Presidency

www.wilsoncenter.org www.wilsoncenter.org
Click to expand...
nice sentiment, but based on false premises to begin with. Both side of this conflict have had, and used cluster munitions from day one. The only difference here is that we are supplying them to Ukraine now. The ones we supply have a lower failure rate, and are more effective, so them using our cluster munitions would improve the situation, not make it worse.
They're using them on their own land, and certainly not in civilain population centers, unlike the russians. If they're ok with that, why should we have a problem with it?
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
In Italy an assualted woman still has to explain why her skirt was so short and what she was doing out drunk and flirting. They’re so far from woke on this subject they might as well be in a coma. Age of consent is 14 y/o… (where’s Rob lol). Bad rep already when it comes to treating women with respect unless of course it’s mom/grandma but they’ve outdone themselves:

www.bbc.com

Italian uproar over judge's 10-second groping rule

Young Italians object to the acquittal of a school caretaker who admitted groping a teenage student.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
In Italy an assualted woman still has to explain why her skirt was so short and what she was doing out drunk and flirting. They’re so far from woke on this subject they might as well be in a coma. Age of consent is 14 y/o… (where’s Rob lol). Bad rep already when it comes to treating women with respect unless of course it’s mom/grandma but they’ve outdone themselves:

www.bbc.com

Italian uproar over judge's 10-second groping rule

Young Italians object to the acquittal of a school caretaker who admitted groping a teenage student.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
Click to expand...
she should have pushed the old pervert down the stairs.
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
she should have pushed the old pervert down the stairs.
Click to expand...
At the very least.

Although the outrage in social media and the way they express it is good, it doesn’t hurt where it should. Social media is always outraged regardless. All kids in Italy should protest and refuse to go to school till the perv is behind bars. If that doesn’t do it, surely there are some fountains or statues with d*cks they can break off.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Lucky Luke said:
… How long do you think the war has left? Less than 5 years or more than?
Click to expand...
I have no idea. It could take years. Or there could be a massive realignment in Moscow tomorrow, with a disappearance of the leaders who are committed to it.
Peace talks don't seem to be going anywhere
Click to expand...
For peace talks to go anywhere, both sides have to be negotiating in good faith. Your complaint has a whiff of bothsidesism. I think you’ll find that most of the folks pushing negotiation while Russia holds so much stolen territory … are legitimizing Russian aggression. It is not pacifism but condoning fascist war crime. One side plainly holds the high ground, even with cluster munitions.

Peace talks have their place — but not until after Ukraine has regained its territory taken over the last nine years.
 
Lucky Luke

Lucky Luke

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
I have no idea. It could take years. Or there could be a massive realignment in Moscow tomorrow, with a disappearance of the leaders who are committed to it.

For peace talks to go anywhere, both sides have to be negotiating in good faith. Your complaint has a whiff of bothsidesism. I think you’ll find that most of the folks pushing negotiation while Russia holds so much stolen territory … are legitimizing Russian aggression. It is not pacifism but condoning fascist war crime. One side plainly holds the high ground, even with cluster munitions.

Peace talks have their place — but not until after Ukraine has regained its territory taken over the last nine years.
Click to expand...
Lets hope its less than 5 years.
www.rferl.org

British General Says Ukraine War Could Last For 'Decades'

A former commander of the British Joint Forces Command who advises and lectures on defense and security issues, General Sir Richard Barrons, talks about tactics, industrial mobilization, and how, depending on Ukrainian and Western choices, the war could last for many, many years.
www.rferl.org www.rferl.org
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top