Hamas offensive against Israel
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PopAndSonGrows
Well-Known Member
Does any level of violence ever actually change anything? Especially in parts of the World where people have dug-in on their ideals for thousands of years?
Doubt it.
Doubt it.
printer
Well-Known Member
Fifty years ago the Israelis changed things with the Yom Kippur War. Might not be on that scale today but the Palestinians captured military personnel and civilians. They captured military bases and equipment (tanks) across Israel. I am guessing that things will not return to 'normal'.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
A lot of people will die over nothing and nothing will change. Israel won the war, but they did not win the peace or are even trying, no justice no peace. Iran is the ally and supplier of Hamas, and they are allied with Russia, so I expect Ukraine to be the principal beneficiary in the long run. Just as I expect that with North Korea supplying guns and ammo to Russia, South Korea will now supply more arms and ammo to Ukraine.
This attack won't change the map or make a difference, except for the dead people and their families. There are too many ambiguities for me to care much about either side and both sides want the same land. Palestinians did bring the world the idea of hijacking airliners and terrorism, being a pain in the ass to everybody might get them attention but not sympathy.
This attack won't change the map or make a difference, except for the dead people and their families. There are too many ambiguities for me to care much about either side and both sides want the same land. Palestinians did bring the world the idea of hijacking airliners and terrorism, being a pain in the ass to everybody might get them attention but not sympathy.
Kerowacked
Well-Known Member
Israel vows 'mighty vengeance' after surprise attack
The worst attack on Israel for decades unleashed a war that both sides vowed to escalate. Hundreds were reported killed and thousands wounded on both sides after Israel responded with massive air strikes.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I was able to read two paragraphs of an opinion piece on Bloomberg before the gelatinous cube (paywall) got me.
The opinion expressed was that Hamas believed itself to be getting the short end of the stick in the bargain being struck between Biden’s state department, Saudi Arabia and Israel.
So Hamas decided to take a torch to the emerging accords. It’s annoyingly reminiscent of the Republican playbook.
The opinion expressed was that Hamas believed itself to be getting the short end of the stick in the bargain being struck between Biden’s state department, Saudi Arabia and Israel.
So Hamas decided to take a torch to the emerging accords. It’s annoyingly reminiscent of the Republican playbook.
printer
Well-Known Member
Trump: Israel attack results of U.S. being seen as ‘weak and ineffective’
Former President Trump said that recent attacks on Israel by the militant group Hamas are a result of the U.S. being seen as “weak and ineffective” in remarks on Saturday.
“The Israeli attack was made because we are perceived as being weak and ineffective and with a really weak leader,” the former president said at an event in Waterloo, Iowa.
“All over the world things are not what they were just three years ago,” he added.
Trump also said in an earlier statement on the attack that “Israel has a right to defend itself.”
“Sadly, American taxpayer dollars helped fund these attacks, which many reports are saying came from the Biden Administration,” Trump said. “We brought so much peace to the Middle East through the Abraham Accords, only to see Biden whittle it away at a far more rapid pace than anyone thought possible. Here we go again.”
President Joe Biden, Trump’s 2020 presidential rival and likely his 2024 rival, also released a statement in which he said the U.S. condemns the attacks.
“The United States unequivocally condemns this appalling assault against Israel by Hamas terrorists from Gaza, and I made clear to Prime Minister Netanyahu that we stand ready to offer all appropriate means of support to the Government and people of Israel,” Biden said in a statement.
Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) went after Republicans on Saturday for their critiques of Biden during the attacks, calling the criticism “partisan hackery.”
“This is partisan hackery at a time when we need statesmanship. Really bad faith,” Murphy said on X. “Trying to win cheap political points by shifting the blame away from the terrorists is a gift to Hamas right now”
thehill.com
Former President Trump said that recent attacks on Israel by the militant group Hamas are a result of the U.S. being seen as “weak and ineffective” in remarks on Saturday.
“The Israeli attack was made because we are perceived as being weak and ineffective and with a really weak leader,” the former president said at an event in Waterloo, Iowa.
“All over the world things are not what they were just three years ago,” he added.
Trump also said in an earlier statement on the attack that “Israel has a right to defend itself.”
“Sadly, American taxpayer dollars helped fund these attacks, which many reports are saying came from the Biden Administration,” Trump said. “We brought so much peace to the Middle East through the Abraham Accords, only to see Biden whittle it away at a far more rapid pace than anyone thought possible. Here we go again.”
President Joe Biden, Trump’s 2020 presidential rival and likely his 2024 rival, also released a statement in which he said the U.S. condemns the attacks.
“The United States unequivocally condemns this appalling assault against Israel by Hamas terrorists from Gaza, and I made clear to Prime Minister Netanyahu that we stand ready to offer all appropriate means of support to the Government and people of Israel,” Biden said in a statement.
Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) went after Republicans on Saturday for their critiques of Biden during the attacks, calling the criticism “partisan hackery.”
“This is partisan hackery at a time when we need statesmanship. Really bad faith,” Murphy said on X. “Trying to win cheap political points by shifting the blame away from the terrorists is a gift to Hamas right now”
Trump: Israel attack results of U.S. being seen as ‘weak and ineffective’
Former President Trump said that recent attacks on Israel by the militant group Hamas are a result of the U.S. being seen as “weak and ineffective” in remarks on Saturday. “The Is…
thehill.com
BudmanTX
Well-Known Member
TyIsrael vows 'mighty vengeance' after surprise attack
The worst attack on Israel for decades unleashed a war that both sides vowed to escalate. Hundreds were reported killed and thousands wounded on both sides after Israel responded with massive air strikes.www.reuters.com
Another political Rubics cube,legit gripes on both sides,maddeningly unsolvable,one day I fear the Israeli nuke reactor in Dimona will be attacked by a mass of drones(becoming more possible by the day) by Allah Akbar crazed rads.,the no state solution,hope it never happens BUT...
Sativied
Well-Known Member
600+ israelis dead, 44 soldiers thus over 90% civilian... 2000+ wounded, nearly a thousand missing. 200+ death at a dance/music festival. Yeah that’s going to change things alright.
Before the iron shield, Israel had the standard approach of deterrence, early warnings, and decisive strikes. Their intelligence services are so advanced as a result of sort of evolutionary pressure, the constant threat. Whenever the enemy was about to attack, they knew it, they tried to talk them out of it, gave them a warning and if all else failed started a successful relatively small scale offensive to eliminate the threat. The seemingly neverending threat led to advanced defense shields, which don’t necessarily make them any safer but also made them less offensive (relatively anyway). That is going to change, the name operation Iron Swords says it all, or should…
What’s also going to change is the effect the naive views from the west and its increasing borderline and flatout antisemitism is going to have on the restraints of Israel in keeping its people save from the terrorists so many people sympathize with to a point they’re literally repeating hamas propaganda.
Trump‘s comment about Israel having every right to defend itself is merely echoing what nearly every leader in the world stressed yesterday. I may have said something similar a few months ago.
Before the iron shield, Israel had the standard approach of deterrence, early warnings, and decisive strikes. Their intelligence services are so advanced as a result of sort of evolutionary pressure, the constant threat. Whenever the enemy was about to attack, they knew it, they tried to talk them out of it, gave them a warning and if all else failed started a successful relatively small scale offensive to eliminate the threat. The seemingly neverending threat led to advanced defense shields, which don’t necessarily make them any safer but also made them less offensive (relatively anyway). That is going to change, the name operation Iron Swords says it all, or should…
What’s also going to change is the effect the naive views from the west and its increasing borderline and flatout antisemitism is going to have on the restraints of Israel in keeping its people save from the terrorists so many people sympathize with to a point they’re literally repeating hamas propaganda.
Trump‘s comment about Israel having every right to defend itself is merely echoing what nearly every leader in the world stressed yesterday. I may have said something similar a few months ago.
But yeah pAlEsTiNiAnS aRe MuSlImS wHo ArE aCtUaLlY vIcTiMs Of FaScIsT iSrAeLiS. smh.
k0rps
Well-Known Member
JVP STATEMENT:
THE ROOT OF VIOLENCE IS
OPPRESSION
Right now, Palestinians, Israelis
and all of us with family on the
ground are terrified for loved ones.
We grieve the lives of those already
lost and remain committed to a
future where every life is precious,
and all people live in freedom and
safety.
Following 16 years of Israelimilitary
blockade, Palestinian fighters from Gaza
launched an unprecedented assault, in
which hundreds of Israelis were killed and
wounded, and civilians kidnapped. The
Israeli government declared war
launching airstrikes, killing hundreds
of Palestinians and wounding thousands,
bombing residential buildings and
threatening to commit war crimes against
besieged Palestinians in Gaza.
The Israeli government may have just
declared war, but its war on
Palestinians started over 75 years ago
Israeli apartheid and occupation -
and United States complicity in that
oppression - are the source of all this
violence. Reality is shaped by when
you start the clock.
For the past year, the most racist
fundamentalist, far-right government
in Israeli history has ruthlessly
escalated its military occupation over
Palestinians in the name of Jewish
supremacy with violent expulsions
and home demolitions, rmass killings
military raids on refugee camps,
unrelenting siege and daily
humiliation. In recent weeks, Israeli
forces repeatedly stormed the holiest
Muslim sites in Jerusalem,
For 16 years, the Israeli government
has suffocated Palestinians in Gaza
under a draconian air, sea and land
military blockade, imprisoning and
starving two million people and
denying them medical aid. The Israeli
government routinely massacres
Palestinians in Gaza; ten-year-olds
who live in Gaza have already been
traumatized by seven major bombing
campaigns in their short lives.
For 75 years, the Israeli government has
maintained a military occupation over
Palestinians, operating an apartheid
regime. Palestinian children are dragged
from their beds in pre-dawn raids by
sraeli soldiers and held without charge in
Israeli military prisons. Palestinians homes
are torched by mobs of Israeli settlers, or
destroyed by the Israeliarmy. Entire
Palestinian villages are forced to flee,
abandoning the homes and orchards and
land that were in their family for
generations.
The bloodshed of today and the past 75 years traces back directly to U.S.complicity in the 'oppression and horror caused by Israel's military occupation. The U.S.government consistently enables Israeli violence and bears blame for this moment. The unchecked military funding, diplomatic cover, and billions of dollars of private money flowing from the U.S.enables and empowers Israel's apartheid regime. Those who continue calling for "ironclad" U.S. support for the Israeli military are only paving the path to more violence.
From the U.S., there are no sidelines. We
uproot complicity where we are: we demand that the U.S.government immediately take steps to withdraw military funding to Israel and to hold the Israeli government accountable for its gross violations of human rights and war crimes against Palestinians. We commit to escalating our campaigns for boycott, divestment and sanctions to end the billions pouring into the Israeli war machine from corporations and private
foundations.
Inevitably, oppressed people
everywhere will seek- and gain -
their freedom. We all deserve
liberation, safety, and equality
The only way to get there is by
uprooting the sources of the
violence, beginning with our own
government's complicity.
Palestine has every right to defend themselves.
THE ROOT OF VIOLENCE IS
OPPRESSION
Right now, Palestinians, Israelis
and all of us with family on the
ground are terrified for loved ones.
We grieve the lives of those already
lost and remain committed to a
future where every life is precious,
and all people live in freedom and
safety.
Following 16 years of Israelimilitary
blockade, Palestinian fighters from Gaza
launched an unprecedented assault, in
which hundreds of Israelis were killed and
wounded, and civilians kidnapped. The
Israeli government declared war
launching airstrikes, killing hundreds
of Palestinians and wounding thousands,
bombing residential buildings and
threatening to commit war crimes against
besieged Palestinians in Gaza.
The Israeli government may have just
declared war, but its war on
Palestinians started over 75 years ago
Israeli apartheid and occupation -
and United States complicity in that
oppression - are the source of all this
violence. Reality is shaped by when
you start the clock.
For the past year, the most racist
fundamentalist, far-right government
in Israeli history has ruthlessly
escalated its military occupation over
Palestinians in the name of Jewish
supremacy with violent expulsions
and home demolitions, rmass killings
military raids on refugee camps,
unrelenting siege and daily
humiliation. In recent weeks, Israeli
forces repeatedly stormed the holiest
Muslim sites in Jerusalem,
For 16 years, the Israeli government
has suffocated Palestinians in Gaza
under a draconian air, sea and land
military blockade, imprisoning and
starving two million people and
denying them medical aid. The Israeli
government routinely massacres
Palestinians in Gaza; ten-year-olds
who live in Gaza have already been
traumatized by seven major bombing
campaigns in their short lives.
For 75 years, the Israeli government has
maintained a military occupation over
Palestinians, operating an apartheid
regime. Palestinian children are dragged
from their beds in pre-dawn raids by
sraeli soldiers and held without charge in
Israeli military prisons. Palestinians homes
are torched by mobs of Israeli settlers, or
destroyed by the Israeliarmy. Entire
Palestinian villages are forced to flee,
abandoning the homes and orchards and
land that were in their family for
generations.
The bloodshed of today and the past 75 years traces back directly to U.S.complicity in the 'oppression and horror caused by Israel's military occupation. The U.S.government consistently enables Israeli violence and bears blame for this moment. The unchecked military funding, diplomatic cover, and billions of dollars of private money flowing from the U.S.enables and empowers Israel's apartheid regime. Those who continue calling for "ironclad" U.S. support for the Israeli military are only paving the path to more violence.
From the U.S., there are no sidelines. We
uproot complicity where we are: we demand that the U.S.government immediately take steps to withdraw military funding to Israel and to hold the Israeli government accountable for its gross violations of human rights and war crimes against Palestinians. We commit to escalating our campaigns for boycott, divestment and sanctions to end the billions pouring into the Israeli war machine from corporations and private
foundations.
Inevitably, oppressed people
everywhere will seek- and gain -
their freedom. We all deserve
liberation, safety, and equality
The only way to get there is by
uprooting the sources of the
violence, beginning with our own
government's complicity.
Palestine has every right to defend themselves.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
There problem was they followed the wrong path long ago and made too many enemies, friends come and go but enemies accumulate. Global terrorism and hijackings did not help their cause at all, and they were pioneers in terrorism, spreading their problems to the rest of us and being a pain in the ass. I remember the airliner hijackings of the 70 and 80s all by Palestinians with a chip on their shoulders and it changed airline travel forever, like 911 only 30 years before. Defending themselves is one thing inflicting terrorism on the global community is another and in the past and today they are paying the price of that legacy. It is not how you get sympathy for your cause; they need to take a page from Ukraine on PR and its value, Israel too. Now as a people they are basically penned in prisoners at the mercy of an increasingly radical right-wing Israel who is carving up the west bank for themselves, land given to the Palestinians by Jordan for a homeland. The religious right in Israel has lots of kids, just like the Muslims and they simply overpopulated the secular Jews who tended to have none, one or two kids at most. Hence the increasing shift to the right with its ancient map of Israel and sense of religious entitlement.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Yes, that’s a given. Regardless of the history, however, these barbaric attacks have nothing to do with defending one’s territory. All Hamas supporters got is tu quoque, the ultimate kindergarten argument to shift blame and responsibility. Even when terrorists shoot civilian parents in their homes, mutilate the bodies and kidnap their children they still go “but Israel…”. It’s sickening. If Ukraine would do that in Russia, murder hundreds of Russian civilians at a festival for peace, murder civilians in their homes, drag them like animals across the border, somehow I don’t think people would get it in their cognitive consonance challenged heads to say “but Russia started…”.
printer
Well-Known Member
If Ukraine actually went according to plan for Russia, I think a gorilla styled war against them would not have looked too unkindly.
k0rps
Well-Known Member
"Since 2005, Yesh Din has monitored 1,597 investigation files into cases of violence by Israeli civilians against Palestinians in the West Bank (excluding East Jerusalem). In addition to these, over the years, Yesh Din has documented hundreds of additional incidents of settler violence in which the Palestinian crime victims chose not to file a complaint with the police. In most, if not all, of these cases, the offenses go uninvestigated by the police.
Of the 1,531 concluded investigations: Indictments were filed in just 107 cases (7%). Analyzing the circumstances under which investigation files were closed reveals that the police had failed in the investigation of 81.5% of files opened since 2005. The high rate of failure points to a longstanding systemic failure in law enforcement responses to ideologically motivated crime against Palestinians in the West Bank."
Data Sheet, December 2022: Law Enforcement on Israeli Civilians in the West Bank (Settler violence) 2005-2022 - Yesh Din
Israel has exercised control over the West Bank and its millions of Palestinian residents for over 55 years as part of a regime of military occupation. According to international law, these residents are “protected persons,” and Israel has a duty to protect them. Offenses committed by Israelis...
www.yesh-din.org
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Agreed, but then that is not what this is.