Agree completely,War w/China disastrous,no prob. w/Chinese people,Xi is THE problem in imposing the STATE over all aspects of their society AGAIN (MAO revisited),rolling back freedoms just as the Chinese people thought they had turned the corner,and handcuffing the private sector in China which is sure to stifle innovation, just read a piece that Xi wants Chinese women back in the house having babies,good luck w/that comrade Chinese women have had a taste of liberation and education and guess what,"They like it". I'll take Democracy w/all the warts and chaos over the "one man" cult of personality authoritarian model that seems to be alarmingly gaining ground currently ALWAYS.
Hamas offensive against Israel
- Thread starter printer
- Start date
I hear that,Israel should have done some token airstrikes only,then do what they used to do,quietly track down all those involved in the Hamas operation and assasinate them Mossad style,with the killing of all these innocent Palastinian's, Netanyahu played right into the Iranian's calculations that Israel would react w/bloodlust. Get on w/the 2 state solution, all this shit has to end after more than 70 years. Both sides share blame and all these Israeli settlements on Palestinian land are sickening and show absolutely no respect or interest on Israel's behalf to actually consider a fair resolution.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
I don't think that Israel is reacting with bloodlust and you might not have meant it either. The desire for revenge is more like it. The US felt the same way after the 9-11 attack. We responded just like Israel did. Our political leaders used the attack for political gains. There is nothing like a war to bring the people together around their war leader. Bush did it in the false belief that he could finish off the Democratic Party or put Republicans in power for as long as anybody could foresee. Netanyahu is doing it because he is being blamed for enabling Hamas to attack Israel through mis-management of Israel's security programs. Netanyahu is trying to stay in power by pressing this war on the people of Gaza and hoping for a quick win that will get him back in the graces of the Israeli electorate. At this time, he's struggling to maintain his image as a war leader.
https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/10/31/23938474/netanyahu-benjamin-israel-palestine-gaza-hamas-war-remove-prime-minister-hostage-crisis
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is in trouble. As in, facing a non-zero risk of losing his job trouble. And this political drama could have a profound effect on Israel’s approach to the conflict with Palestine.
Netanyahu’s poll numbers since the October 7 Hamas massacre have been grim: One recent survey found that a staggering 80 percent of Israelis held him personally responsible for failing to prevent the Hamas attack; another found trust in the government at a 20-year low. To address his collapsing support, the prime minister held a press conference on Saturday — his first since the attack.
It was, to put it mildly, an embarrassment. Appearing alongside Defense Minister Yoav Gallant and National Unity party leader Benny Gantz, the prime minister appeared out of sorts, stumbling over a prayer for the Israeli army. He faced so many hostile questions from reporters, and had so few good answers, that he left early — only answering seven of the 12 questions he was slated to take.
CANON_Grow
Well-Known Member
How confident are you that Netanyahu's motives are strictly in response to the terrorist attack? With it reported that he was warned by more than one country about intelligence of an attack, and the comments made about Palestinians by government officials prior to the attack, sure seems awfully convenient. I don't doubt there was absolute shock about the scale of the attack, but also doubt the response would have been any different if the there 40 victims vs 1400. This doesn't change the fact that Hamas is to blame for why this started, they are 100% responsible for starting this; but I am not convinced this was mis-management.
What Israeli politicians were saying and doing in the months before the Hamas attack
This April, Peter Beinart, a Jewish American journalist who writes frequently about the Middle East, penned a story called “Could Israel carry out another Nakba?” in Jewish Currents magazine. He noted that as Israel’s government under Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has lurched to the far right, the idea of expelling Palestinians has become increasingly mainstream in Israeli society.
By 2021, Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich was telling Palestinian members of the Knesset, the Israeli legislature, that they were “here by mistake — because [Israel’s founder David] Ben-Gurion didn’t finish the job and throw you out in 1948.” (Former Israeli Defense Minister Benny Gantz, now a member of Israel’s war cabinet, recognized this for what it was, saying “Smotrich wants to cause another Palestinian Nakba — for him, escalation is a desirable thing.”) And by 2022, Israel’s national security minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir, felt emboldened enough to erect campaign billboards reading “May our enemies be banished” below photos of Knesset members from Palestinian parties.
While Smotrich and Ben-Gvir (both still in their positions in government) are known extremists, Beinart emphasized that expulsionist sentiment was also flourishing in Netanyahu’s center-right Likud party, with Israel’s current Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, National Security Adviser Tzachi Hanegbi, and Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter all alluding to removing Palestinians. Beinart wrote:
In a piece in the Nation this past August, Middle East historian Anne Irfan warned that “current conditions in Israel-Palestine show some alarming parallels with the run-up to 1948.” She noted that senior figures in Israel’s far-right government were openly calling for more Palestinian expulsions:
All in all, Irfan judged the situation to be a powder keg. “All of this means that the risk of a second Nakba is at its highest in 75 years,” she wrote.
...
Short of full reoccupation, which the Israeli ambassador to the US said Israel has “no desire” for, one possibility is for Israel to take part of Gaza’s land to widen the “no-go zone” or “buffer zone” that has existed for several years inside Gaza along the perimeter fence separating the enclave and Israel. (Nobody can live there currently, and Palestinians who come too close to the fence have been shot.)
This is what Zayid predicts: “Israel’s going to take that land and be like, ‘Buffer zone,’” she told me. There’s precedent for that: Israel has previously shrunk Gaza in this way when fighting flared up. In 2012, Harvard scholar Sara Roy noted that the buffer zone had absorbed “nearly 14 percent of Gaza’s total land and at least 48 percent of total arable land.”
Two Israeli ministers, Gideon Sa’ar and Avi Dichter, have explicitly stated that this is part of Israel’s plan. “On the Gaza Strip all along, we will have a margin,” Dichter said. “And they will not be able to get in. It will be a fire zone. And no matter who you are, you will never be able to come close to the Israeli border.” He added that the width of the buffer zone would have to be decided “according to the distance of the Israeli military or the Israeli settlements.”
Palestinians fear they’re being displaced permanently. Here’s why that’s logical.
In Israel, calls to expel Palestinians have become increasingly mainstream. Many believe an expulsion like the 1948 Nakba is possible.
Also worth reading:
Expel all Palestinians from Gaza, recommends Israeli gov't ministry
An Intelligence Ministry document revealed by Local Call and +972 shows how population transfer to the Sinai is reaching official discussions.
www.972mag.com
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
I think we can both be right. It's completely possible that the Israeli government or factions inside of it in some way countered or crippled Israeli security to the point where Hamas was able to carry out plans that were underway for more than year. I don't know if evidence has surfaced that confirms this but that possibility exists. As you say, there is circumstancial evidence. If true, the dog caught the car. The backlash against Netanyahu is so strong that some well informed people are predicting it will sweep Netanyahu out of office. Netanyahu went down the path of war. Where it leads none can say. I'm seeing reports from trusted sources that say Bibi doesn't have the time for a long and difficult struggle.How confident are you that Netanyahu's motives are strictly in response to the terrorist attack? With it reported that he was warned by more than one country about intelligence of an attack, and the comments made about Palestinians by government officials prior to the attack, sure seems awfully convenient. I don't doubt there was absolute shock about the scale of the attack, but also doubt the response would have been any different if the there 40 victims vs 1400. This doesn't change the fact that Hamas is to blame for why this started, they are 100% responsible for starting this; but I am not convinced this was mis-management.
What Israeli politicians were saying and doing in the months before the Hamas attack
This April, Peter Beinart, a Jewish American journalist who writes frequently about the Middle East, penned a story called “Could Israel carry out another Nakba?” in Jewish Currents magazine. He noted that as Israel’s government under Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has lurched to the far right, the idea of expelling Palestinians has become increasingly mainstream in Israeli society.
By 2021, Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich was telling Palestinian members of the Knesset, the Israeli legislature, that they were “here by mistake — because [Israel’s founder David] Ben-Gurion didn’t finish the job and throw you out in 1948.” (Former Israeli Defense Minister Benny Gantz, now a member of Israel’s war cabinet, recognized this for what it was, saying “Smotrich wants to cause another Palestinian Nakba — for him, escalation is a desirable thing.”) And by 2022, Israel’s national security minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir, felt emboldened enough to erect campaign billboards reading “May our enemies be banished” below photos of Knesset members from Palestinian parties.
While Smotrich and Ben-Gvir (both still in their positions in government) are known extremists, Beinart emphasized that expulsionist sentiment was also flourishing in Netanyahu’s center-right Likud party, with Israel’s current Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, National Security Adviser Tzachi Hanegbi, and Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter all alluding to removing Palestinians. Beinart wrote:
In a piece in the Nation this past August, Middle East historian Anne Irfan warned that “current conditions in Israel-Palestine show some alarming parallels with the run-up to 1948.” She noted that senior figures in Israel’s far-right government were openly calling for more Palestinian expulsions:
All in all, Irfan judged the situation to be a powder keg. “All of this means that the risk of a second Nakba is at its highest in 75 years,” she wrote.
...
Short of full reoccupation, which the Israeli ambassador to the US said Israel has “no desire” for, one possibility is for Israel to take part of Gaza’s land to widen the “no-go zone” or “buffer zone” that has existed for several years inside Gaza along the perimeter fence separating the enclave and Israel. (Nobody can live there currently, and Palestinians who come too close to the fence have been shot.)
This is what Zayid predicts: “Israel’s going to take that land and be like, ‘Buffer zone,’” she told me. There’s precedent for that: Israel has previously shrunk Gaza in this way when fighting flared up. In 2012, Harvard scholar Sara Roy noted that the buffer zone had absorbed “nearly 14 percent of Gaza’s total land and at least 48 percent of total arable land.”
Two Israeli ministers, Gideon Sa’ar and Avi Dichter, have explicitly stated that this is part of Israel’s plan. “On the Gaza Strip all along, we will have a margin,” Dichter said. “And they will not be able to get in. It will be a fire zone. And no matter who you are, you will never be able to come close to the Israeli border.” He added that the width of the buffer zone would have to be decided “according to the distance of the Israeli military or the Israeli settlements.”
Palestinians fear they’re being displaced permanently. Here’s why that’s logical.
In Israel, calls to expel Palestinians have become increasingly mainstream. Many believe an expulsion like the 1948 Nakba is possible.www.vox.com
Also worth reading:
Expel all Palestinians from Gaza, recommends Israeli gov't ministry
An Intelligence Ministry document revealed by Local Call and +972 shows how population transfer to the Sinai is reaching official discussions.
'Bibi’s finished’: Benjamin Netanyahu loses core support after Hamas assault on Israel
Sorry, there is a paywall in front of that article but the things I'm saying summarize what's in there. 80% of the people in Israel blame Netanyahu for failing to prevent Hama's attack. I'm quite sure that a lot of them think as you do and believe Netanyahu and further right factions in his government allowed it to happen. That doesn't make what I'm saying wrong. It justifies the conclusion that Netanyahu doesn't have time to reduce Gaza to rubble slowly and he can't reduce it quickly because Israeli hostages are there, not to mention consequences from international sentiment against acts of genocide that some in Israel's government may be contemplating.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
BudmanTX
Well-Known Member
now this is a first step.....
get the palestinan people to the north wear they can be safe and away from Hamas with a human corridor for safety......get the people away from HAMAS so that way they can't use them as human shields...it's just a beginning...hopefully
get the palestinan people to the north wear they can be safe and away from Hamas with a human corridor for safety......get the people away from HAMAS so that way they can't use them as human shields...it's just a beginning...hopefully
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
I figure that will be the strategy, slice Gaza up into pieces and secure each one while evacuating civilians, later they will filter them at checkpoints looking for Hamas. It is the goal of Hamas to provoke Israel into creating a massacre and genocide in Gaza, they want the Palestinian civilian body count to be as high as possible. A government is supposed to do the opposite of what Hamas did or are doing, they are not acting in the interest of the people but trying to use Israel to murder them and destroy their homes. We have already seen the trouble a high civilian body count can have on public support and sentiment, even in America.
Israel will likely take control of Gaza for a time, filter the population and send some to camps who are the most fanatical. It's how the allies did it after the war and with POWs, separated out the Nazi's. They can do some political reconstruction at least before leaving the place under armed UN control. I'm not advocating this, just think it might play out that way since I don't see another likely outcome after the Israelis are finished with the place. A high civilian body count is bad not just from a humanitarian POV, it is bad for the democrats politically, generally the republicans don't give a fuck if they nuke the Palestinians. It is also bad for the prospects for peace in the middle east and will outrage hundreds of millions in the region and cause trouble with the UN and the ICC.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
One reason why they don't want to commit genocide in Gaza and why Joe is trying to avoid it, the world is watching and reacting.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Many people say it was almost a million… others 800k… Officials say 300k, less than a quarter of the muslim population of London and a lot of ‘lefties’ of the type that make the left look bad… many meme candidates. It’s true the world is watching, and rightfully so, but these protesters do not represent the the world or even the UK or even London. Not their government either.
Not suggesting anything whatsoever besides that point... but it’s the third largest city of europe, the largest if you don’t include moscow and istanbul. Of course the violence and arrests largely involved far-right.
At least they are protesting, where are the mass protests in the US, against Trump.
Anyway, good piece from less sensational media:
Former Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni: "Netanyahu Will Not Stay"
The Hamas attack has deeply traumatized Israel, and the military's response in the Gaza Strip has shifted global opinion against the country, says Tzipi Livni. In an interview, Israel's former foreign minister explains why she still has hope for a better future.
CANON_Grow
Well-Known Member
Does there come a point that it will be acknowledged what is actually happening?
This was put up on October 31st on the BBC:
The president denied reports that Israel was still bombing southern Gaza, where the UN says more than a million Gazans have fled after Israel repeatedly warned them to leave the northern part of the territory.
On Monday, UNRWA Commissioner General Philippe Lazzarini warned "no place was safe in Gaza".
"Truly speaking, the safe zone in the south is a safe zone," Mr Herzog said, denying reports from the UN that even its own shelters had come under fire.
"We were operating according to the rules of international law to ask people to move out to the safe zone, we gave them alerts, we're helping them to move out."
Asked about Israeli air strikes close to Gaza's hospitals, the president emphatically stated that hospitals themselves would not be targeted.
www.bbc.com
November 16th via AP:
Israel signals wider offensive in Gaza’s south, where hundreds of thousands have fled
KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israeli forces dropped leaflets warning Palestinians to flee parts of southern Gaza, residents said Thursday, signaling a possible expansion of their offensive to the zone where most of the territory’s population has fled to escape Israel’s bombardment and ground assault.
Meanwhile, soldiers continued searching Shifa Hospital in the north, in a raid that began early Wednesday. They displayed guns they say were found hidden in one building, but have yet to release any evidence of the central Hamas command center that Israel has said is concealed beneath the complex. Hamas and staff at the hospital, Gaza’s largest, deny the allegations.
Broadening operations to the south — where Israel already carries out daily air raids — threatens to worsen an already severe humanitarian crisis in the besieged territory. Over 1.5 million people have been internally displaced in Gaza, with most having fled to the south, where food, water and electricity are increasingly scarce.
apnews.com
A worthwhile read from Raz Segal, who "is an Israeli historian residing in the United States who directs the Master of Arts in Holocaust and Genocide Studies program at Stockton University" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raz_Segal) :
A Textbook Case of Genocide
Israel has been explicit about what it’s carrying out in Gaza. Why isn’t the world listening?
...
"In the early 20th century, for example, German colonial occupiers perpetrated a genocide in response to an uprising by the Indigenous Herero and Nama populations in southwest Africa. In 1904, General Lothar von Trotha, the German military commander, issued an “extermination order,” justified by the rationale of a “race war.” By 1908, the German authorities had murdered 10,000 Nama, and had achieved their stated goal of “destroying the Herero,” killing 65,000 Herero, 80% of the population. Gallant’s orders on October 9th were no less explicit. Israel’s goal is to destroy the Palestinians of Gaza. And those of us watching around the world are derelict in our responsibility to prevent them from doing so."
https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
Hopefully anger reduces to a level when everyone can agree that killing a baby or young child cannot be justified (and that applies to EVERY baby and young child), and that hostages and illegal detainee's (what's the difference?) must be released.
This was put up on October 31st on the BBC:
The president denied reports that Israel was still bombing southern Gaza, where the UN says more than a million Gazans have fled after Israel repeatedly warned them to leave the northern part of the territory.
On Monday, UNRWA Commissioner General Philippe Lazzarini warned "no place was safe in Gaza".
"Truly speaking, the safe zone in the south is a safe zone," Mr Herzog said, denying reports from the UN that even its own shelters had come under fire.
"We were operating according to the rules of international law to ask people to move out to the safe zone, we gave them alerts, we're helping them to move out."
Asked about Israeli air strikes close to Gaza's hospitals, the president emphatically stated that hospitals themselves would not be targeted.
Israeli President Isaac Herzog defends Gaza operation
Isaac Herzog also tells the BBC Israel has seen no progress in talks on the release of Israeli hostages.
www.bbc.com
November 16th via AP:
Israel signals wider offensive in Gaza’s south, where hundreds of thousands have fled
KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israeli forces dropped leaflets warning Palestinians to flee parts of southern Gaza, residents said Thursday, signaling a possible expansion of their offensive to the zone where most of the territory’s population has fled to escape Israel’s bombardment and ground assault.
Meanwhile, soldiers continued searching Shifa Hospital in the north, in a raid that began early Wednesday. They displayed guns they say were found hidden in one building, but have yet to release any evidence of the central Hamas command center that Israel has said is concealed beneath the complex. Hamas and staff at the hospital, Gaza’s largest, deny the allegations.
Broadening operations to the south — where Israel already carries out daily air raids — threatens to worsen an already severe humanitarian crisis in the besieged territory. Over 1.5 million people have been internally displaced in Gaza, with most having fled to the south, where food, water and electricity are increasingly scarce.
Under a communication blackout, Gaza’s 2.3 million people are cut off from each other and the world
Internet and telephone services collapsed across the Gaza Strip on Thursday for lack of fuel, the main Palestinian provider said.
apnews.com
A worthwhile read from Raz Segal, who "is an Israeli historian residing in the United States who directs the Master of Arts in Holocaust and Genocide Studies program at Stockton University" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raz_Segal) :
A Textbook Case of Genocide
Israel has been explicit about what it’s carrying out in Gaza. Why isn’t the world listening?
...
"In the early 20th century, for example, German colonial occupiers perpetrated a genocide in response to an uprising by the Indigenous Herero and Nama populations in southwest Africa. In 1904, General Lothar von Trotha, the German military commander, issued an “extermination order,” justified by the rationale of a “race war.” By 1908, the German authorities had murdered 10,000 Nama, and had achieved their stated goal of “destroying the Herero,” killing 65,000 Herero, 80% of the population. Gallant’s orders on October 9th were no less explicit. Israel’s goal is to destroy the Palestinians of Gaza. And those of us watching around the world are derelict in our responsibility to prevent them from doing so."
https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
Hopefully anger reduces to a level when everyone can agree that killing a baby or young child cannot be justified (and that applies to EVERY baby and young child), and that hostages and illegal detainee's (what's the difference?) must be released.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Nobody expects Israel to "just forget about it." They won't send a lot of ground troops into urban combat without knocking down buildings first. This is a more ambiguous situation than in Ukraine for instance, ideals are great, but often don't compete with the realities of war. For myself I'm largely disinterested in this forever war, but they must find a way to separate out Hamas from the general population. Deporting the Palestinians is a non-starter and Israel is trying to get western countries to accept them when their neighbors won't and most probably won't want to leave anyway, unless driven out by hunger and thirst. Maybe they should accept back the many settlers who came from the richest countries in the world to rip off land in the west bank from the poorest people in the world.Does there come a point that it will be acknowledged what is actually happening?
This was put up on October 31st on the BBC:
The president denied reports that Israel was still bombing southern Gaza, where the UN says more than a million Gazans have fled after Israel repeatedly warned them to leave the northern part of the territory.
On Monday, UNRWA Commissioner General Philippe Lazzarini warned "no place was safe in Gaza".
"Truly speaking, the safe zone in the south is a safe zone," Mr Herzog said, denying reports from the UN that even its own shelters had come under fire.
"We were operating according to the rules of international law to ask people to move out to the safe zone, we gave them alerts, we're helping them to move out."
Asked about Israeli air strikes close to Gaza's hospitals, the president emphatically stated that hospitals themselves would not be targeted.
Israeli President Isaac Herzog defends Gaza operation
Isaac Herzog also tells the BBC Israel has seen no progress in talks on the release of Israeli hostages.
November 16th via AP:
Israel signals wider offensive in Gaza’s south, where hundreds of thousands have fled
KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israeli forces dropped leaflets warning Palestinians to flee parts of southern Gaza, residents said Thursday, signaling a possible expansion of their offensive to the zone where most of the territory’s population has fled to escape Israel’s bombardment and ground assault.
Meanwhile, soldiers continued searching Shifa Hospital in the north, in a raid that began early Wednesday. They displayed guns they say were found hidden in one building, but have yet to release any evidence of the central Hamas command center that Israel has said is concealed beneath the complex. Hamas and staff at the hospital, Gaza’s largest, deny the allegations.
Broadening operations to the south — where Israel already carries out daily air raids — threatens to worsen an already severe humanitarian crisis in the besieged territory. Over 1.5 million people have been internally displaced in Gaza, with most having fled to the south, where food, water and electricity are increasingly scarce.
Under a communication blackout, Gaza’s 2.3 million people are cut off from each other and the world
Internet and telephone services collapsed across the Gaza Strip on Thursday for lack of fuel, the main Palestinian provider said.
A worthwhile read from Raz Segal, who "is an Israeli historian residing in the United States who directs the Master of Arts in Holocaust and Genocide Studies program at Stockton University" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raz_Segal) :
A Textbook Case of Genocide
Israel has been explicit about what it’s carrying out in Gaza. Why isn’t the world listening?
...
"In the early 20th century, for example, German colonial occupiers perpetrated a genocide in response to an uprising by the Indigenous Herero and Nama populations in southwest Africa. In 1904, General Lothar von Trotha, the German military commander, issued an “extermination order,” justified by the rationale of a “race war.” By 1908, the German authorities had murdered 10,000 Nama, and had achieved their stated goal of “destroying the Herero,” killing 65,000 Herero, 80% of the population. Gallant’s orders on October 9th were no less explicit. Israel’s goal is to destroy the Palestinians of Gaza. And those of us watching around the world are derelict in our responsibility to prevent them from doing so."
https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
Hopefully anger reduces to a level when everyone can agree that killing a baby or young child cannot be justified (and that applies to EVERY baby and young child), and that hostages and illegal detainee's (what's the difference?) must be released.
They don't just need a settlement in Gaza but to remove settlements from the WestBank too or face sanctions. That was land given by Jordan to the Palestinians for a new homeland, but the Israeli government was involved in a conspiracy with radicals to steal from the Palestinians. Only when there is some justice will there be peace.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
I hope the proven selective outrage about civilian casualties and the classic appeal to emotion “but the children, oh the poor babies” (isn’t a dead defenseless 30-something as bad) will extend to future wars as well. It would effecfively end all traditional wars. World peace. Even if the enemy comes to slaughter and rape your children in front of you, can’t start a war against such enemies if they hide among the civilians who elected them. We’ll just have to send in a Terminator or a Judge Dredd.
I said it months before this war (roger waters thread iirc), if you truly want peace in the region, for children to be safe from terrorists and bombs, one side needs a decisive win. Else it will remain what you labelled it, a forever war.
No, it was handed to the Israelis when the Arab world tried to commit genocide and wipe the Jews off the map and got their asses kicked. Like the Sinai they could have had it back if only they did the same Egypt did, renounce violence. People often talk about how many Palestinians had to flee, but rarely mention the hundreds of thousands of Jews who had to flee from arab nations in the area when those nations attacked Israel and Jews everywhere they could. It’s morally and ethically and logically completely fair they keep some land. Israel and the Jews didn’t ask for the situation where Israel is the only place they can live without anti-semitism. Which makes the following a rather absurd suggestion.
The government or the ever less subtle anti-semitic population? And that’s again very selective, many people living in settlements can’t afford to live in the cities, a first-world problem we’re not unfamiliar with, And when are you Canadians moving back to those richest countries in Europe? No acceptance problem here, we love Canadians so much embarrased Americans here say they’re Canadian.
I said it months before this war (roger waters thread iirc), if you truly want peace in the region, for children to be safe from terrorists and bombs, one side needs a decisive win. Else it will remain what you labelled it, a forever war.
Last edited:
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Not-so-fun facts:
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org
Jewish Refugees from Arab Countries
Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
What do you advocate, genocide? Deporting the Palestinians. So, you are saying it is land conquered from another country in war which is in violation of UN law. The land was given over to the Palestinians for a homeland and the state of Israel conspired with fanatics to rip it off. Israel doesn't have an international legal leg to stand on in this matter. The number of kids they killed in Gaza in a month is multiples of the number of Ukrainian kids the Russians killed. It's pretty bad when you can compare Israel with Russia and the Russians look better.
I'm not an "antisemite", which literally means to be prejudiced against semitic people, who also include Arabs, Osama Bid Laden was an archetypical semitic person. There won't be peace without justice, the terror and injustice will continue, on both sides. Right now, I'm more concerned about keeping civilian casualties to a minimum, something Hamas is making hard to do, the more dead Palestinians, the better for them. That was why they staged the made for TV terrorism attack designed to outrage a nation and provoke a response.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Where did I suggest you are an antisemite? You seem actually rather impartial in this matter, perhaps indifferent because there’s no gold guys to simp for, else I’d suggest a bit dog hollers. And where did I suggest Israel should commit genocide, is that your idea of a decisive win?
You may want to brush up on your history before you make statements so selective and incomplete it becomes near-nonsensical, like Jordan giving west bank to Palestinians:
arabcenterdc.org
Exactly why I said morally, ethicall, logically and specifically not legal. Land conquered from agressors trying to wipe you out, not what you make of it. Read the link in my previous post. When are those people getting back their land and homes?? Where do you suggest they go to? If Ukraine were (able) to defeat Russia entirely I would have no moral objections against them annexing a piece of Russia. Consider it reparations, a buffer zone. Jordan handed the Westbank to Israel in 1967. And do no confuse or conflate my statement with support for settlers, I’m just not a big fan of forming islamic states. Who should Israel give it back to… which Palestinians? <—Rethorical question. I and many others would be happy with ”Jordan is Palestine”.
You may want to brush up on your history before you make statements so selective and incomplete it becomes near-nonsensical, like Jordan giving west bank to Palestinians:
The “Jordan Is Palestine” Idea Resurfaces Again
Relations between Jordan and Palestine have evolved through a series of changes and challenges that continue over the years. While Palestine before 1948 used to be the focus of attention because of its strategic position and religious importance, today the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan—which is...
arabcenterdc.org
BudmanTX
Well-Known Member
thanks for the read, it is an idea.....Where did I suggest you are an antisemite? You seem actually rather impartial in this matter, perhaps indifferent because there’s no gold guys to simp for, else I’d suggest a bit dog hollers. And where did I suggest Israel should commit genocide, is that your idea of a decisive win?
Exactly why I said morally, ethicall, logically and specifically not legal. Land conquered from agressors trying to wipe you out, not what you make of it. Read the link in my previous post. When are those people getting back their land and homes?? Where do you suggest they go to? If Ukraine were (able) to defeat Russia entirely I would have no moral objections against them annexing a piece of Russia. Consider it reparations, a buffer zone. Jordan handed the Westbank to Israel in 1967. And do no confuse or conflate my statement with support for settlers, I’m just not a big fan of forming islamic states. Who should Israel give it back to… which Palestinians? <—Rethorical question. I and many others would be happy with ”Jordan is Palestine”.
You may want to brush up on your history before you make statements so selective and incomplete it becomes near-nonsensical, like Jordan giving west bank to Palestinians:
The “Jordan Is Palestine” Idea Resurfaces Again
Relations between Jordan and Palestine have evolved through a series of changes and challenges that continue over the years. While Palestine before 1948 used to be the focus of attention because of its strategic position and religious importance, today the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan—which is...
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
The bottom line is the people living there get to make the call according to the UN and since they invaded, the Israeli's sought to "change the facts on the ground" and American presidents have fought long and hard with Israel over it. Whenever someone criticizes Israel, you often bring up antisemitism and that does not apply here, my criticisms are valid and shared by many, even those who support Israel. After 1945 international law was established and it made such territorial annexations illegal, for Israel, and Russia.Where did I suggest you are an antisemite? You seem actually rather impartial in this matter, perhaps indifferent because there’s no gold guys to simp for, else I’d suggest a bit dog hollers. And where did I suggest Israel should commit genocide, is that your idea of a decisive win?
Exactly why I said morally, ethicall, logically and specifically not legal. Land conquered from agressors trying to wipe you out, not what you make of it. Read the link in my previous post. When are those people getting back their land and homes?? Where do you suggest they go to? If Ukraine were (able) to defeat Russia entirely I would have no moral objections against them annexing a piece of Russia. Consider it reparations, a buffer zone. Jordan handed the Westbank to Israel in 1967. And do no confuse or conflate my statement with support for settlers, I’m just not a big fan of forming islamic states. Who should Israel give it back to… which Palestinians? <—Rethorical question. I and many others would be happy with ”Jordan is Palestine”.
You may want to brush up on your history before you make statements so selective and incomplete it becomes near-nonsensical, like Jordan giving west bank to Palestinians:
The “Jordan Is Palestine” Idea Resurfaces Again
Relations between Jordan and Palestine have evolved through a series of changes and challenges that continue over the years. While Palestine before 1948 used to be the focus of attention because of its strategic position and religious importance, today the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan—which is...
Personally, I'm sick of this war which has been ongoing all my life and I'm sure those involved and affected by it are sicker of it than me. I can tell you how the peace was won by the allies in Europe and Japan and how the Northern Ireland problem was solved, and it wasn't done the way the Israelis are doing it.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Hundreds of civilians died in bombings of Rotterdam, allied bombs. Just a random example… Was Japan not nuked by the US, twice? There’s no situation just like it, to make it a fair comparison you have to be creative and imagine all the nazis in one big urban area with its leaders in bunkers. Any western nation wouldn’t have responded in a very similar manner.
In my post to which you respond hollering I mentioned anti-semitic in regards to the populations from which many jews have fled to Israel. The double standard I have pointed out long before this war also is well researched. Objectively verifiable in this thread, not namecalling or even judging in any way. Not even your comment about those festival goers.
I don’t believe anyone here or wherever really “is an” antisemitic just as I don’t believe, with exceptions, people “are“ racist. Many (read everyone) however do subscribe to or are affected in some extend by anti-semitic ideas and tropes and is relevant in nearly every article or media item whether it’s here or on Al Jazeera. That elephant in the room is not mine.
Which applies to one state annexing territory from another state. Just as it didn’t to the state you claimed was in a position to give the remaining part of Palestine to anyone. But again, never suggested it was legal or not. Perhaps better example, if Trump gets elected and puts Tucker in charge of the military attacks on Canada and you kick their asses, I’ll have no moral objections against them losing ground literally.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
I was speaking of post war treatment by the allies, with Gaza you have a fish in a barrel situation and no escape allowed with blurred lines between civilians and combatants, since most of the population hates Israel anyway. Antisemitism is widespread in Christian and post Christian societies I've found it historically promulgated by the Catholic and orthodox churches.
Israel was enforcing a modern equivalent of the Warsaw Getto with rockets in Gaza, and it looks like it might end the same way. The Music festival is like the settlements surrounding the place easily within rocket and mortar range and someone fucked up IMO. Even without the Hamas attack it was a risk not worth taking, by all accounts Bebe fucked up here and it is doubtful he will survive, they didn't act on the intelligence for some reason.