Plants want low PPFD??

bignugs68

Well-Known Member
  • 3 photoperiods, been grown 4 gens outside.
  • 3gal fab pots with 50% mix(coco pith, peat moss, vermiculite, Lyme)40% Epsoma Organic starter plus, 5% perlite
  • 2x Gecilioran G1000 100wart(301H diodes, less efficient than 2024 SF1000)
  • iPower 32"x32"x63" tent
So first indoor grow. And Im 6 weeks in. Plants are almost at height for flip to flower. I used "Photon" app, says 245-280 ppfd. From what I'm reading most people are giving 300-500ppfd during veg before flower. So I'm curious how many of you have had to keep ppfd low compared to the norm.
PXL_20240305_001059452.jpg

I did light bleach them some bc I just got my 2nd G1000 light. Had first 70%, dropped to 50% with both. Wasn't enough so now they are @40%. Each.

TLDR: Have any of you had to keep PPFD extra low? I wonder if it's bc they've been bred outdoors in less consistent light conditions.
 

Bud man 43

Well-Known Member
When I bring new clones into the flower room from the closet- I dim my lights to 50% or so and bring them up a little at a time for a couple weeks until I have everything on 100%
If something gets too close to the light- I will dim that fixture-
 

1212ham

Well-Known Member
Photon or Photone? Assuming it's Photone, did you use the correct diffuser paper over the light sensor? How close are the lights?
Keep in mind that the accuracy will depend on the model of your phone.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Photon or Photone? Assuming it's Photone, did you use the correct diffuser paper over the light sensor? How close are the lights?
Keep in mind that the accuracy will depend on the model of your phone.
Agree 1000%.

If the phone + software combination has not been calibrated against a known good source, the readings should be taken as suspect.

I've tested Photone twice, traded email with the programmer (I've been a software engineer for 30± years so I have some understanding of the problem that he's trying to solve), and strongly recommend that users compare their readings to either a light meter + conversion (PDF attached) or a PAR meter.

In the past few months, I've seen three growers using Photone and they readings were significantly higher than expected, meaning that they were under lighting there plants. Interestingly, when I tested Photone, it was 16% high.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
  • 3 photoperiods, been grown 4 gens outside.
  • 3gal fab pots with 50% mix(coco pith, peat moss, vermiculite, Lyme)40% Epsoma Organic starter plus, 5% perlite
  • 2x Gecilioran G1000 100wart(301H diodes, less efficient than 2024 SF1000)
  • iPower 32"x32"x63" tent
So first indoor grow. And Im 6 weeks in. Plants are almost at height for flip to flower. I used "Photon" app, says 245-280 ppfd. From what I'm reading most people are giving 300-500ppfd during veg before flower. So I'm curious how many of you have had to keep ppfd low compared to the norm.
For my first few grows, I followed the conventional wisdom of 300-500 in veg. I even followed the recommendations at growlightmeter.com. As my understanding of cannabis grow lighting increased, I changed how I light my grows and I'm a high light grower - by day 42, my plants will be approaching 1kµmol.

[checks grow journal]

Funny - I was speaking "generally".

From my light data:

1710102204103.png

Close enough…

Yes, 999µmol and a DLI of 86. Cannabis loves light.

Per your statement, most growers are at modest light levels because that's what most sites recommend and what other growers recommend. You can't go wrong at modest light levels and, if you keep everything else in good shape, you'll get a modest crop. I see this repeatedly in the two cites that I frequent.

Research demonstrates us that, assuming light is the constraint, crop quality and crop yield increase in almost direct proportion to increased DLI.

Most growers follow the advice of growers who have been doing it longer or web sites that have recommendations. Once you start looking at what research tells us about cannabis, it's a very, very different story. I have ideas as to why there is such a dichotomy but that's not the topic here — the issue is that cannabis is a light whore can take advantage of huge amounts of light and as DLI increases, crop quality and crop yield increase.

Per above, if you're using Photone, calibrate it against a known good source. Alternatively, get a Uni-T Bluetooth light meter and use the attached PDF that I wrote that helps explain the lux to PPDF conversion.

I did light bleach them some bc I just got my 2nd G1000 light. Had first 70%, dropped to 50% with both. Wasn't enough so now they are @40%. Each.

TLDR: Have any of you had to keep PPFD extra low? I wonder if it's bc they've been bred outdoors in less consistent light conditions.
You have a problem in your grow environment.

Re. taking time to increase light levels - I can't think of why that would be needed because the plant is not situationally aware so it doesn't understand any thing about its environment. Plants can't think, they react. Bruce Bugbee was asked about slowly raising light levels. Two parts to his reply. First was that they take plants at 600µmol and move them to >1000µmol in "a day or two". The second issue, addressing the idea of turning lights up gradually during the day, paraphrasing "There ready to go to work as soon as they put their boots on."

The light saturation point for cannabis is taken to be 800-1000µmol. When the plant is well established, it should be able to process that level of light. Even if your light readings are accurate, the fact that your plant is hitting its LSP at ≈ 25% of the low end of the 800-1k range, I would look at the environment to see why the plant can't process light.

[the light went on]

I'm a member of another forum and, about a year ago, a grower on that forum could not get his plants past 400±. Every thing looked good but, after a series of questions from soil growers, they figured out that his soil had pockets that were hydrophobic. Any chance you've got the same issue?

Unfortunately, I know very little about soil growing (RDWC) but what about the other factors?

This graphic is from a Future Cannabis Project video. If I might suggest, run down the list and post the data for that parameter.

Light allow a plant to generate good, VPD controls how much water moves through a plant. Are you tracking VPD? If not, what are temperature and RH values?

10 Parameters of Growth.png
 

Attachments

bignugs68

Well-Known Member
Photon or Photone? Assuming it's Photone, did you use the correct diffuser paper over the light sensor? How close are the lights?
Keep in mind that the accuracy will depend on the model of your phone.
I'm definitely aware Photone is a "rough" measuring tool. Was unaware of diffuser paper etc. seems I have some homework to do.

Thank you Delps8!! I am concerned of potential hydrophobic spots, bc I've been light watering. Id over watered them once before so I've been very careful, 8-14oz a night before lights out and they started growing again.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
I'm definitely aware Photone is a "rough" measuring tool. Was unaware of diffuser paper etc. seems I have some homework to do.
$32 for the Uni-T Bluetooth is money well spent. I have the older model and an Apogee. I use the Apogee daily but realize it's spendy so the Uni-T Bluetooth would be my weapon of choice. The sensor in the Uni-T is stated to be 5%± and, with a conversion factor, it can get you in the right range very quickly. After that, the plant will let you know.

When I tested Photone, they didn't specify the weight or brightness of the paper. I tested with #20, #22, and #24 and gave them the results of my testing. The fact that they did not specify those characteristics did not buoy my confidence in the product.

After that, I asked about the basis for their light levels recommendations. Having already spent many hours reading "the research", I had an idea of what their response would be. Based the response, I concluded that product was not suited to my needs and I deleted the licenses they had sent me.

Oh, as of 2022, the diffuser was needed for iPhones but not for Android. I don't if that's changed.

Thank you Delps8!! I am concerned of potential hydrophobic spots, bc I've been light watering. Id over watered them once before so I've been very careful, 8-14oz a night before lights out and they started growing again.
Happy to help and it's great that things are looking up.
 

Lou66

Well-Known Member
Agree 1000%.

If the phone + software combination has not been calibrated against a known good source, the readings should be taken as suspect.

I've tested Photone twice, traded email with the programmer (I've been a software engineer for 30± years so I have some understanding of the problem that he's trying to solve), and strongly recommend that users compare their readings to either a light meter + conversion (PDF attached) or a PAR meter.

In the past few months, I've seen three growers using Photone and they readings were significantly higher than expected, meaning that they were under lighting there plants. Interestingly, when I tested Photone, it was 16% high.
If it reads incorrectly then it will be reproducible. In that sense it is the same as a luc meter: incorrect but consistent. So if you know that "your grow" is good at a reading of 600 potato units and the next cycle you set your light to the same intensity using that meter it is a valueable tool.

And tbh, do we care if the reading is 20 % off? It gets you in the ballpark.
In this case it shouldn't even matter if the measurement error is 100 %. That would be 600 umol/m²s. Perfect for this stage of growth .
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
If it reads incorrectly then it will be reproducible. In that sense it is the same as a luc meter: incorrect but consistent. So if you know that "your grow" is good at a reading of 600 potato units and the next cycle you set your light to the same intensity using that meter it is a valueable tool.
Sure, that's the concept of a consistent error and it's a fundamental part of using instruments. If you can calibrate it against a known good source, that helps. I'm doing that now with my PulseGrow and my AC Infinity Controller 69.

My concern with Photone is that it's marketed as a sound solution and I've found it to be markedly inaccurate…or not. I'm a longtime software engineer (30+ years) including a stint for Apple so I'm all for products that people can use on an iPhone. But I also look at growers who have no idea that the product that they're banking on could be completely out to lunch. I see that a lot - growers reporting 1200+ µmol in ambient CO2. People tossing around numbers like that that are obviously very wrong doesn't do anyone any good.

And tbh, do we care if the reading is 20 % off? It gets you in the ballpark.
How do you know it 20%. Who knows if it's 20%? I didn't until I tested it and it was 16% high.
A lot of growers won't even think to test it so they're leaving money on the table, so to speak.

In this case it shouldn't even matter if the measurement error is 100 %. That would be 600 umol/m²s. Perfect for this stage of growth .
If that gets you the results that you want, great.

It's hard make the argument that it's OK to be 100% incorrect with a straight face. On the other hand, if was looking for a reason to justify not doing something I would claim that it's OK that there are a lot of errors because it's close enough.

Funny that you come up with 600µmol. The chart below is based on the cited paper (attached). The change in yield is shown in the third column. If 600µmol gets you, say, 100 grams of yield, would you refuse to turn up your lights to get your plants 700µmol with the understanding that it might get you a 5.6+4.9=10.5% increase in yield? How about going to 16% yield± at 750 PPFD?

1710115144055.png

Cannabis will grow, in ambient CO2, at light levels between the "light compensation point" of which is taken to be 64µmol and "light saturation point" which is taken to be 800-1000µmol. In the hundreds of hours that I've spent learning about cannabis grow lighting, the 600 µmol figure does not appear in any research that I've come across. It's all over the marketing material and light vendors use it but no mention of that in the research.

On the other hand, research demonstrates that there is a direct, almost linear relationship between DLI and crop yield and quality.

I've attached research that provides some insight into the issue. Lots of interesting data in here but the first para from the Conclusions section

"The results also indicate that the relationship between LI and cannabis yield does not saturate within the practical limits of LI used in indoor production. Increasing LI also increased harvest index and the size and density of the apical inflorescence; both markers for increasing quality. However, there were no and minor LI treatment effects on potency of cannabinoids and terpenes, respectively. This means that growers may be able to vastly increase yields by increasing LI but maintain a relatively consistent secondary metabolite profile in their marketable products."

From the intro:
"This may be especially evident given that dry inflorescence yield increased linearly with increasing canopy-level PPFD up to 1,800 μmol·m−2·s−1, while leaf-level photosynthesis saturated well-below 1,800 μmol·m−2·s−1. The density of the apical inflorescence and harvest index also increased linearly with increasing LI, resulting in higher-quality marketable tissues and less superfluous tissue to dispose of."

They got more, better quality weed as light levels increased and they did their testing in ambient CO2 with light levels up to 1800µmol.

Going back to 600µmol - cannabis will do fine at that level but I would never recommend that light level when a grower can significantly improve their crop yield and crop quality just by turning the lights up.

My light levels?

1710115741996.png Day 69, week 9.6, day 22 in flower.

I switched to sampling colas a yesterday.

Here's the data from a 9 point grid sample:
1710115842222.png

And from later yesterday
1710115779306.png


Cannabis is a light whore loves light and research and growers, in both ambient CO2 and enhanced CO2 environments, see improved results when light levels are increased, up to the light saturation point, assuming that light is the limiting factor. How growers take advantage of that is completely up to them.
 

Attachments

1212ham

Well-Known Member
I'm definitely aware Photone is a "rough" measuring tool. Was unaware of diffuser paper etc. seems I have some homework to do.

Thank you Delps8!! I am concerned of potential hydrophobic spots, bc I've been light watering. Id over watered them once before so I've been very careful, 8-14oz a night before lights out and they started growing again.
FWIW, a few of us here use the UNI-T bluetooth lux meter that Delps8 mentioned. It pairs with a good free app, PPFD Meter.

I found this on the filter paper...

"If you wish to build a diffuser yourself, you must use white paper with a weight of 80 g/m² or 22 lbs. If you're based in the US and are looking to buy some paper, we can recommend this one: Walmart Pen + Gear Copy Paper. Check our instruction video for details on how to proceed."

 

bignugs68

Well-Known Member
If it reads incorrectly then it will be reproducible. In that sense it is the same as a luc meter: incorrect but consistent. So if you know that "your grow" is good at a reading of 600 potato units and the next cycle you set your light to the same intensity using that meter it is a valueable tool.

And tbh, do we care if the reading is 20 % off? It gets you in the ballpark.
In this case it shouldn't even matter if the measurement error is 100 %. That would be 600 umol/m²s. Perfect for this stage of growth .
Yeah I would love to have the Xtra $30-150 for instruments and tools lol. I started from scratch, so I got about $490 in this hobby so far.

Ya know it's funny, I thought growing indoors would be easier having the environment control; but outside I let nature take it's course, so felt much easier :lol:

@1212ham thank you growmie!! I'll have to get this. Next thing I'm hunting for a goddamn reliable soil pH meter that isn't $100+. I've bought the orange relitest one($13) and I've bought the relitest pH, NPK soil sample+pill+water color match for readings. Can't trust either of them bc the soil shit is the same murky color that could be 5.8-6.9 lol.
 
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Delps8

Well-Known Member
Yeah I would love to have the Xtra $30-150 for instruments and tools lol. I started from scratch, so I got about $490 in this hobby so far.

Ya know it's funny, I thought growing indoors would be easier having the environment control; but outside I let nature take it's course, so felt much easier :lol:

@1212ham thank you growmie!! I'll have to get this. Next thing I'm hunting for a goddamn reliable soil pH meter that isn't $100+. I've bought the orange relitest one($13) and I've bought the relitest pH, NPK soil sample+pill+water color match for readings. Can't trust either of them bc the soil shit is the same murky color that could be 5.8-6.9 lol.
Indoors is tough - you're responsible for everything. Even worse, you can't blame bad weather!
 

Lou66

Well-Known Member
How do you know it 20%. Who knows if it's 20%? I didn't until I tested it and it was 16% high.
That's my point. I don't know and it doesn't matter. I look at my plants, then the meter and back to the plants. If 900 is good for my conditions then i tune the light to get 900.

Do you care to elaborate why photone is conceptually flawed? You repeated that multiple times now but offered no further explanation than 'trust me, I'm an engineer'.
I'm interested because I don't see much benefit over using a lux meter that takes a measurement at a single point in the spectrum and makes a lot of assumptions how the rest of the spectrum looks to calculate its reading.
 

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
  • 3 photoperiods, been grown 4 gens outside.
  • 3gal fab pots with 50% mix(coco pith, peat moss, vermiculite, Lyme)40% Epsoma Organic starter plus, 5% perlite
  • 2x Gecilioran G1000 100wart(301H diodes, less efficient than 2024 SF1000)
  • iPower 32"x32"x63" tent
So first indoor grow. And Im 6 weeks in. Plants are almost at height for flip to flower. I used "Photon" app, says 245-280 ppfd. From what I'm reading most people are giving 300-500ppfd during veg before flower. So I'm curious how many of you have had to keep ppfd low compared to the norm.
View attachment 5376739

I did light bleach them some bc I just got my 2nd G1000 light. Had first 70%, dropped to 50% with both. Wasn't enough so now they are @40%. Each.

TLDR: Have any of you had to keep PPFD extra low? I wonder if it's bc they've been bred outdoors in less consistent light conditions.
Id stop shooting for numbers and start looking for signs of happy and healthy plant; no matter what other growers can manage in veg you need to see how much you can push yours; even if youre on someone elses numbers if your plant cant take it then it cant take it.

Youve also not given any kind of indication of temps and rh in your grow, controlling these and vpd is essential for giving higher intensity. As a general measure; when ever you give more light to a plant which is in good growth youd have to increase temps a little.
 

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
  • 3 photoperiods, been grown 4 gens outside.
  • 3gal fab pots with 50% mix(coco pith, peat moss, vermiculite, Lyme)40% Epsoma Organic starter plus, 5% perlite
  • 2x Gecilioran G1000 100wart(301H diodes, less efficient than 2024 SF1000)
  • iPower 32"x32"x63" tent
So first indoor grow. And Im 6 weeks in. Plants are almost at height for flip to flower. I used "Photon" app, says 245-280 ppfd. From what I'm reading most people are giving 300-500ppfd during veg before flower. So I'm curious how many of you have had to keep ppfd low compared to the norm.
View attachment 5376739

I did light bleach them some bc I just got my 2nd G1000 light. Had first 70%, dropped to 50% with both. Wasn't enough so now they are @40%. Each.

TLDR: Have any of you had to keep PPFD extra low? I wonder if it's bc they've been bred outdoors in less consistent light conditions.
They don't look light bleached to me, more like pale from not enough nutes.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
That's my point. I don't know and it doesn't matter. I look at my plants, then the meter and back to the plants. If 900 is good for my conditions then i tune the light to get 900.
I can make that same argument and it's a valid argument as long as I limit the problem I'm trying to solve.

One of the downsides to that approach is that it's not information that can be used other than in the present circumstance. If you're using a meter that has a repeatable but known error, that's OK but how do you use those readings in another meter that has a different variance?

Your reading of 900µmol may not be 900µmol. It could be 740µmol or 1200µmol. In this case, if I have the same model of phone, there's a very high likelihood that I'll get the same result. On the other hand, if I don't have the same hardware, I may not get the same result. Or I might.

The response of "That's OK, it's for me and my grow" is completely defensible. It's not an argument that I would particularly make but, it is defensible.


Do you care to elaborate why photone is conceptually flawed? You repeated that multiple times now but offered no further explanation than 'trust me, I'm an engineer'.
I'm interested because I don't see much benefit over using a lux meter that takes a measurement at a single point in the spectrum and makes a lot of assumptions how the rest of the spectrum looks to calculate its reading.
What Photone is doing is conceptually the same as a lux meter + a conversion factor. The downside to writing software that uses hardware of unknown quality is that the software is dependent on the accuracy of the underlying sensor. Alternatively, the programmer can "write to the hardware" which can be advantageous but which can also be a very bad idea. In the case of a major phone manufacturer, there's stability and accuracy in the sensors that they're using, in theory. In reality, that's not the case. At times Photone has been shown to be accurate, at times it isn't.

The biggest issue, according to their programmer, was that in the Android world, "there are 20,000 devices" that he needed to deal with. I didn't ask for additional info and I didn't ask why he cared about the chip. The latter is important because of the dangers of "writing to the hardware". You just don't do that unless you are willing to accept the downsides. Instead of trying to get data from the hardware, programmers should be calling the operating system for the data. You write to the hardware when you need optimal performance and are willing to make the business tradeoff of getting an improvement in performance, by going around the operating system, but are also willing to accept the risk and cost of having to modify your hardware when your code blows up because the manufacturer changed something on the chip.

A key design factor with a PAR sensor is called the cosine angle. I have not looked behind that curtain much at all but it describes how a sensor is able to capture light coming in at other than a 90° angle. The diffuser is needed because the chip in a phone is not designed to pick up light coming in as far off axis as is the sensor on a PAR meter. That's another source of inaccuracy and, gen that it's required for iPhones but not required for Android, that indicates that it's not quite a slam dunk solution.

The need for the diffuser is called a "kludge" in the software business. Modern vernacular might be to cal it a "hack" but the modern usage of "hack" has positive connotations. It's not a selling point that you need a diffuser. It's a workaround that's needed so overcome a fundamental shortcoming. When they first released the product, then called "Korona" BTW, they didn't even specify what weight and brightness to use. Even now, the accuracy of the product is based on cutting a strip of paper and looping it around the phone. Put that in front of a team in a design review and there's going to be a lot of raised eyebrows. And we see the practical side of it - many people are unaware of it so they get readings that are even more incorrect.

I'm not particularly keen on waving my $1000 phone a grow tent. That's my personal choice about my very old phone but, again, in the bigger picture, I'd much rather have a $32 meter in a grow tent than a mobile phone.

The other side of the coin is to use the Uni-T, or something similar, and use a conversion factor. Can that combo be wrong? Absolutely. The grower might not use the right conversation factor but the Uni-T has it's own diffuser and, as I understand (yup, I haven't bought one yet - strike that, I just ordered one), it the meter has a decent pieces of software that lets you record samples. That's a handy feature - I turn on dictation on my iPhone and yell at the phone to record my PPFD. :-)

Bottom line - your argument about constant error is completely valid. It makes transferability impossible but it does have a valid use case. Instead of spending $5 and putting a paper wrapper around a mobile phone, for $32 you can get a purpose built product that does not require the user to put a strip of paper around it and which provides an output which is transferable.

Over the past few months, I've seen more growers with problems in their grow who are using Photone. Some of the light levels are absurd - 1200µmol from a TS1000 or somesuch. The fact that the grower is using Photone makes it harder for the grower because, in their mind, they're getting all this great light on their plant when, in reality, it's completely divorced from reality. For a yutz like me who wants to help troubleshoot the grow, how do I tell that person that their light readings are completely off the wall? I promise you, it sucks. Understandably, the grower is skeptical because some rando is saying that the numbers are wrong when that can't be right because the website says…

In that situation, it ends up being, perhaps, a cause of the problem and can be an impediment to solving the problem.

No thanks.
 
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