There is some talk in that article about this case being part of an effort to expand the circle of people held accountable for mass shootings. If only we could find a way to include lawmakers who act as if thoughts and prayers are the most they can do. But that's another matter. The judge said holding parents who knew of the danger, had been warned ahead of the act and failed to take proactive preventive action should be held accountable "as a deterrent" for others. I don't know if there is data to support the idea of deterrence but the judge seems to think there is.James and Jennifer Crumbley, parents of Michigan school shooter, sentencing
Jennifer and James Crumbley, the parents of Michigan high school shooter Ethan Crumbley, were sentenced to 10-15 years in prison after being found guilty of involuntary manslaughter.edition.cnn.com
A very Christian sentence that judges and punishes and doesn’t make the world a safer place. imo.
I don't know all the details but the defense attorney claimed there is no evidence the parents knew about his plans. Regardless, this 'wider' punishing seems another form of more severe punishment, which has proven to be ineffective when it comes to reducing crime rates. I don't see how locking up the parents for over a decade is going to change the many factors that do play a role. Never liked the 'we need to set an example' (and therefor longer sentence) argument either. They get punished for what someone else did, and then the sentence is based on what others might do or neglect to do. Christian free-willy way of non-addressing the root issues.had been warned ahead of the act
Just because what you said made it pop in my head...I don't know all the details but the defense attorney claimed there is no evidence the parents knew about his plans. Regardless, this 'wider' punishing seems another form of more severe punishment, which has proven to be ineffective when it comes to reducing crime rates. I don't see how locking up the parents for over a decade is going to change the many factors that do play a role. Never liked the 'we need to set an example' (and therefor longer sentence) argument either. They get punished for what someone else did, and then the sentence is based on what others might do or neglect to do. Christian free-willy way of non-addressing the root issues.
Sounds like a false equivalence, of a different order. Weapon training and radicalizing is just being a good republican is it not?Just because what you said made it pop in my head...
Isn't that how terrorist cells work? The cell might get training, weapons, radicalization from a different cell, but don't necessarily know what the other cell is going to do with it.
I haven’t delved into the facts of the case at all but I would have to ask “what were the warning signs and were they blatantly ignored”? If the answer is yes, then punishment is warranted IMO, incarceration is how some people are punished.Sounds like a false equivalence, of a different order. Weapon training and radicalizing is just being a good republican is it not?
One of the arguments for the sentences was the lack of remorse. Which too fits my point. Assholes get longer sentences than people whose parents instilled some decency and morals in them. It's not like I care about the parents. Locking people up that aren't a threat to society instead of taking drastic measures to prevent the next shooting doesn't address the actual threat to society.
How are the parents not a threat to society? They provided a 15 year old with a firearm and failed to ensure it was secured safely, especially after getting called into the school. It would be different if it was a 18 year old that would be legal age and bought the firearm themselves, but they were responsible for securing the firearm.Sounds like a false equivalence, of a different order. Weapon training and radicalizing is just being a good republican is it not?
One of the arguments for the sentences was the lack of remorse. Which too fits my point. Assholes get longer sentences than people whose parents instilled some decency and morals in them. It's not like I care about the parents. Locking people up that aren't a threat to society instead of taking drastic measures to prevent the next shooting doesn't address the actual threat to society.
I read through articles on the case a while ago and don't want to do so again. I came away from those articles thinking the parents knew ahead of time that their kid was a threat, not only because of his home life but because of what the school told them was happening there. The standard that had to be met at trial is:I don't know all the details but the defense attorney claimed there is no evidence the parents knew about his plans. Regardless, this 'wider' punishing seems another form of more severe punishment, which has proven to be ineffective when it comes to reducing crime rates. I don't see how locking up the parents for over a decade is going to change the many factors that do play a role. Never liked the 'we need to set an example' (and therefor longer sentence) argument either. They get punished for what someone else did, and then the sentence is based on what others might do or neglect to do. Christian free-willy way of non-addressing the root issues.
I’d have more respect for this judge’s decision if even one legislator were currently awaiting trial for the Jan 6 conspiracy.Sounds like a false equivalence, of a different order. Weapon training and radicalizing is just being a good republican is it not?
One of the arguments for the sentences was the lack of remorse. Which too fits my point. Assholes get longer sentences than people whose parents instilled some decency and morals in them. It's not like I care about the parents. Locking people up that aren't a threat to society instead of taking drastic measures to prevent the next shooting doesn't address the actual threat to society.
Stuff like this that the mom said he just needs to hide it better or something like thatI haven’t delved into the facts of the case at all but I would have to ask “what were the warning signs and were they blatantly ignored”? If the answer is yes, then punishment is warranted IMO, incarceration is how some people are punished.
Ethan Crumbley sketched images of a gun, a bullet and a wounded man on a math paper, accompanied by despondent phrases: “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me. Blood everywhere. My life is useless.”
Ethan Crumbley had told a counselor he was sad — a grandmother had died and his only friend suddenly had moved away — but said the drawing only reflected his interest in creating video games.
His parents were called to a hasty meeting at school that lasted less than 15 minutes. They did not mention that the gun resembled one James Crumbley had purchased just four days earlier, a Sig Sauer 9 mm.
Mother and son had fired 50 rounds at a shooting range and took 50 more home. Jennifer Crumbley described the gun on social media as an early Christmas gift.
School staff did not demand that the teen go home during the meeting but were surprised when the Crumbleys did not volunteer it. Instead, they left with a list of mental health providers and said they were returning to work.
Later that day, on Nov. 30, 2021, their son pulled a handgun from his backpack and began shooting, killing Shilling, Baldwin, Tate Myre and Hana St. Juliana, and wounding seven other people. No one had checked the bag.
I didn’t have to delve to deep to see that the parents were partly responsible for the tragedy. Not sure why the punishment was even questioned really. Our/your justice system punishes by incarceration until they come up with a different method ……. Stasis perhapsStuff like this that the mom said he just needs to hide it better or something like that
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From the AP article:https://apnews.com/article/james-crumbley-jennifer-crumbley-oxford-school-shooting-e5888f615c76c3b26153c34dc36d5436
Yes some people. Some more than others. Especially in former colonies in north and south america. How’s that working out?incarceration is how some people are punished.
I have zero trust in all parents responsibly supervising their kids to a point that prevents the inevitable extremes. So I consider it the responsibility of the government - and thus the people putting them there - and thus the authorities, to prevent people from buying guns (other than for hunting, sports, and job related purposes, and only after rigorous checks). Anything else is just inevitable symptoms, asking for problems. Responsible parents and responsible gunownership for everyone... in what universe?It's the responsibility of parents to supervise their kid. They bought him guns despite several warnings from the school and others who warned of threatening behavior right up to the day of the shootings.
+They provided a 15 year old with a firearm and failed to ensure it was secured safely
They bought him guns despite several warnings from the school and others who warned of threatening behavior right up to the day of the shootings.
Lady justice is supposed to be blind and treat everyone equal under the law ánd remain consistent. Their past actions not their character or possible future actions should be on trial.I get what you're saying about the assholes getting longer sentences, but showing remorse and/or accepting responsibility points towards rehabilitation, does it not?
US gun laws are insane in the way they enable this kind of carnage. I've given up on the idea that gun availability is going to be restricted any time soon. It's possible that my punitive attitude stems from frustration with the lax attitudes gun owners demonstrate to these weapons. I don't/won't own a gun because I have no sporting reason to own one and guns homes less safe simply by being there. A preponderance of gun owners and their lobby are the ones most active in protecting their right to own any god damn killing machine they can afford,. So, god damn it. They own this problem, not me. Lock the fucker up when we can prove negligence, which isn't easy.Yes some people. Some more than others. Especially in former colonies in north and south america. How’s that working out?
List of countries by incarceration rate - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
From the article I posted:
"They are the first parents to be held criminally responsible for a mass school shooting committed by their child"
Seems fair, since it's a first, to question it. Especially with 10-15 years sentences. Not like this is a normal sentence.
@Fogdog: thanks for the summary, I only skimmed through the article I posted, which was about determining the sentences. I do not question the process of the parent's having been found guilty of a criminal offense. I'm talking about the proportionality and the arguments presented for the 10-15 years.
I have zero trust in all parents responsibly supervising their kids to a point that prevents the inevitable extremes. So I consider it the responsibility of the government - and thus the people putting them there - and thus the authorities, to prevent people from buying guns (other than for hunting, sports, and job related purposes, and only after rigorous checks). Anything else is just inevitable symptoms, asking for problems. Responsible parents and responsible gunownership for everyone... in what universe?
Whenever I fail to make a point I tend to come up with analogies, without going reductio ad absurdum in a fallacious way. It’s hard in this case, cause the reality is the absurdum. “That's like allowing everyone to buy guns and then locking up parents of kids who shoot other kids, for 15 years” should be at most a reductio ad absurdum, an extreme analogy of something that of course doesn’t happen, makes no sense, would be absurd. But then, it happens. Almost half the civilian owned guns are in the US. If there was ever a case of people being a victim of their environment... the parents, as well as the kid and the victims and their parents... Anyone accepting the modern interpretation and application of the 2A, especially those in power, is complicit. More retribution isn’t going to help anyone.
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The problem is them being able to buy guns to give to their kids period. (without the audio of your posts it sounds like the emphasis is not on 'they bought him/ provided 15 y/o guns but on the remaining part of your sentence).
Lady justice is supposed to be blind and treat everyone equal under the law ánd remain consistent. Their past actions not their character or possible future actions should be on trial.
Rehabilitation is one of the goals of punishment that doesn’t seem to apply to this case at all. And 15 years incarceration for the sake of incapacitation, to protect the society, not so much either. That would at least be disproportionate. (People like them are generally speaking a threat to society, sure.) 15 years as denunciation/deterence… I think that‘s the worst argument. The circumstances for all those other messed up parents and kids that led to this tragic situation isn’t going to change by such a harsh sentence. The idea that it can have that effect seems to stem from an emphasis on people having full autonomy no matter the circumstances.
Which leaves the law of Moses: retribution. To satisfy feelings, emotions, a desire for vengeance. Justice? Well, a form of it. All i’m saying extra retribution under the guise of denunciation doesn’t seem right, nor helpful.
Buying a 15 yo kid w/issues a concealed firearm??? INCOMPETENCE ON STEROIDS,how about taking Junior to the local Rod/Gun Club for target shooting w/a rifle/shotgun and teaching him ALL about gun/safety in the process along w/responsibility as a first step to building esteem in the kid and bonding w/your son.To just throw him his own pistol at 15 yrs old is retarded,WTF were these people thinking??IMO the judge had to hold them responsible for dereliction of duty as parents w/death resulting.I mean a 15 yo w/some issues,probably playing violent video games for yrs.,and they're OK w/giving the kid a pistol??DUHThere is some talk in that article about this case being part of an effort to expand the circle of people held accountable for mass shootings. If only we could find a way to include lawmakers who act as if thoughts and prayers are the most they can do. But that's another matter. The judge said holding parents who knew of the danger, had been warned ahead of the act and failed to take proactive preventive action should be held accountable "as a deterrent" for others. I don't know if there is data to support the idea of deterrence but the judge seems to think there is.