What led strips to consider in 2024?

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nxsov180db

Well-Known Member
Yeah the 301’s outperform the 561 diode per diode, but the cost of the 561 is less when you can get a 144 diode strip for $13
 
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1212ham

Well-Known Member
taproot

taproot

Well-Known Member
What's the thought on heat sinks vs no heat sinks? Can you push modern strips at half their rated output without them? I was hoping more of you guys did it so a hypothesis could be formed..seems like just a few do thus far. I though the manufactures gave a value of when and when not hs were needed.

I was also looking at the kingbright on alieexpress ....I've heard they make good strips. It almost as cheap to just buy one if you can get cheap shipping. I do like diy project though..I think most tokers like to fidget around.

Thanks for all the input thus far!
 
Rocket Soul

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
taproot said:
Yes sir, I thought about using a sheet. Fact is ..I don't mind building it like I did the other one. It's just I keep hearing from a few people that heat sinks are not required if you run then soft..thus I'm trying to validate it and quantify what soft is from a mathematical / electrical standpoint.

I'm still interested from the led experts what are good strips here in 2024. And, what color spectrum people are using now etc. I've not been active for a few years so I'm just checking in on things. Are folks like the bridgelux gen3 or samsungs or what?
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Mounting strips to sheet metal is quite attractive for cheaper strips; it lowers sinking costs quite a bit. One thing to keep in mind though: sheet sinking will radiate heat from the top and the bottom equally while traditional sinking (and U-channel) radiates more on the top. This can actually be attractive if your space tends to run cold since it throws some heat down on your cannopy. But if you tend to run hot then better to try more traditional heatsinks.

I agree on the lm561C mentioned above, they are good value but i would spec my light with 50-100% more diodes if i went for these (or any other cheapo alternative like 281b) rather than 301s.

The main point im making is that though efficiency is great the plants dont see the efficiency, only the the amount and quality of light that hits the plant. So as far as the plant goes you could get the same effects of high efficiency diodes by
Frankindank said:
I don't know what I'm talking about... yet your experience represent all of the market? Never said you were wrong about your gardens. Said your experience was not a result of the diode model, but the board layout. Which, you confirmed...more diodes.

If the same diode count...281B+ and 301B/H will outperform the 561C. Not only in output/efficacy and , but also in all other not so tangible qualities such as thermal cycling, impact resistance, sulfur resistance. Now add in that 561C's are damn near the price of a 301B and 2X the price of a 2835 of higher performance(VK or VL), it just doesn't make sense today to advocate for a 561C or any 5630 led. Add the fact that they don't make over the count strips with 5630's anymore(f series discontinued for while now) and it just makes no sense.

Again, not taken away from your gardens or what you use. Just the pure fact that the thread is called "What strips to consider in 2024" we should be giving the most up to date advice, not just good times down memory lane.


Tough to go wrong with a 301B or H. Even the bottom bin is better than most other out there.
281B+ can be good. 2835's are where you need to pay attention the most to binning. Some overseas places will pull the old switcheroo with a lower bin and tough to tell without sphere testing. Would stick to VK and VL ranks for 281B+ ideally if comparing to 301's and top diodes. And also ideally the 281B+ Pro, not just the standard B+.
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"If the same diode count...281B+ and 301B/H will outperform the 561C" are you basing this on some efficiency tests or on datasheets? Samsung datasheets seems to be over performing their actual output somewhat. Ive seen 301s vrs 281s tested with the same equipment and they were not as far away as i would have imagined. But ive never seen the 281+ against the 561c on the same equipment.

"And also ideally the 281B+ Pro, not just the standard B+." These two diodes are extremely similar in performance as far as i know, at least according to samsung led calculator. The reason for the hype of the pro and dinging of 281+ is due to the datasheet: one says 165 l/w the other 200ish l/w. Problem is one uses nominal current 65mA, the other 150mA, more than double and almost 2.5x current. Like for like, at same current and both top bin they are almost the same.




561c : dont know why you are so down on them. Its a 210l/w diode, with good thermal handling. Yes they are a bit older but saying bottom bin 301s will beat top bin 561c is a bit hyperbole; its just not true, at least basing yourself on datasheets. What i agree completely with is that its all really about what bins are actually a available thru whoever is fabricating the boards/strips.

taproot said:
What's the thought on heat sinks vs no heat sinks? Can you push modern strips at half their rated output without them? I was hoping more of you guys did it so a hypothesis could be formed..seems like just a few do thus far. I though the manufactures gave a value of when and when not hs were needed.
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If you try to design your light with no heatsinks your likely to run your diodes much softer which is good. But the same light with sinks would perform better.

How much wattage can i run without a heatsink? There isnt really an easy answer. You cant really go by rated power; the rated power is just something made up for the datasheet. Just as above re 281+ vrs 281+ pro: what they put down as "nominal power" is up to the manufacturer, there no actual "rules" for it. So using half rated power makes no sense as rated power could be anything. As a sorta general rule of thumb: 15w/ 2 feet strip for fr4/plastic strips and 20-25w for alu pcb 2 feet. But you have to pay attention to how many diodes are on the strip and such. If the strip has monos then you need to figure out roughly how much current per mono and take things from there. The surest way to find out is to buy your strips, set them up for tests and measure temperature, if they get too hot for your liking then sink them.
 
taproot

taproot

Well-Known Member
Rocket Soul said:
The surest way to find out is to buy your strips, set them up for tests and measure temperature, if they get too hot for your liking then sink them.
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Right, I hear you and thanks so much for the feedback as it's greatly appreciated. But, when you say too hot for my liking I have no idea how much heat is too much. What's a good temp to aim for strip wise? 90-100F? What's considered too hot..110F+? Do we have a idea of this info? I'm basing this question on aluminum backed strips like the ones I posted above at alieexpress. Those are samsung diodes per their listing and they are aluminum backed? Here's the specs listed.

What's the ambient air temp of the grow room suppose to be for leds..I think I had it about 85F last time but I've not grown in years. I'd suppose that adds up to.

Think I'll start looking for a sale on some flat bar as well or some u channel.

Another question, how hard is it to get that thermal tape off without destroying the led?

Again, thank you.


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F

Frankindank

Member
nxsov180db said:
Yeah the 301’s outperform the 561 diode per diode, but the cost of the 561 is less when you can get a 144 diode strip for $15.
Click to expand...
My case and point...
K series... 256 281 Pros ...~$11....hell you buy enough of them you could get them for $9.
5630's are dead. 2835 are the present and future. Even 3030's are on their way out essentially.
Rocket Soul said:
Mounting strips to sheet metal is quite attractive for cheaper strips; it lowers sinking costs quite a bit. One thing to keep in mind though: sheet sinking will radiate heat from the top and the bottom equally while traditional sinking (and U-channel) radiates more on the top. This can actually be attractive if your space tends to run cold since it throws some heat down on your cannopy. But if you tend to run hot then better to try more traditional heatsinks.

I agree on the lm561C mentioned above, they are good value but i would spec my light with 50-100% more diodes if i went for these (or any other cheapo alternative like 281b) rather than 301s.

The main point im making is that though efficiency is great the plants dont see the efficiency, only the the amount and quality of light that hits the plant. So as far as the plant goes you could get the same effects of high efficiency diodes by

"If the same diode count...281B+ and 301B/H will outperform the 561C" are you basing this on some efficiency tests or on datasheets? Samsung datasheets seems to be over performing their actual output somewhat. Ive seen 301s vrs 281s tested with the same equipment and they were not as far away as i would have imagined. But ive never seen the 281+ against the 561c on the same equipment.

"And also ideally the 281B+ Pro, not just the standard B+." These two diodes are extremely similar in performance as far as i know, at least according to samsung led calculator. The reason for the hype of the pro and dinging of 281+ is due to the datasheet: one says 165 l/w the other 200ish l/w. Problem is one uses nominal current 65mA, the other 150mA, more than double and almost 2.5x current. Like for like, at same current and both top bin they are almost the same.




561c : dont know why you are so down on them. Its a 210l/w diode, with good thermal handling. Yes they are a bit older but saying bottom bin 301s will beat top bin 561c is a bit hyperbole; its just not true, at least basing yourself on datasheets. What i agree completely with is that its all really about what bins are actually a available thru whoever is fabricating the boards/strips.


If you try to design your light with no heatsinks your likely to run your diodes much softer which is good. But the same light with sinks would perform better.

How much wattage can i run without a heatsink? There isnt really an easy answer. You cant really go by rated power; the rated power is just something made up for the datasheet. Just as above re 281+ vrs 281+ pro: what they put down as "nominal power" is up to the manufacturer, there no actual "rules" for it. So using half rated power makes no sense as rated power could be anything. As a sorta general rule of thumb: 15w/ 2 feet strip for fr4/plastic strips and 20-25w for alu pcb 2 feet. But you have to pay attention to how many diodes are on the strip and such. If the strip has monos then you need to figure out roughly how much current per mono and take things from there. The surest way to find out is to buy your strips, set them up for tests and measure temperature, if they get too hot for your liking then sink them.
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Pros have 2X the thermal cycling ability than the regular. Also pros use the best anti-sulfuization...standard do not. Ask Samsung themselves if they would ever support a regular 281 in a horti application. Then ask them the same about the Pros...they will support/recommend a pro, not a regular.

As to 281(pros and regular) to 301...you need to be specific. There are 3 bins of 301 and ~7 of 281's(ranks for 281's).
Yes the VL is pretty close to a 301...hence why I said stick to VK and VL rank 281's. Those have plenty good enough efficacy, and at ~1/2 a 301 cost even with tariffs. New VM is out too if we want to dive into whats next. But for the bulk of people they will have access to VK and VL. And VL is essentially a 301b(mid bin flux and VF) in performance.
And to add to it, here is the kicker.... THE PROS ARE THE EXACT SAME PRICE. There is NO EXCUSE to use a non pro 281 in a horti application.
 
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taproot

taproot

Well-Known Member
Th
Frankindank said:
My case and point...
K series... 256 281 Pros ...~$11....hell you buy enough of them you could get them for $9.
5630's are dead. 2835 are the present and future. Even 3030's are on their way out essentially.

Pros have 2X the thermal cycling ability than the regular. Also pros use the best anti-sulfuization...standard do not. Ask Samsung themselves if they would ever support a regular 281 in a horti application. Then ask them the same about the Pros...they will support/recommend a pro, not a regular.

As to 281(pros and regular) to 301...you need to be specific. There are 3 bins of 301 and ~7 of 281's(ranks for 281's).
Yes the VL is pretty close to a 301...hence why I said stick to VK and VL rank 281's. Those have plenty good enough efficacy, and at ~1/2 a 301 cost even with tariffs. New VM is out too if we want to dive into whats next. But for the bulk of people they will have access to VK and VL. And VL is essentially a 301b(mid bin flux and VF) in performance.
And to add to it, here is the kicker.... THE PROS ARE THE EXACT SAME PRICE. There is NO EXCUSE to use a non pro 281 in a horti application.
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Think I'm going to try some 301H and 281B+ since they are fairly cheap on alie. Hopefully those are decent diodes, the strips have 660 and UV as well.
 
Rocket Soul

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
Frankindank said:
My case and point...
K series... 256 281 Pros ...~$11....hell you buy enough of them you could get them for $9.
5630's are dead. 2835 are the present and future. Even 3030's are on their way out essentially.

Pros have 2X the thermal cycling ability than the regular. Also pros use the best anti-sulfuization...standard do not. Ask Samsung themselves if they would ever support a regular 281 in a horti application. Then ask them the same about the Pros...they will support/recommend a pro, not a regular.

As to 281(pros and regular) to 301...you need to be specific. There are 3 bins of 301 and ~7 of 281's(ranks for 281's).
Yes the VL is pretty close to a 301...hence why I said stick to VK and VL rank 281's. Those have plenty good enough efficacy, and at ~1/2 a 301 cost even with tariffs. New VM is out too if we want to dive into whats next. But for the bulk of people they will have access to VK and VL. And VL is essentially a 301b(mid bin flux and VF) in performance.
And to add to it, here is the kicker.... THE PROS ARE THE EXACT SAME PRICE. There is NO EXCUSE to use a non pro 281 in a horti application.
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Can you tell me more about the anti sulfurization of the pros? What does it consist in and what difference to standard 281+? Its not a gotcha, im genuinely interested as im looking into making some boards with 281s and appreciate any info them.

Re "the horses/samsungs mouth": Im not convinced on samsungs word since their diodes tend to underperform their datasheet. When i say they underperform: they are still accurate to the datasheet but suffers from some creative maths: the diodes test (at least according to my buddy) around 5% lower than spec. Thing is, since bins are +-5% the diodes are still technically within spec, in the legal sense. Basicly when using samsungs datasheet youre probably best of by using their min values for reference.

This thermal cycling thing, what is it and what does it mean to a diode in a horti context? Looking thru the datasheet of both; they have the same thermal resistance (25, 561c : 12, 301s: 7.5) and the same "temperature cycle" conditions. Though in temperature cycle they quote cycles from -45C to 125C : this is conditions that your standard growlight wont ever see, so its either irrelevant or something different to "thermal cycling", hence asking you for more info, always happy learn :)

As for 281 vrs 301- sorry i dont have bin info but youre very welcome to ask for that info, the source is led-tech.de . Checking again, they actually got 281+ pro aswell; its 0.07ppf/w more efficient than the standard. Notable but not worth writing home for.
 
taproot

taproot

Well-Known Member
Rocket Soul said:
Can you tell me more about the anti sulfurization of the pros? What does it consist in and what difference to standard 281+? Its not a gotcha, im genuinely interested as im looking into making some boards with 281s and appreciate any info them.

Re "the horses/samsungs mouth": Im not convinced on samsungs word since their diodes tend to underperform their datasheet. When i say they underperform: they are still accurate to the datasheet but suffers from some creative maths: the diodes test (at least according to my buddy) around 5% lower than spec. Thing is, since bins are +-5% the diodes are still technically within spec, in the legal sense. Basicly when using samsungs datasheet youre probably best of by using their min values for reference.

This thermal cycling thing, what is it and what does it mean to a diode in a horti context? Looking thru the datasheet of both; they have the same thermal resistance (25, 561c : 12, 301s: 7.5) and the same "temperature cycle" conditions. Though in temperature cycle they quote cycles from -45C to 125C : this is conditions that your standard growlight wont ever see, so its either irrelevant or something different to "thermal cycling", hence asking you for more info, always happy learn :)

As for 281 vrs 301- sorry i dont have bin info but youre very welcome to ask for that info, the source is led-tech.de . Checking again, they actually got 281+ pro aswell; its 0.07ppf/w more efficient than the standard. Notable but not worth writing home for.
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Isn't the bridgelux hort line called thrive..what's your opinion on those; and additionally on the new EB3 series? Other than efficiency has anybody looked at who has the best spectrum for plants from the big boys?
 
Drop That Sound

Drop That Sound

Well-Known Member
For a few bucks more, why not go with full square tubing instead of flatbar or c channel? Then use some cheap alumaweld brazing rods and a torch to cap the ends off so they're water tight. Then tap and drill holes on each of the ends of each bar to screw in some barbed fittings, and connect them all in a loop. It's 2024, and aluminum water cooling components are cheap af!

Of course you should cool off your components the best you can, IMO. I would rather WC the strips and drive the piss out of them at 100%.. if not overdrive them even more than that, and make 2 powerful lights that share one WC'ing reservoir\pump & loop, instead of one light with twice the strips.. and only be running them at 50%.. and still probably end up needing overpriced heatsinks anyway so they don't degrade too quickly. Go hard, not soft!
:blsmoke:
 
taproot

taproot

Well-Known Member
Drop That Sound said:
For a few bucks more, why not go with full square tubing instead of flatbar or c channel? Then use some cheap alumaweld brazing rods and a torch to cap the ends off so they're water tight. Then tap and drill holes on each of the ends of each bar to screw in some barbed fittings, and connect them all in a loop. It's 2024, and aluminum water cooling components are cheap af!

Of course you should cool off your components the best you can, IMO. I would rather WC the strips and drive the piss out of them at 100%.. if not overdrive them even more than that, and make 2 powerful lights that share one WC'ing reservoir\pump & loop, instead of one light with twice the strips.. and only be running them at 50%.. and still probably end up needing overpriced heatsinks anyway so they don't degrade too quickly. Go hard, not soft!
:blsmoke:
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Bro, love the enthusiasm...but I grow in hempy buckets for a reason. I want drop dead simple! I don't need water cooled lights, I'll leave that to you guys that like to put disco lights in your computers. :)
 
taproot

taproot

Well-Known Member
Anybody know of 660 / 750nm only strips? I'd like to add a little boost to the overall lights.

This seems a little expensive right?

 
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nxsov180db

Well-Known Member
Drop That Sound said:
For a few bucks more, why not go with full square tubing instead of flatbar or c channel? Then use some cheap alumaweld brazing rods and a torch to cap the ends off so they're water tight. Then tap and drill holes on each of the ends of each bar to screw in some barbed fittings, and connect them all in a loop. It's 2024, and aluminum water cooling components are cheap af!

Of course you should cool off your components the best you can, IMO. I would rather WC the strips and drive the piss out of them at 100%.. if not overdrive them even more than that, and make 2 powerful lights that share one WC'ing reservoir\pump & loop, instead of one light with twice the strips.. and only be running them at 50%.. and still probably end up needing overpriced heatsinks anyway so they don't degrade too quickly. Go hard, not soft!
:blsmoke:
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It cheaper just to run more strips and you don't need any sinks period when running them soft. And with more strips you have a more equal light distribution. If strips were 100$ each it might be more economical..
 
N

nxsov180db

Well-Known Member
Rocket Soul said:
I agree on the lm561C mentioned above, they are good value but i would spec my light with 50-100% more diodes if i went for these (or any other cheapo alternative like 281b) rather than 301s.
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That's the point I was trying to make lol. You can get the F series 144 diode strips for around 13$, 80 diode 301's are about 14$, so around half the diode count and less efficient "overall".
 
N

nxsov180db

Well-Known Member
Frankindank said:
My case and point...
K series... 256 281 Pros ...~$11....hell you buy enough of them you could get them for $9.
5630's are dead. 2835 are the present and future. Even 3030's are on their way out essentially.
Click to expand...
K series 3000k (256 diodes) 148lm/watt
F series 3000k (144 diodes) 168lm/watt
 
taproot

taproot

Well-Known Member
What's the general consensus on how far apart to space each strip? For example, the tent I'm looking at is a 2x5. I was planning on running 16 strips, the ones I posted above, at half their capacity which would be 30W per strip for 480W. How far apart would you guys space them out? 12 inches x 5ft give me 60 overall inches. Divide 60 by the number of strips 16 give me 3.75. I could do 3 inches apart and have a little room.
 
N

nxsov180db

Well-Known Member
taproot said:
What's the general consensus on how far apart to space each strip? For example, the tent I'm looking at is a 2x5. I was planning on running 16 strips, the ones I posted above, at half their capacity which would be 30W per strip for 480W. How far apart would you guys space them out? 12 inches x 5ft give me 60 overall inches. Divide 60 by the number of strips 16 give me 3.75. I could do 3 inches apart and have a little room.
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Just space them equally apart to fill the space. Make the overall size of the light maybe 58” so it fits easily inside the 60” tent.
 
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