Another Republican President, Another Recession.

sunni

Administrator
Staff member
Ok is that bad? Those higher paying jobs are not being lost, and I know around me I have seen a shit load of 'help wanted' signs at local shops. Hell the Kroger is now offering $16 an hour. Pre-pandemic I am pretty sure they were about $10.

I'll double check real quick to just make sure your not just tossing that out there because it for sure doesn't say that in the AP article I posted and I havnt read the jobs report to know if it isn't just a make me chase my tail kind of thing.

Our highway system and infrastructure for the burbs to even exist in the first place would strongly disagree with this.
16 an hour is absolutely not enough to live on

just because someone is looking for work doesnt mean that its worth it depending where you live

everyone is hiring because they dont fucking pay enough to afford anything except when you have to have 4 fucking roommates

Adding jobs looks good on paper but the reality is different.

You have to realize your reality isnt everyone's reality this where you have to start understanding that our new work force generation cannot survive 40+ hours a week at kroger for 16 fucking dollars an hour

some of us are very privileged (im assuming you are one of them) who has been in the workforce gotten pay raises youre at a place of employment where you can survive, when we were younger we could survive on the shitty 10 dollars an hour with a shitty apartment , but now a days our new workforce generation cant a studio apartment where i live is almost 2000+ per month, a ROOM for rent is 1800 here.
dont forget the cost to drive to work, buy food, insurance, health insurance, internet, added costs of all ammenties for apartments

Im assuming you have no idea what its like to rent now a days but its pretty bad they tack on extras for everything upon your base rent, so base rent is maybe 2000 but than you have an additional 200-300 per month in amenities, smart locks, packages and community fees you literally cannot get out of

Our new work force is mostly well educated kids applying for hundreds of jobs and get turned down , all you need to do is expand your mind and reality and realize people are actually struggling despite what it shows on paper, go on to instagram there are people on there showing the break down costs of many things with cited sources, kids who have applied ot hundreds of jobs with no call backs etc

People who get denied at mcdonalds, kroger etc because their educational background is too high so the companies dont wanna risk employing them because they will leave for better pay

you seem to continually think everything is great and no ones struggling

You can be a dem, and realize its fucking shit out here for some people , you seem to have lost that somewhere , isnt that what being liberal is about?
understanding others? Being at your core a better person and realizing its not just what is on paper and being there for our fellow humans who share space with us on this planet earth?
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
I like the clip. I started to lol at their commentary (the guy talking anyways, the girl was actually pretty solid) when they start tossing out the word 'capitalist' like it is anything different than any of us.

What I think he meant was rich dickhead who has no idea that all those hours he works doesn't even come close to the time that all those people are putting in to make everything happen.


https://www.dol.gov/agencies/osec
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Frequently named to top-lawyer lists such as the Daily Journal's "Top 75 Women Litigators" in California and California Lawyer's "Super Lawyers," she was the first labor commissioner to be included among the Daily Journal's "Top 75 Labor and Employment Lawyers." She has also been named one of the 50 most noteworthy women alumni of Harvard Law School and one of the 100 most influential people in Los Angeles in Los Angeles Magazine.

Su has taught at UCLA Law School and Northeastern Law School. She is a graduate of Stanford University and Harvard Law School and began her career with a Skadden Fellowship. Su speaks Mandarin and Spanish.

 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
16 an hour is absolutely not enough to live on
I don't disagree. I take it more a solid part time job, or for families as a secondary income flow.

The national average is $35 an hour. But also it is so region specific to know what the cost of living is in those areas it is hard to really say how much it would take to actually live in those areas hourly.

just because someone is looking for work doesnt mean that its worth it depending where you live
That is a big thing here in Metro Detroit too. Everything is so reliant on driving here it sucks.

everyone is hiring because they dont fucking pay enough to afford anything except when you have to have 4 fucking roommates
It has been a while since I looked, so figured I would look at the cost of 1 bedrooms around. It looks like it is a couple hundred higher here than from when I rented a couple decades ago.



So in this one example, it would be about 50 hours working per month at the local Kroger to pay for it.

Adding jobs looks good on paper but the reality is different.
How would it be bad?

Adding jobs looks good on paper but the reality is different.

You have to realize your reality isnt everyone's reality this where you have to start understanding that our new work force generation cannot survive 40+ hours a week at kroger for 16 fucking dollars an hour
I'm guessing you are saying this like the jobs report was all just shit jobs? I am not sure if you saw the part that 100k of those jobs were in solid industries and the wage averages increased to over $35 an hour.

And I disagree. If it takes 50 hours to get enough money for rent, you have 110 hours worth of labor a month here to spend on other stuff.

Shit talking people getting work because every job is not reliable for a stable retirement plan doesn't mean they don't benefit the people who earn the wages they bring.

some of us are very privileged (im assuming you are one of them) who has been in the workforce gotten pay raises youre at a place of employment where you can survive, when we were younger we could survive on the shitty 10 dollars an hour with a shitty apartment , but now a days our new workforce generation cant a studio apartment where i live is almost 2000+ per month, a ROOM for rent is 1800 here.
dont forget the cost to drive to work, buy food, insurance, health insurance, internet, added costs of all ammenties for apartments

Im assuming you have no idea what its like to rent now a days but its pretty bad they tack on extras for everything upon your base rent, so base rent is maybe 2000 but than you have an additional 200-300 per month in amenities, smart locks, packages and community fees you literally cannot get out of
I am sure there are all kinds of places that are expensive sa shit. I would not be looking to settle into one of those spots thinking I would be able to wing it at entry level jobs that's for sure.

Our new work force is mostly well educated kids applying for hundreds of jobs and get turned down , all you need to do is expand your mind and reality and realize people are actually struggling despite what it shows on paper, go on to instagram there are people on there showing the break down costs of many things with cited sources, kids who have applied ot hundreds of jobs with no call backs etc

Being well educated doesn't mean you don't fall for scams.

As for struggling. I get it, I don't need social media to know people struggle out there to get my mind bent into whatever it is that my feed ends up pushing me into believing is far more prevalent than it is.

People who get denied at mcdonalds, kroger etc because their educational background is too high so the companies dont wanna risk employing them because they will leave for better pay
I can see that happening. I am sure that unless that person was just looking for a long term secondary household income, they likely would be looking for better jobs.


you seem to continually think everything is great and no ones struggling


I am pretty sure I can find many posts I have made during any period of time we come up that point to the fact that yes, I do understand people suffer all the time and that no everything is not great.

You can be a dem, and realize its fucking shit out here for some people , you seem to have lost that somewhere , isnt that what being liberal is about? understanding others?

Being at your core a better person and realizing its not just what is on paper and being there for our fellow humans who share space with us on this planet earth?
I actually have no idea what being a 'liberal' is about. I think it is one of those ink blot test words that can mean whatever it is that people trick themselves into believing it means.

And as for you thinking so little of me. I would point to the word 'seem'. Because I do not know where you would have gotten that from.

Do I think that economically we are far better than we were under Democratic control of our national government, yes, emphatically yes. The data proves this over the last several decades.

Does this mean that I think whatever batshit thing it is you think I do. No, it really doesn't.

As for what I think the Democratic Party is about. As of right now I am voting for them because it is about lessoning the fascistic tendencies of our nation through having full representation of our population (more voices, more input means more potential for understanding of how the impacts are felt in all the communities) and making the best decisions possible with the actual information that is on the table. Outside of that, I would love for a Republican Party that wasn't trying to achieve the opposite.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
One thing @6 minutes Trump is saying something in a way that is a perfect soundbite to set up a troll. Cohen is calling what Trump said a lie because it is set up to make it sound like it is about not being anyone from FEMA helping out. There was something about staff shortages at FEMA and hundreds of other emergencies that they are currently dealing with that is spreading them pretty thin. So Trump can use that as a see they are fake news when they fact check him because of the way he said it.

It is one of the things that actually sounded reasonable coming out of the Republicans, I am not recalling all the details on it atm (if they were even given in what I saw them on), but something about the Florida hotel collapse and FEMA dealing with mission creep.

 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member



https://apnews.com/article/inflation-prices-interest-rates-economy-federal-reserve-cd6d9712bfd484d6e1bc4ccb958dcf23
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WASHINGTON (AP) — Inflation in the United States dropped last month to its lowest point since it first began surging more than three years ago, adding to a spate of encouraging economic news in the closing weeks of the presidential race.

Consumer prices rose just 2.4% in September from a year earlier, down from 2.5% in August, and the smallest annual rise since February 2021. Measured from month to month, prices increased 0.2% from August to September, the Labor Department reported Thursday, the same as in the previous month.

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But excluding volatile food and energy costs, “core” prices, a gauge of underlying inflation, remained elevated in September, driven up by rising costs for medical care, clothing, auto insurance and airline fares. Core prices in September were up 3.3% from a year earlier and 0.3% from August. Economists closely watch core prices, which typically provide a better hint of future inflation.

Alan Detmeister, an economist at UBS Investment Bank, suggested that some items that contributed to higher core inflation last month, notably used cars, may rise again in the coming months, keeping prices a bit elevated. But other items that rose in price in September, like clothing and air fares, are more volatile and should cool soon.

“Things are still gradually coming down, but there is going to be volatility month to month,” said Detmeister, a former Federal Reserve economist.

Taken as a whole, the September figures show that inflation is steadily easing back to the Fed’s 2% target, even if in an uneven pattern. That decline suggests that the Fed will likely keep cutting its benchmark interest rate this year, with two quarter-point reductions in November and December expected by most economists.

On a positive note, apartment rental prices grew more slowly last month, a sign that housing inflation is finally cooling, a long-awaited development that would provide relief to many consumers.

Omair Sharif, founder of Inflation Insights, said that measures of new rents show a steady slowdown, suggesting that the government’s gauges of rent should continue to ease over time.

“I think we’re on the right path here,” Sharif said. “We should see rent cool off quite a bit.”

Overall inflation last month was held down by a big drop in gas prices, which fell 4.1% from August to September. Grocery prices jumped 0.4% last month, after roughly a year of mild increases, though they’re just 1.3% higher than a year earlier.

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Still, food prices have risen nearly 25% from pre-pandemic levels, which has hammered many Americans’ budgets and taken on a high profile in the presidential campaign. Trump has often cited the cost of bacon, which soared 30% to a peak of $7.60 a pound in October 2022, as an example of big increases in the cost of living. Bacon prices have since fallen to $6.95 but are still elevated.

Restaurant food prices increased 0.3% last month and are up 3.9% in the past year. And clothing prices rose 1.1% from August to September and are up 1.8% from a year ago.

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Bryan Tublin, co-founder of Kitava, a casual farm-to-table restaurant in San Francisco, said he has struggled mightily with rising prices for produce, meats and oils for the past three years. Though some of those prices have started to slow, he said, many farmers are still passing on to him their higher costs for things like shipping and labor.

In response, Tublin said, he has changed suppliers in search of cheaper products, substituting a local wild-rice blend for cauliflower rice when cauliflower prices shot higher.

Kitava also started charging extra for beef and other proteins at its two locations.

“I am starting to see signs that our prices are leveling out and the increases are lessening,” Tublin said. “There’s a little optimism... but it’s still very early days.”

The improving inflation picture follows a mostly healthy jobs report released last week, which showed that hiring accelerated in September and that the unemployment rate dropped from 4.2% to 4.1%. The government has also reported that the economy expanded at a solid 3% annual rate in the April-June quarter. Growth likely continued at roughly that pace in the just-completed July-September quarter.

Cooling inflation, solid hiring and healthy growth could erode former President Donald Trump’s advantage on the economy in the presidential campaign as measured by public opinion polls. In some surveys, Vice President Kamala Harris has pulled even with Trump on the issue of who would best handle the economy, after Trump had decisively led President Joe Biden on the issue.

At the same time, most voters still give the economy relatively poor marks, mostly because of the cumulative rise in prices over the past three years.

For the Fed, last week’s much-stronger-than-expected jobs report fueled some concern that the economy might not be cooling enough to slow inflation sufficiently. The central bank reduced its key rate by an outsized half-point last month, its first rate cut of any size in four years. The Fed’s policymakers also signaled that they envisioned two additional quarter-point rate cuts in November and December.

In remarks this week, a slew of Fed officials have said they’re still willing to keep cutting their key rate but at a deliberate pace, a signal that any further half-point cuts are unlikely.

The Fed “should not rush to reduce” its benchmark rate “but rather should proceed gradually,” Lorie Logan president of the Federal Reserve’s Dallas branch, said in a speech Wednesday.

Inflation in the United States and many countries in Europe and Latin America surged in the economic recovery from the pandemic, as COVID closed factories and clogged supply chains. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine worsened energy and food shortages, pushing inflation higher. It peaked at 9.1% in the U.S. in June 2022.

Economists at Goldman Sachs projected earlier this week that core inflation will drop to 3% by December 2024. And few analysts expect inflation to surge again unless conflicts in the Middle East worsen dramatically.

Though higher prices have soured many Americans on the economy, wages and incomes are now rising faster than costs and should make it easier for households to adapt. Last month, the Census Bureau reported that inflation-adjusted median household incomes — the level at which half of households are above and half below — rose 4% in 2023, enough to return incomes back to their pre-pandemic peak.

And on Thursday, the Social Security Administration announced that nearly 73 million recipients of Social Security and other benefits will receive a 2.5% cost of living adjustment in January. That is down from a 3.2% increase in 2024 and an outsize 8.7% jump the previous year, reflecting an inflation surge that has since subsided.



(If anyone is interested in Trump's entire rant:


The dude is insane, saying how he came into office and saved the he Auto industry. If anything once Trump came into office his policies stagnated growth in auto manufacturing here in Michigan. And that was before his crap handling of the pandemic.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/SMU26000003133610001
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I love that Obama called it out as Trump having his economy.
 
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hanimmal

Well-Known Member
It is nice to finally see people talking about how Trump's idiocy helped drive up gas prices that we all had to deal with the impacts of that inflation across all industries.


I hadn't heard the withholding military stuff from MBS before, nor the Texas oil shit head part either. I figured it was a lot more direct benefit. Keep prices low without tanking American companies while Trump was running, and then being able to turn around and troll Democrats when he lost.




More proof Trump doesn't know what the hell he is talking about when it comes to the economy. Once he knows his being full of shit is getting utterly exposed he just goes full troll sound bite mode.


God, when asked about Google possibly being broken up Trump cluelessly using that to talk about how bad it is that tens of thousands of voters NOT being disenfranchised in Georgia. How can people be so snowballed by this guy without the sane-washing filter being placed on him while suppressing anything not Trump approved.

https://apnews.com/article/trump-inflation-tariffs-taxes-immigration-federal-reserve-a18de763fcc01557258c7f33cab375ed
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WASHINGTON (AP) — With characteristic bravado, Donald Trump has vowed that if voters return him to the White House, “inflation will vanish completely.”

It’s a message tailored for Americans who are still exasperated by the jump in consumer prices that began 3 1/2 years ago.

Yet most mainstream economists say Trump’s policy proposals wouldn’t vanquish inflation. They’d make it worse. They warn that his plans to impose huge tariffs on imported goods, deport millions of migrant workers and demand a voice in the Federal Reserve’s interest rate policies would likely send prices surging.

Sixteen Nobel Prize-winning economists signed a letter in June expressing fear that Trump’s proposals would “reignite’’ inflation, which has plummeted since peaking at 9.1% in 2022 and is nearly back to the Fed’s 2% target.

The Nobel economists noted that they aren’t alone in sounding the alarm.

“Nonpartisan researchers,” they said, “predict that if Donald Trump successfully enacts his agenda, it will increase inflation.”

Last month, the Peterson Institute for International Economics predicted that Trump’s policies — the deportations, import taxes and efforts to erode the Fed’s independence — would drive consumer prices sharply higher two years into his second term. Peterson’s analysis concluded that inflation, which would otherwise register 1.9% in 2026, would instead jump to between 6% and 9.3% if Trump’s economic proposals were adopted.

Many economists aren’t thrilled with Vice President Kamala Harris’ economic agenda, either. They dismiss, for example, her proposal to combat price gouging as an ineffective tool against high grocery prices. But they don’t regard her policies as particularly inflationary.

Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody’s Analytics, and two colleagues have estimated that Harris’ policies would leave the inflation outlook virtually unchanged, even if she enjoyed a Democratic majority in both chambers of Congress. An unfettered Trump, by contrast, would leave prices higher by 1.1 percentage points in 2025 and 0.8 percentage points in 2026, they concluded.

Consumers end up paying for tariffs
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“There’s no question that tariffs are inflationary,’’ said Kent Smetters of the University of Pennsylvania’s Penn Wharton Budget Model, which studies the costs of government policies. “Exactly how much – that’s where economists can debate it.”

The inflationary impact of tariffs can depend on how consumers react to higher import prices: Do they keep buying the costlier foreign stuff — whether a coffeemaker from China, a box of Swiss chocolates or car made in Mexico? Or do they shift to an American-made alternative product? Or stop buying such goods altogether?

Kimberly Clausing and Mary Lovely of the Peterson Institute have calculated that Trump’s proposed 60% tax on Chinese imports and his high-end 20% tariff on everything else would, in combination, impose an after-tax loss on a typical American household of $2,600 a year.

Trump has made some implausible claims for protectionist policies. Asked how he would lower grocery prices — a particular irritant to many Americans — Trump has said the nation should limit the importation of food because America’s farmers are “being decimated’’ by foreign competition.

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New immigrants also spend money, notably on housing, and so, at least in theory, can fuel upward pressure on prices and rents. But many economists say they doubt that that’s happening now. Paul Ashworth of Capital Economics notes that today’s immigrants are highly likely to work and less likely to spend than native-born Americans, in part because they typically send money back to relatives in their home countries. Many economists, in fact, say the overall effect of increased immigration has been to help tame inflation while avoiding a painful recession — in other words, to achieve an economic “soft landing.”

The Congressional Budget Office reported in January that net immigration — arrivals minus departures — reached 3.3 million in 2023, more than triple what it had expected. Employers needed the new arrivals. With the economy having roared out of the pandemic recession, companies were struggling to hire enough workers to keep up with customer orders, especially because so many native-born baby boomers were entering or nearing retirement.

Immigrants filled the gap. Over the past four years, the number of people in the United States who either have a job or are looking for one rose by nearly 8.5 million. Roughly 72% of them were foreign born.

Economists Wendy Edelberg and Tara Watson of the Brookings Institution’s Hamilton Project found that by raising the supply of workers, the influx of immigrants allowed the United States to generate jobs without overheating and accelerating inflation.

In the past, economists generally estimated that America’s employers could add no more than 100,000 jobs a month without overheating the economy and igniting inflation. But when Edelberg and Watson included the immigration surge in their calculations, they found that monthly job growth could reach 160,000 to 200,000 without exerting upward pressure on inflation.

Trump’s mass deportations, if carried out, would change everything. The Peterson Institute calculates that the U.S. inflation rate would be 3.5 percentage points higher in 2026 if a second Trump administration managed to deport all 8.3 million undocumented immigrant workers who are thought to be working in the United States.

A politicized Fed would make inflation-fighting harder
Trump alarmed many economists in August by saying he would seek to have “a say” in the Fed’s interest rate decisions.

The Fed is the government’s chief inflation-fighter. It attacks high inflation by raising interest rates to try to restrain borrowing and spending, slow the economy and cool the rate of price increases. In March 2022, the Fed initiated an aggressive series of rate hikes to combat the worst bout of inflation in four decades. From a peak of 9.1%, inflation has dropped back close to the Fed’s 2% target.

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I think it would be interesting to sit down with a bunch of undecided voters and play 10 minutes of a Harris interview and then 10 minutes or Trump (or vise versa) until the end of each interview and get their responses.

After listening to them this morning back and forth, I don't see how any rational person would rather have Trump with a shovel beside them than Harris. And by shovel I mean doing any type of work that needs to get done.


Damn, I hadn't thought of her work in mortality rates among minority groups. Can't think of anything better than not having their mom die on them early in their lives when it would come to success in a man's life.
 

GenericEnigma

Well-Known Member
It is nice to finally see people talking about how Trump's idiocy helped drive up gas prices that we all had to deal with the impacts of that inflation across all industries.


I hadn't heard the withholding military stuff from MBS before, nor the Texas oil shit head part either. I figured it was a lot more direct benefit. Keep prices low without tanking American companies while Trump was running, and then being able to turn around and troll Democrats when he lost.






More proof Trump doesn't know what the hell he is talking about when it comes to the economy. Once he knows his being full of shit is getting utterly exposed he just goes full troll sound bite mode.


God, when asked about Google possibly being broken up Trump cluelessly using that to talk about how bad it is that tens of thousands of voters NOT being disenfranchised in Georgia. How can people be so snowballed by this guy without the sane-washing filter being placed on him while suppressing anything not Trump approved.

https://apnews.com/article/trump-inflation-tariffs-taxes-immigration-federal-reserve-a18de763fcc01557258c7f33cab375ed
View attachment 5433800

I think it would be interesting to sit down with a bunch of undecided voters and play 10 minutes of a Harris interview and then 10 minutes or Trump (or vise versa) until the end of each interview and get their responses.

After listening to them this morning back and forth, I don't see how any rational person would rather have Trump with a shovel beside them than Harris. And by shovel I mean doing any type of work that needs to get done.


Damn, I hadn't thought of her work in mortality rates among minority groups. Can't think of anything better than not having their mom die on them early in their lives when it would come to success in a man's life.
Trump supporters don't care that he lies. Proving out his lies is a waste of time, unfortunately. Each Trump supporter "knows what he means" when he spews. It's irrelevant if they come to different conclusions from each other.

The only way to reach a Trump supporter involves an understanding of either cult dynamics or how a MAGA administration benefits them personally.

To underscore my point, watch the interview of Youngkin by Tapper. Saying Youngkin is channeling his best greased pig suggests they were in the same sty - when in actuality, Youngkin's head was up Trump's sweet, rose-smelling ass doing an impression of a fentanyl overdose.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Trump supporters don't care that he lies.


Luckily just because someone answers they will vote for the Orange idiot doesn't mean they are his supporters though, they could just not give a shit and are in a sea of red hats that just go with the flow without knowing the very real dangers Trump brings to us all.

Hopefully these people will wake up to how we can't let Trump hurt our economy if he gets the opportunity to hammer our workforce again. Trumps trade war with China that he lost and we had to fork over billions to our farmers so they didn't lose everything in it. How his temper tantrum border closings stopped production for businesses, etc.


Proving out his lies is a waste of time, unfortunately. Each Trump supporter "knows what he means" when he spews. It's irrelevant if they come to different conclusions from each other.

The only way to reach a Trump supporter involves an understanding of either cult dynamics or how a MAGA administration benefits them personally.
I don't disagree at all. The micro targeting and the virtual reality that can be created around people is pretty much bullet proof without some large change in how we are allowing the propaganda/advertising to be so mindbendingly intelligently aimed at us. That any shortened period of time that doesn't use up all the soundbites to the arguments they have memorized from seening them over and over again, the conversation ends because everyone gets exhausted. And as soon as the person trying to help bring in information is no longer there, the trolls creep back in and patch up all those cracks with their victim.

I think this is kind of where the foundations of deprogramming people is in this though too. Each trigger phrase has the ability to mean different specific problems in our society that are then able to be flow charted (moving goalposts) into a somewhat rational argument. Building a data base of all the problem areas that we are being targeted in. Shit that is data we should have. Then just map the topic Trump/foreign trolls is/are pushing at the time and know which of those areas the people they are targeting need to have someone they can trust talk with them about while they are being spammed the fear mongering propaganda.

There is the problem of figuring out the flip side to the trigger too and being able to discuss it somewhat non-pissed off-ee because the radicalization is programmed into that relationship for a reason. I ran into a video with a bunch of the newer talking heads that they were talking about the difficulty they are having with this too.


I think it is easy to fall into traps that by the time they get to it, so many social landmines get walked over that conversations end (irl, online I use my bullshit shrodingers cat theory to mentally not burn out by being trolled). I think that the trick is to know where they are going to land and try to basically defuse the landmines before they crop up and get down to talking about what it is that actually is worrying them that is likely a very real problem (even if not as amplified as the internet/news media-esque sphere makes it feel). Which is next to impossible if you are not the ones (foreign and domestic) doing the programming.

Luckily with actual family that are talking with you have (generally) shared experiences that can be leaned on as points of agreements. Friends you grew up with, conversations overheard at thanksgiving etc. that can help one another stay grounded in reality.

Somewhere like this forum picked randomly (a topic they care about and would enjoy meeting at) and using that as their place to talk about different topics would help communication because they could know who one another were and have the conversation. Right now everyone is isolated online and easily targeted because it is impossible to know if you are talking to an actual person or being trolled. If they could have actual conversations in a safe space that they could have time to chew on it (rereading old conversations and seeing how your views have changed over time) with people they actually know until their understanding of it is fully formed in a public setting that they can get community input on. They would open themselves up to getting trolled of course, but by seeing it as a group in real time, it would become obvious and not be attributed to 'them' being the ones that are unreasonable and in a good social ecosystem would become obvious trolls and whatever the community rules would happen from there.

I think it would be a interesting thread would be trying to help folks sane wash things that they 'know' are true but every time they try to talk about it with their family the conversations gets trolled into submission. Something they could point to and say look here read this shit and have the conversation from there.

Hopefully that kind of makes sense, I kept adding to it and it got a little out of hand. This is such an important aspect of what I have been radicalized against (propaganda) that I have been finding out that people are having and am very happy to see its being had.

I really hope that when Harris answered what we are turning the page from comes to pass if she wins the election. Because Trump and his handlers funding the attack on our citizens needs to end. It is exhausting.


To underscore my point, watch the interview of Youngkin by Tapper. Saying Youngkin is channeling his best greased pig suggests they were in the same sty - when in actuality, Youngkin's head was up Trump's sweet, rose-smelling ass doing an impression of a fentanyl overdose.

What kills me is that they had him nailed down on his bs too. It seems like the news media is just being lazy on combating these lies. They have the resources to have every single one of his lies dissected and debunked ahead of time so that they could put up a side by side window on showing exactly why what is being said can't be trusted.

Yanking slyly dropped in 'or didn't check' a box was 'self-identifying' themselves as non citizens. Would have been a brilliant opportunity to provide a visual aide showing in real time something as he filibustered. Basically the news needs to learn to intelligently real time meme these propagandists. Point out that what the liar is doing and then ask the next question and move on. Anything else and unfortunately the lies they are allowing their platform's audience does make them 'fake news'.

Asking him maybe how much more likely is it that someone who was a non citizen would tick/not tick that box and later register to vote (which is illegal) vs how many actual citizens just missed that out of the hundreds(?) of thousands that have filled that form out? And would it be worth disenfranchising 6000 American citizens ability to vote because they didn't check their mail to find out they didn't check some stupid box.

Screen Shot 2024-10-16 at 5.48.53 PM.png

The form almost looks like that part is one of those 'office use only' boxes. You can see the tick marks at the top.

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GenericEnigma

Well-Known Member


Luckily just because someone answers they will vote for the Orange idiot doesn't mean they are his supporters though, they could just not give a shit and are in a sea of red hats that just go with the flow without knowing the very real dangers Trump brings to us all.

Hopefully these people will wake up to how we can't let Trump hurt our economy if he gets the opportunity to hammer our workforce again. Trumps trade war with China that he lost and we had to fork over billions to our farmers so they didn't lose everything in it. How his temper tantrum border closings stopped production for businesses, etc.


I don't disagree at all. The micro targeting and the virtual reality that can be created around people is pretty much bullet proof without some large change in how we are allowing the propaganda/advertising to be so mindbendingly intelligently aimed at us. That any shortened period of time that doesn't use up all the soundbites to the arguments they have memorized from seening them over and over again, the conversation ends because everyone gets exhausted. And as soon as the person trying to help bring in information is no longer there, the trolls creep back in and patch up all those cracks with their victim.

I think this is kind of where the foundations of deprogramming people is in this though too. Each trigger phrase has the ability to mean different specific problems in our society that are then able to be flow charted (moving goalposts) into a somewhat rational argument. Building a data base of all the problem areas that we are being targeted in. Shit that is data we should have. Then just map the topic Trump/foreign trolls is/are pushing at the time and know which of those areas the people they are targeting need to have someone they can trust talk with them about while they are being spammed the fear mongering propaganda.

There is the problem of figuring out the flip side to the trigger too and being able to discuss it somewhat non-pissed off-ee because the radicalization is programmed into that relationship for a reason. I ran into a video with a bunch of the newer talking heads that they were talking about the difficulty they are having with this too.


I think it is easy to fall into traps that by the time they get to it, so many social landmines get walked over that conversations end (irl, online I use my bullshit shrodingers cat theory to mentally not burn out by being trolled). I think that the trick is to know where they are going to land and try to basically defuse the landmines before they crop up and get down to talking about what it is that actually is worrying them that is likely a very real problem (even if not as amplified as the internet/news media-esque sphere makes it feel). Which is next to impossible if you are not the ones (foreign and domestic) doing the programming.

Luckily with actual family that are talking with you have (generally) shared experiences that can be leaned on as points of agreements. Friends you grew up with, conversations overheard at thanksgiving etc. that can help one another stay grounded in reality.

Somewhere like this forum picked randomly (a topic they care about and would enjoy meeting at) and using that as their place to talk about different topics would help communication because they could know who one another were and have the conversation. Right now everyone is isolated online and easily targeted because it is impossible to know if you are talking to an actual person or being trolled. If they could have actual conversations in a safe space that they could have time to chew on it (rereading old conversations and seeing how your views have changed over time) with people they actually know until their understanding of it is fully formed in a public setting that they can get community input on. They would open themselves up to getting trolled of course, but by seeing it as a group in real time, it would become obvious and not be attributed to 'them' being the ones that are unreasonable and in a good social ecosystem would become obvious trolls and whatever the community rules would happen from there.

I think it would be a interesting thread would be trying to help folks sane wash things that they 'know' are true but every time they try to talk about it with their family the conversations gets trolled into submission. Something they could point to and say look here read this shit and have the conversation from there.

Hopefully that kind of makes sense, I kept adding to it and it got a little out of hand. This is such an important aspect of what I have been radicalized against (propaganda) that I have been finding out that people are having and am very happy to see its being had.

I really hope that when Harris answered what we are turning the page from comes to pass if she wins the election. Because Trump and his handlers funding the attack on our citizens needs to end. It is exhausting.




What kills me is that they had him nailed down on his bs too. It seems like the news media is just being lazy on combating these lies. They have the resources to have every single one of his lies dissected and debunked ahead of time so that they could put up a side by side window on showing exactly why what is being said can't be trusted.

Yanking slyly dropped in 'or didn't check' a box was 'self-identifying' themselves as non citizens. Would have been a brilliant opportunity to provide a visual aide showing in real time something as he filibustered. Basically the news needs to learn to intelligently real time meme these propagandists. Point out that what the liar is doing and then ask the next question and move on. Anything else and unfortunately the lies they are allowing their platform's audience does make them 'fake news'.

Asking him maybe how much more likely is it that someone who was a non citizen would tick/not tick that box and later register to vote (which is illegal) vs how many actual citizens just missed that out of the hundreds(?) of thousands that have filled that form out? And would it be worth disenfranchising 6000 American citizens ability to vote because they didn't check their mail to find out they didn't check some stupid box.

View attachment 5433918

The form almost looks like that part is one of those 'office use only' boxes. You can see the tick marks at the top.

View attachment 5433979
You've got the cynics like Youngkin. You've got the grifters like Trump. You've got the toadies like Lindsay. But at the end of the day, it truly is a cult. And getting through to them is like getting through to people in a cult.

If you address the issue directly it pushes them further into it. If you show them facts, they have their own. And they are kept in check by those around them who will punish them in one way or another for dissenting. They must come to it themselves in their own way in their own time - if they ever do.

The best we can do is create the space for them to fill. Sure, we can talk about the media (ruled by money) or we can talk about speech (First Amendment), but it won't amount to much. As we create that space, we must maintain the public record and hold onto actual fact and logic so it's still there should the storm pass.

And this is what we are doing. It's quite the slog. Feels like carrying extra weight. Instead of having conversations about policy and the best way forward, we're stuck at the baseline trying to establish facts. It's absolutely ridiculous.

And predictable, given social media. Oh, yes, everyone is the star of their own story and knows better.
 

k0rps

Well-Known Member
Then just map the topic Trump/foreign trolls is/are pushing at the time and know which of those areas the people they are targeting need to have someone they can trust talk with them about while they are being spammed the fear mongering propaganda.
Forgot to respond to your post earlier @hanimmal.. the biggest foreign agent meddling with USA's elections is AIPAC, it's a shame. Do you think it's best (for America) to continue allowing an unregistered foreign state to fund/influence our elections/politicians?


Israeli-American billionaire Miriam Adelson has spent $95 million on her political action committee (PAC) supporting former President and Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump, according to the latest data from the US Federal Election Commission (FEC). The data showed that Adelson made four payments to her super PAC supporting Trump in July, August and September.

The total amount paid by the Israeli-American billionaire to the committee since the beginning of this year amounted to $100 million, according to data published on Tuesday, reported Al Jazeera.net.

This super PAC, known as Preserve America, is one of the major political action committees (so-called “super PACs”) that have the right to raise unlimited amounts of money and spend it independently to support campaigns and political figures without directly funding politicians and parties. With the huge sums of money that Adelson has spent, she is one of Trump’s biggest donors this election season, according to Politico.
 
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hanimmal

Well-Known Member
You've got the cynics like Youngkin. You've got the grifters like Trump. You've got the toadies like Lindsay. But at the end of the day, it truly is a cult. And getting through to them is like getting through to people in a cult.

If you address the issue directly it pushes them further into it. If you show them facts, they have their own. And they are kept in check by those around them who will punish them in one way or another for dissenting. They must come to it themselves in their own way in their own time - if they ever do.

The best we can do is create the space for them to fill. Sure, we can talk about the media (ruled by money) or we can talk about speech (First Amendment), but it won't amount to much. As we create that space, we must maintain the public record and hold onto actual fact and logic so it's still there should the storm pass.

And this is what we are doing. It's quite the slog. Feels like carrying extra weight. Instead of having conversations about policy and the best way forward, we're stuck at the baseline trying to establish facts. It's absolutely ridiculous.

And predictable, given social media. Oh, yes, everyone is the star of their own story and knows better.
Establishing that baseline is so key though, and to all the people working to do that I am truly thankful that they are out there. I figure the propagandists has a couple decade head start of pushing paid content creators (trolls) into every space they could find, that will take some time to overcome.

Before I can even get to facts though I usually find people need a little walking off the ledge with whatever crazy shit it is that they have been spammed into panic over. I try to get them to think of every account they see online as not necessarily a person, but as just a account, which may or may not be catfishing them for some future outcome. And that they should just assume that everything they do online down to how much time is being spent reading a particular article, if they then were triggered enough to go google something what that is, if at any point in the future they went back to that topic, can and will be used in ways to pick fights with people they know who are also being tracked in the same way nudging them into arguments with suggestive bullshit programming that their 'friends' post when they 'talk' about it. And from there try to get them to open up about what it is that they are seeing, which they are then usually understanding what I mean and too embarrassed to talk about the specifics of the sites they visit and the conversation moves on to more real things.

This is pretty much what I mean when I say "Shrodingers Cat". In order to not lose my generally positive view on our world, I try to approach every online 'conversation' like it is a real person, and try to always see the sense in what it is that they are trying to say, but also knowing that at any point that convo/account can turn into a troll and to not let it mentally work on me. And knowing that if I am confronted with something that makes me feel certain ways, I should take the time and rethink everything I am seeing in the new light that it may be on purpose. With the hopes that even though in the moment it may well be a waste of time, someday someone may just stumble onto my post on accident and something clicks.
 

GenericEnigma

Well-Known Member
Establishing that baseline is so key though, and to all the people working to do that I am truly thankful that they are out there. I figure the propagandists has a couple decade head start of pushing paid content creators (trolls) into every space they could find, that will take some time to overcome.

Before I can even get to facts though I usually find people need a little walking off the ledge with whatever crazy shit it is that they have been spammed into panic over. I try to get them to think of every account they see online as not necessarily a person, but as just a account, which may or may not be catfishing them for some future outcome. And that they should just assume that everything they do online down to how much time is being spent reading a particular article, if they then were triggered enough to go google something what that is, if at any point in the future they went back to that topic, can and will be used in ways to pick fights with people they know who are also being tracked in the same way nudging them into arguments with suggestive bullshit programming that their 'friends' post when they 'talk' about it. And from there try to get them to open up about what it is that they are seeing, which they are then usually understanding what I mean and too embarrassed to talk about the specifics of the sites they visit and the conversation moves on to more real things.

This is pretty much what I mean when I say "Shrodingers Cat". In order to not lose my generally positive view on our world, I try to approach every online 'conversation' like it is a real person, and try to always see the sense in what it is that they are trying to say, but also knowing that at any point that convo/account can turn into a troll and to not let it mentally work on me. And knowing that if I am confronted with something that makes me feel certain ways, I should take the time and rethink everything I am seeing in the new light that it may be on purpose. With the hopes that even though in the moment it may well be a waste of time, someday someone may just stumble onto my post on accident and something clicks.
I hear you. Sounds like creating that space.

I like to remind folks that most humans (worldwide) are just trying to get along and connect, and few are really frothing around as it appears on social media or the news.

InternetDogs.gif

Then reality reflects social media, and Jan. 6 happens.

Don't get me started on Gen X's proclivity to believe everything they read on the internet.
 

k0rps

Well-Known Member
I like to remind folks that most humans (worldwide) are just trying to get along and connect, and few are really frothing around as it appears on social media or the news.
Exactly why it's so disheartening to see/know USA politicians are funding/supporting terrorism ($18 billion this year) in one of the most densely packed areas (2.3 million people, mostly children), Gaza. Now it's been over a year of terror and the US says it gives "30 days" to change or else US will implement weapons embargo... Highly doubt that.
 
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