• Here is a link to the full explanation: https://rollitup.org/t/welcome-back-did-you-try-turning-it-off-and-on-again.1104810/

Bush's surge success.

medicineman

New Member
We could have our troops back, but if we leave we're screwed because then they might just come over here and bomb us...................................WTF, they're going to come over here and bomb us with what, a rowboat, a motor-scooter. This maniacal tenet lies more in the realm of the Idiot Hempie and his Dubya speak.
 

mexiblunt

Well-Known Member
We could have our troops back, but if we leave we're screwed because then they might just come over here and bomb us...................................WTF, they're going to come over here and bomb us with what, a rowboat, a motor-scooter. This maniacal tenet lies more in the realm of the Idiot Hempie and his Dubya speak.

Couldn't help but relate "Dubya" speak with "Doublespeak" from orwells 1984. Slogans suck as "war is peace" slavery is freedom" etc. just hit me when I read that.
 

hempie

New Member
We could have our troops back, but if we leave we're screwed because then they might just come over here and bomb us...................................WTF, they're going to come over here and bomb us with what, a rowboat, a motor-scooter. This maniacal tenet lies more in the realm of the Idiot Hempie and his Dubya speak.
row boat worked on the USS Cole. car bombs on our embassys and on the first attack on the wtc and 3 planes. 1 on the pentagon and 2 on the wtc.also dont forget the 1 that crashed in pa. you must suffer from memory loss.
 

medicineman

New Member
row boat worked on the USS Cole. car bombs on our embassys and on the first attack on the wtc and 3 planes. 1 on the pentagon and 2 on the wtc.also dont forget the 1 that crashed in pa. you must suffer from memory loss.
You must suffer from Idiocy.
 

Ethnobotanist

Well-Known Member
hes dumb for not making iraq look like the moon
That's about the most ignorant and reprehensible thing I've ever heard anyone say on this board. I think I just lost any iota of respect I once had for you. You seem to place absolutely no value on human life except the lives you personally value. And I'm sorry, but that makes you something of a monster.

That being said, I do actually see to an extent what you MIGHT be saying. There's no solution to Islamic Fundamentalism except eradicating it, one way or another (through violence, conversion, or secularism). Islam has a natural tendency toward extremism, because doctrines like armed Jihad are fundamental parts of not just Islamic history, but the hadith of the prophet, and so cannot be reformed with the way Islam is structured. And tolerance is nearly a foreign concept within Islam; the only people tolerated are dhimmis (People of the Book- a small selection of monotheists), and that tolerance is very limited. They are effectively second class citizens that are deprived of many basic rights given to us by our governments, some of them being basic human rights that should be universally recognized (such as freedom of religion and assembly). But violence begets violence. For every solution you implement toward a problem, more problems are created. Forceful solutions beget more problems, and ones harder to solve at that. "Peaceful" solutions also generate problems to deal with, but they are generally more manageable, especially in term of escalation.

So, your statement to me is reprehensible in that you condone wholesale genoicide against the Iraqi people, many of whom are simply bound to their worldview by the culture they live in. They are still human beings, and most of them, while not necessarily innocent, in no way deserve to die. And that you do not realize that this would turn the tide against any supposed endeavour to further freedom, which let's be honest, was never what this war was about, is shocking. Iraq was a country ruled by a brutal dictator, but it was a secular one. Now it is an Islamic republic that in time will further supress freedom to an extent that Sadaam never did, if it even emerges through this crucible intact. We did this. We, along with the British, more or less created Afghanistan and enabled a favourable climate for the Iranian Revolution in our quest to rid the world of Soviet Communism, which now we can recognize was the lesser of two evils.

And to clarify, I am neither a member of the "left", nor the "right", but I agree and disagree with aspects of both. I am throroughly libertarian however, choosing to disengage from catering to bi-partisan politics which have ravaged our political landscape (it works, it just doesn't work nearly as well as it should). I am a patriot, but not a nationalist, and every day I try to support the cause for freedom. So don't go calling me a "lefty" in defending yourself.

~Ethno
 

Pizip

Well-Known Member
you're on the right track but cut and run is the worse possible thing we can do.if the world perceives us as cowards and weak because we cant finish a war that should of been over a long time ago then it would further jeopardise our national security as well as our influence.

Yeah that is true.
 

hempie

New Member
ethno- you almost got me. and you're right about 1 thing.all i care about is the well being of my country.unfortunately people must die in war and if it means that others have to fall to secure our sovereignty then so be it.genocide?not sure where you got that out of what i said but its cool.no where did i say death to all iraqis.nor is it what i believe.you went wrong when you attempted to find deeper meaning in a short sentence. our military isnt geared towards gorilla warfare but towards battles in the field, air, and sea. were fighting their style of war instead of making them fight ours. and our style involves blowing them away. china has already said that they dont fear a war with us because the U.S isnt prepared to do what it takes to win a war. so chew on that for awhile.
 

Ethnobotanist

Well-Known Member
ethno- you almost got me. and you're right about 1 thing.all i care about is the well being of my country.unfortunately people must die in war and if it means that others have to fall to secure our sovereignty then so be it.genocide?not sure where you got that out of what i said but its cool.no where did i say death to all iraqis.nor is it what i believe.you went wrong when you attempted to find deeper meaning in a short sentence. our military isnt geared towards gorilla warfare but towards battles in the field, air, and see. were fighting their style of war instead of making them fight ours. and our style involves blowing them away. china has already said that they dont fear a war with us because the U.S isnt prepared to do what it takes to win a war. so chew on that for awhile.
Granted, was a bit harsh on you. And I agree with you on the method of guerilla warfare. But in this last fifty years, it's generally been owned up to that we took too many liberties with too many lives. While it might mean that warfare is that much harder to wage, I think it's a step in the right direction from an ethical perspective. Additionally, if you don't care about the ethical perspective, it's simply the evolution of warfare. Hence the focus on "Future Force" and similar projects throughout most of the countries of the world. Less manpower, strategic precision strikes. Overall, reduced casualties. The technology and intelligence gathering we're capable of today makes this all possible, and preferrable. Preferable, at least, to total annihilation or wholescale bombing. Anyone who thinks the Cold War actually ended is mad. It's just shifted terms and playing fields.

I don't approve of war at all, but I do realize that armed combat, with the current state of the world, is sometimes necessary. With all of that being said, what you suggested IS tantamount to smallscale genocide, given the level of technology we have now. If the yield on our explosives doesn't wipe out an insane amount of people (more so than was ever possible in WW2 or even Vietnam), then the depleted uranium we use on our bombs will kill and/or mutate generations of Iraqis to come. In fact, what we used in the Gulf War has done just that; it's quite a reality, not hype and hyperbole. And we might have to face this in some small part now. Even though the U.S. Military said it wasn't going to use depleted Uranium shells, testing has shown that we have, despite the promises from the current administration. The amount of destruction we would cause using carpet bombing tactics would indeed wipe out the majority of the population. Hence, one of the many reasons (besides diplomatic relations with our allies) we don't use these tactics. That would be a lot of blood on our hands.

And much as it saddens me, we also have to consider how valuable that land is, and not just for the oil. I'm sure this is one of the reasons also why such tactics are not employed. Much of what is Western civilization began in that area. The archaeological and historical value of that region is worth more than all of the oil there. Unfortunately, that's been one of the least protected Iraqi resources. The U.S. military has destroyed A LOT of the archaeological record in Babylon, when they didn't need to. And received little heat for it. Likewise, when we invaded, the oil rigs were guarded, but not the museums. And we lost ancient texts that were never translated (and might never be recovered again). It might not matter to you, but I guarantee that future generations are going to downright loathe us for this. We're doing the bare minimum regarding this. Our military is stretched so thin though... I do indeed recognize the logistical problems in trying to do more.

What you said is still for the most part rephrensible. But if you think you're right on any point, convince me with logic. As you can see, I'm not close-minded, and will indeed consider your point. And this name calling and bickering between you guys... If you care about your fellow countrymen, Hempie, then try constructively conversing with them rather than demeaning them personally. I realize that fanatic liberals can be difficult to speak with. Because in their heads, they're yelling, and it shows, making it difficult to argue a point. But if you disagree with them, back up any sardonic comments made with YOUR reasoning, because most of what you've said seem to be the same sound bites heard over and over again on conservative radio. It's the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. ;-)

Politics really is one of those things that's just nearly impossible to discuss, it seems.

~Ethno
 

krime13

Well-Known Member
Ethno, I apologise to you for loosing my temper, however I dont consider my self a fanatic or even a liberal for that matter, but as you might have already guessed me and Hempie have some history and its hard to be objective...
 

Ethnobotanist

Well-Known Member
No need to apologize for anything, my friend.

We're all friends here. And I thought I saw a little rivalry. But anyway, I was more playing to conservative sympathy than labelling you a "yelling liberal" or anything of the sort. I think such labelling is counterproductive to... much of anything really, personally or politically. The only liberals who really get under my skin anyway are the bleeding hearts who seem to want to stir up controversy and partisanship more than push for tangible progress. People should push for a better world, but they just need to be realistic and pragmatic about it. Likewise, ultra-conservatives are just people afraid of changing their comfortable status quo and being nasty about it.
Overgeneralizations, yes. But it's not far off.

~Ethno
 

medicineman

New Member
No need to apologize for anything, my friend.

We're all friends here. And I thought I saw a little rivalry. But anyway, I was more playing to conservative sympathy than labelling you a "yelling liberal" or anything of the sort. I think such labelling is counterproductive to... much of anything really, personally or politically. The only liberals who really get under my skin anyway are the bleeding hearts who seem to want to stir up controversy and partisanship more than push for tangible progress. People should push for a better world, but they just need to be realistic and pragmatic about it. Likewise, ultra-conservatives are just people afraid of changing their comfortable status quo and being nasty about it.
Overgeneralizations, yes. But it's not far off.

~Ethno
Ethno, you talk a mean streak so here's the question. How would you push for a better World? Please be realistic and pragmatic.
 
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