Europe

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
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March 2, 2009
Growing Economic Crisis Threatens the Idea of One Europe

By STEVEN ERLANGER and STEPHEN CASTLE
PARIS — The leaders of the European Union gathered Sunday in Brussels in an emergency summit meeting that seemed to highlight the very worries it was designed to calm: that the world economic crisis has unleashed forces threatening to split Europe into rival camps.
An urgent call from Hungary for a large bailout for newer, Eastern members was bluntly rejected by Europe’s strongest economy, Germany, and received little support from other countries. Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany, facing federal elections in September, said countries must be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.





“Saying that the situation is the same for all Central and Eastern European states, I don’t see that,” Mrs. Merkel told reporters. She spoke after Prime Minister Ferenc Gyurcsany of Hungary warned, “We should not allow that a new Iron Curtain should be set up and divide Europe.”


Does any one else feel like doing a double take after reading that?



With uncertain leadership and few powerful collective institutions, the European Union is struggling with the strains this crisis has inevitably produced among 27 countries with uneven levels of development.
The traditional concept of “solidarity” is being undermined by protectionist pressures in some member countries and the rigors of maintaining a common currency, the euro, for a region that has diverse economic needs. Particularly acute economic problems in some newer members that once were part of the Soviet bloc have only made matters worse.



Europe’s difficulties are in sharp contrast to the American response. President Obama has just announced a budget that will send the United States more deeply into debt but that also makes an effort to redistribute income and overhaul health care, improve education and combat environmental problems.


Redistributing Income is a stupid idea, and is not the same as redistributing Wealth. In short, the government is making it harder for people to amass wealth on their own, by taking larger and larger chunks of their income as they get more and more income.


Fortunes such as Bill Gates and Warren Buffetts are safe from these new attempts at redistributing Income, and thus the only people that suffer are those that produce new sources of wealth. Entrepreneurs and business people. I really doubt that Bill Gates and Warren Buffet would have supported these idiotic liberal policies as they were starting their respective businesses.


Attempting to Overhaul Health Care is also a stupid idea that will only succeed in making it more expensive, rarer, and less effective, witness the Education system.


Which is once again up for "Improvement". Attempts to improve it through spending more have failed. The United States spends more on education than any other country in the world, and yet some how the Democrats believe that if we just spend more all the problems will be resolved. Perhaps they should be looking at giving more autonomy to schools and forcefully dissolving the Teachers' Union so that Incompetent or Criminal Teachers can be fired with out going through a billion hoops.


As far as Environmental Problems. One only needs to ask what environmental problems? The answer to that is of course the emission of Carbon Dioxide, which if one looks at weather trends for the last 10 years IS NOT A Problem. Perhaps the Democrats will look at actual problems such as the usage of mercury in the refining of Gold in third world countries, or the scarcity of water in the South West (Water which could easily be transported from the oceans if research was done to find an economical way to desalify sea water.)


Instead the Democrats are focusing on a non-problem that probably benefits the environment by encouraging more plant growth, and thus is sustainable. Then there is the fact that Gore's vaunted "Consensus" of "Scientists" was anything but.



Whether Europe can reach across constituencies to create consensus, however, has been an open, and suddenly pressing, question.
“The European Union will now have to prove whether it is just a fair-weather union or has a real joint political destiny,” said Stefan Kornelius, the foreign editor of the German newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung. “We always said you can’t really have a currency union without a political union, and we don’t have one. There is no joint fiscal policy, no joint tax policy, no joint policy on which industries to subsidize or not. And none of the leaders is strong enough to pull the others out of the mud.”


Well, this can be interesting. I'm hoping that it will dissolve.



Thomas Klau, Paris director of the European Council on Foreign Relations, an independent research and advocacy group, said, “This crisis affects the political union that backs the euro and of course the E.U. as a whole, and solidarity is at the heart of the debate.”
The crisis also has implications for Washington, which wants a European Union that can promote common interests in places like Afghanistan and the Middle East with financial and military help.



Which Germany and France have shown they are willing to do as long as the ME countries they are helping are our enemies. One only need to look at the German and French Contracts with Iraq and Iran for proof of that. Instead of hamstringing our own corporations with restrictive trade policies we should be allowing them to engage in sending goods to Iran, and other nations where they are not currently permitted to send goods.


As Benjamin Franklin said, "No country was ever harmed by trade."


It would also be a suitable way to at least have some kind of impact on our trade deficits.



“All of that is in doubt if the cornerstone of the E.U. — its internal market, economic union and solidarity — is in question,” said Ronald D. Asmus, a former State Department official who runs the Brussels office of the German Marshall Fund.


Funny thing that, Marshall Fund, you mean we're still giving Europe Billions in Aid?



The problems are basically twofold: within the inner core of nations that use the euro as their common currency, which together have an economy roughly the size of the United States’; and within the larger European Union.



And almost 2x the population, a good percentage of which are unemployed. Hardly an example to inspire mimicry.



The 16 nations that use the euro — introduced in 1999, and one of the proudest European accomplishments — must submit to the monetary leadership of the European Central Bank. That keeps some members hardest hit by the economic downturn, like Ireland, Spain, Italy and Greece, from unilaterally taking radical steps to stimulate their economies.



The bankers control everything... Yeah, just what we should emulate here in the United States.



Germany once vowed never to bail out weaker members in return for giving up its strong national currency, the deutsche mark. But German leaders are now faced with the unpalatable prospect of having to put German money at risk to bail out less responsible partners that do not adhere to European fiscal rules.


Perhaps Germany will choose to go its own way, separating itself from the EU, and ending this idiotic European Experiment. Or perhaps the other members will choose to go their own way and stop allowing Germany and France to dictate to them, an example that the United States should emulate if those nations choose to do so.



Within the larger European Union, fissures are growing between older members and newer ones, especially those that lived under the yoke of Soviet socialism. Some countries of Central Europe, like the Czech Republic and Poland, are doing relatively well. Others, including Hungary, Romania and the Baltic states, are in a state of near-meltdown.



The United States catches a cold and the world gets Pneumonia. So much for them not needing us...



But only two newer members — tiny Slovenia and Slovakia — are protected by being among the countries that use the euro, and there was little support on Sunday for changing the rules to allow more to join quickly.



Germany is having economic difficulties of its own. Decreasing Exports due to China having the same problem. Yet the NY Slimes is saying that having the Euro as a currency is protecting Slovenia and Slovakia? Perhaps what is really protecting those two tiny nations is not being as interconnected with the rest of the world as other members of the EU.



Many new members have seen their currencies plummet against the euro. That has made their debt repayments to European banks, their primary lenders, a much greater burden even as the global recession has meant a plunge in orders from consumers in the West. Some countries are asking for aid, both from their European partners and from the International Monetary Fund, to prop up their currencies and the banks.



Ah yes, IMF, Financed mostly by the United States, and how we pay tribute to all the nations that agree to help us...



While Western European countries are reluctant, with their own problems both at home and among the countries using the euro, there is a deep interconnectedness in any case.



Der... Why do these people state the obvious?



Much of the debt at risk in Eastern Europe is on the books of euro zone banks — especially ones in Austria and Italy. The same is true of problems farther afield, in Ukraine, which is not yet a member.
Having watched the Soviet Union collapse, the countries of Central and Eastern Europe embraced the liberal, capitalist model as the price of integration with Europe. That model is now badly tarnished, and the newer members feel adrift.



Which must be why they are in such a rush to go back to Communism... wait you mean they aren't? OMFG it's a conspiracy to make the liberals look like idiots.



Before the larger European summit meeting on Sunday, the Poles called an unprecedented meeting of nine of the new member nations in the East to discuss common grievances.



Like the fact that they are subject to the whims of France and Germany?



Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek of the Czech Republic, which holds the rotating presidency of the European Union, tried to ease tensions, insisting that no member would be left “in the lurch.”


Strange, didn't Germany just say it wasn't going to help any other nations? Isn't that leaving them in the "lurch?"



“We do not want any dividing lines; we do not want a Europe divided along a north-south or east-west line, pursuing a beggar-thy-neighbor policy,” Mr. Topolanek said.
But his Hungarian colleague, Mr. Gyurcsany, called for a special European Union fund of up to $241 billion to protect the weakest members. His government circulated a paper on Sunday suggesting that Central Europe’s refinancing needs this year could total $380 billion.
“Failure to act,” the paper said, “could cause a second round of systemic meltdowns that would mainly hit the euro zone economies.”
Mrs. Merkel opposed an undifferentiated package, although she suggested on Thursday that targeted help might be offered to specific countries, like Ireland.







Governments of the countries of the European Union have already spent a total of $380 billion in bank recapitalizations and put up $3.17 trillion to guarantee banks’ loans and try to get credit moving again.
On Friday, the European Bank of Reconstruction and Development, the European Investment Bank and the World Bank said they would jointly provide $31.1 billion to support Eastern European nations, but much more will be needed.
Mr. Klau, of the European Council on Foreign Relations, sees a worrying loss of faith in a certain brand of capitalism. “It’s politically dangerous there since they’ve just emerged from an ultraregulated and stifling system, were confronted with shock therapy that created great hardship, and are just beginning to recover and stabilize,” he said. “Now they’re thrown back into an economic and political cauldron.”
The new members are finding that their European partners are putting their own national interests ahead of “collective and necessary solidarity,” Mr. Klau said.
Charles Grant, director of the Center for European Reform, a research group in London, is more sanguine, however. “My expectation is that the euro zone countries, out of pure self-interest, will bail each other out,” he said. “For Central and Eastern Europe it is too early to say there won’t be solidarity. But non-E.U. countries in the east — particularly Ukraine — seem to be the No. 1 worry.”
Steven Erlanger reported from Paris, and Stephen Castle from Brussels.

About the only thing of interest in this article is the fact that the EU may be self-disintegrating due to the policies put forth by France and Germany. For all their talk of how the EU would help all their members they are showing that they were not truly interested in helping other EuroZone nations, but in stealing from them by forcing them to pay into the EU's coffers through international taxation (Carbon Taxes.)

Perhaps the world will be able to let out a collective laugh when the entire "community" starts fighting again, and we will no longer here about how all nations should become more interconnected with their neighbors, having seen direct proof of how idiotic that idea is. I for one would not miss all the crazy talk of NAFTA and a NAU.



 

medicineman

New Member
Well, after reading the first paragraph and then observing your super critical critique, something about the democrats ruining the country, I decided to forego reading any further. This was just another scathing repuke attack on Obamas recovery plan. You are so predictable.
 

Microdizzey

Well-Known Member
Just because some countries don't agree with a Global New Deal, doesn't mean it's not going to happen. Most of our states in America strongly oppose it. This only means that there will be retaliation against those who are a part of the new system.



Man Brutal, how is this so hard for you to grasp? When the world is in a financial meltdown from failed economic plans, it's the perfect opportunity to start over or rebuild with new ideas.

And if you think NAFTA isn't real or some shit, I'm just gonna stop talking to you now. You must be incredibly retarded. America is collapsing, Mexico already is, and Canada is slowly following. What do you seriously expect to happen from this? We're all just going to repair and be fixed and everything is going to be the same again?
 

stalebiscuit

Well-Known Member
it was bound to happen

the invention of the Euro was just a way to prolong their eventual collapse, honestly socialist systems never work for long, you must constantly tweak and maneuver until your on the brink of collapse
 

jdubg23

Active Member
Instead the Democrats are focusing on a non-problem that probably benefits the environment by encouraging more plant growth, and thus is sustainable. Then there is the fact that Gore's vaunted "Consensus" of "Scientists" was anything but.


you talk about FACTS and absolutes, i wish to see the evidence to support such claims....
 

stalebiscuit

Well-Known Member
Instead the Democrats are focusing on a non-problem that probably benefits the environment by encouraging more plant growth, and thus is sustainable. Then there is the fact that Gore's vaunted "Consensus" of "Scientists" was anything but.


you talk about FACTS and absolutes, i wish to see the evidence to support such claims....
you could just provide your own disputing this

just saying
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
Instead the Democrats are focusing on a non-problem that probably benefits the environment by encouraging more plant growth, and thus is sustainable. Then there is the fact that Gore's vaunted "Consensus" of "Scientists" was anything but.


you talk about FACTS and absolutes, i wish to see the evidence to support such claims....
There are facts and absolutes proving my assertions that Gore was full of BS. I find it tedious repeating my self, and citing the same sources over and over again from earlier posts, but I believe I mention sources for my attacks on Gore and his "Consensus" in the Iran Update thread.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
[FONT=times new roman,times]“I am a skeptic…Global warming has become a new religion.” - Nobel Prize Winner for Physics, Ivar Giaever. [/FONT]
 

ilkhan

Well-Known Member
Yay!! Good ridence to the EU HAHA!! Globalism what a joke. Yeah they will try their "new deal" I guess Obama will be meeting with the PM of the UK soon undoubtedly to discuss this monsterous creation. Just more of the same in new cloths. Let the Globalists burn in the mess they made.

I agree with the guy with the nobel prize!!
 

ViRedd

New Member
Well, after reading the first paragraph and then observing your super critical critique, something about the democrats ruining the country, I decided to forego reading any further. This was just another scathing repuke attack on Obamas recovery plan. You are so predictable.
And this is exactly why your political acumen is so very, very shallow, Med. I mean ... "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up!"

Vi
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
Uhhh, like yous is not??? Hahahahahohohohehehe,~LOL~. You get funnier with every post.
No, med, the problem with your statement is that your taking simplicity to mean shallowness. Where as your theory is the theory of shallowness, and a lack of complexity in individuals, Capitalism allows for the expression of human complexity, and acknowledges that the Chaos that is inherent in humanity having a free will is actually a force for good.

Just because Capitalism can be summed up in simple terms does not make it shallow. There is nothing shallow about the concept of each receiving what his own effort produces.
 

misshestermoffitt

New Member
Fact police, one person's opinion does not a fact make.

Where are the facts that Al Gore is wrong?

(No I'm not supporting Gore, just asking to see the facts that you claim are out there and the bible still doesn't count as a fact). :bigjoint:



[FONT=times new roman,times]“I am a skeptic…Global warming has become a new religion.” - Nobel Prize Winner for Physics, Ivar Giaever. [/FONT]
 

ilkhan

Well-Known Member
I'm not going to go threw the opposing ideas here (don't want you to have to read a book in this post google it) I know I'm not seeing any global warming I think its getting colder. however if the world were to become warmer it would open up huge areas of Siberia and Canada to development. The same process that allowed the vikings to colonize Greenland. Earth goes threw changes it happens. We have had little ice ages and heat spells in our recorded history. This is all hype and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it if the planet is warming. Even Kyoto would only lower temps by about .15 degrees C by 2100. .15 degrees for as much as a 3% loss in GDP are you kidding me.
 

medicineman

New Member
No, med, the problem with your statement is that your taking simplicity to mean shallowness. Where as your theory is the theory of shallowness, and a lack of complexity in individuals, Capitalism allows for the expression of human complexity, and acknowledges that the Chaos that is inherent in humanity having a free will is actually a force for good.

Just because Capitalism can be summed up in simple terms does not make it shallow. There is nothing shallow about the concept of each receiving what his own effort produces.
Capitalism really means that the priveledged will prevail, as they have most of the capital. Unless you are extremely lucky, If you did not come from priveledge, your chances of ever getting out of the class you came from are extremely limited. Socialism on the other hand (True socialism) contends that everyone should have an equal chance to succeed. Success can be measured in many ways but in this context, it is about the money/wealth. If you aint born with it, your chances of ever having it are slim to none.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
Capitalism really means that the priveledged will prevail, as they have most of the capital. Unless you are extremely lucky, If you did not come from priveledge, your chances of ever getting out of the class you came from are extremely limited. Socialism on the other hand (True socialism) contends that everyone should have an equal chance to succeed. Success can be measured in many ways but in this context, it is about the money/wealth. If you aint born with it, your chances of ever having it are slim to none.
No, Med, Capitalism means that any one that gets off their ass will prevail.

You can't win if you don't play.

Unfortunately the government has long ago decided that the losers should be able to feel like winners and steals the accumulated wealth from the winners to give it to the losers.

It's the liberals traditional approach to making everyone equal. Instead of worrying about equality of opportunity (which was never an issue) they have to act in their typical mindless fashion and try to create equality of outcomes.

In short, they guarantee a parasitical society. One that caters to the lowest common denominator instead of the highest. One that demands mediocrity instead of excellence, because excellence makes losers look like, well, LOSERS.
 

misshestermoffitt

New Member
Not in every case. You have to grease the palms to make the wheels of capitolism turn.

Capitolism has lead to lies that make substances illegal. Those lies took hold because the liars has pleny of palm grease.

Even today the palms are greased, big pharmacy is trying to slide a law through that states that eveything down to tylenol needs to have a doctors prescription. Even vitamins would need a doctors prescription. Do you realize how much money the for profit health industry will rake in if they get that passed? Do you realize how many makers of over the counter medicnes will lose out and end up closed if this happens?

How is that prevailing for those who are off their ass making vitamin c tablets or the like? What if they lose the ability to market their product because the health industry has more cash palm grease than they do?



No, Med, Capitalism means that any one that gets off their ass will prevail.

You can't win if you don't play.

.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
Not in every case. You have to grease the palms to make the wheels of capitolism turn.

Capitolism has lead to lies that make substances illegal. Those lies took hold because the liars has pleny of palm grease.

Even today the palms are greased, big pharmacy is trying to slide a law through that states that eveything down to tylenol needs to have a doctors prescription. Even vitamins would need a doctors prescription. Do you realize how much money the for profit health industry will rake in if they get that passed? Do you realize how many makers of over the counter medicnes will lose out and end up closed if this happens?

How is that prevailing for those who are off their ass making vitamin c tablets or the like? What if they lose the ability to market their product because the health industry has more cash palm grease than they do?
STill holding up Marijuana as an example of the evils of Capitalism, eh Miss?

How drone-ish of you.

I thought I already expressed my opinion (which you failed to comment on) that that was a result of government. With out the government playing along with their actions the Corporations that attempted to criminalize hemp would have been powerless.

Thus, that was a failure of the government.
 

ilkhan

Well-Known Member
Government is a net drag on the economy and the people, all people. Don't drag this down into class warfare. That is what "They" want "They" want American against American instead of pointing attention to the Military-industrial complex, the Greasing the palm as you say. Don't lose sight of that. Socialists and "true" Capitalists can agree we don't want faceless corporations and government getting in bed together to make life great for the mega corps. While I'm not opposed to mega-corps I don't want them to unfairly regulate competition out of business. If we do that we doom capitalism and are stuck with ever expanding government and consistent loss of liberty.

What is needed is a level playing field. Allow competition to flourish and human need will propel man to new heights. Limit competition and subsidize the "Less Fortunate" and the less fortunate will never climb out of the box you put them in. The immigrants who came to this land did not come here because they knew government was gonna give them things, they came to build a better life for themselves.

Consider this, If Medman and I were trapped on an island alone. Perhaps I am able to catch fish, and Medman is not (not saying anything about your fishing skillz med) would it be right for Medman to bash my head and injure or kill me to eat my fish?? No, this is wrong and Medman would agree with me, I'm sure. However, I spend all my time trying to catch MY abundant fish and have precious little time to collect firewood. Would it not be better If I said "MedMan, If you will collect firewood and maybe some coconuts for me then I will share the fish with you." This is capitalism and it isn't a theory it is simply how the world works. Soon not only would we survive we would thrive and in short order we would be building a boat to get us off that rock, or at least to explore the nearby islands for pot, booze and hookers.

Now consider this. MedMan is getting a scad of fish but I can't seem to get shit. So I lay in wait for him to bring the days catch in and I take a club to him beat him down and take his fish. I eat well that night but get no sleep. Medman is injured by my attack and is now unable to catch fish. I come back the next day expecting to find MedMan with Fish. I find Medman with a broken Leg and no fish. How will I eat now?? I will have a hard time ahead of me and If I do not apologize to Medman and tend to him, when he recovers he will seek vengeance upon me, and rightly so. Never mind the Pot, Booze and hookers. This is socialism and the damage done by it.

Now their maybe debate between us as to the difficulty of our respective jobs in our mini society. I spend all day wading in waist deep water with a keen eye out for tiger sharks, deadly bottom fish and sea snakes. MedMan must climb trees that bloody his hands and feet. He must avoid stinging insects and snakes. We may get it in our heads one does not deserve what he gets because he is lazy or has a bad day. Resentment can be created and it can cause class warfare water people versus forest people. But make no mistake these resentments can be solved with talk. Never force.

In my opinion their is never a good time to initiate force on another unless all avenues of redress have been tried and re-tried. A Government must as a matter of course initiate force in order to provide for the promises it makes this force should be used only to protect Life, liberty and property. any force used to reallocate wealth is theft, thuggery and lawlessness.
 

medicineman

New Member
Government is a net drag on the economy and the people, all people. Don't drag this down into class warfare. That is what "They" want "They" want American against American instead of pointing attention to the Military-industrial complex, the Greasing the palm as you say. Don't lose sight of that. Socialists and "true" Capitalists can agree we don't want faceless corporations and government getting in bed together to make life great for the mega corps. While I'm not opposed to mega-corps I don't want them to unfairly regulate competition out of business. If we do that we doom capitalism and are stuck with ever expanding government and consistent loss of liberty.

What is needed is a level playing field. Allow competition to flourish and human need will propel man to new heights. Limit competition and subsidize the "Less Fortunate" and the less fortunate will never climb out of the box you put them in. The immigrants who came to this land did not come here because they knew government was gonna give them things, they came to build a better life for themselves.

Consider this, If Medman and I were trapped on an island alone. Perhaps I am able to catch fish, and Medman is not (not saying anything about your fishing skillz med) would it be right for Medman to bash my head and injure or kill me to eat my fish?? No, this is wrong and Medman would agree with me, I'm sure. However, I spend all my time trying to catch MY abundant fish and have precious little time to collect firewood. Would it not be better If I said "MedMan, If you will collect firewood and maybe some coconuts for me then I will share the fish with you." This is capitalism and it isn't a theory it is simply how the world works. Soon not only would we survive we would thrive and in short order we would be building a boat to get us off that rock, or at least to explore the nearby islands for pot, booze and hookers.

Now consider this. MedMan is getting a scad of fish but I can't seem to get shit. So I lay in wait for him to bring the days catch in and I take a club to him beat him down and take his fish. I eat well that night but get no sleep. Medman is injured by my attack and is now unable to catch fish. I come back the next day expecting to find MedMan with Fish. I find Medman with a broken Leg and no fish. How will I eat now?? I will have a hard time ahead of me and If I do not apologize to Medman and tend to him, when he recovers he will seek vengeance upon me, and rightly so. Never mind the Pot, Booze and hookers. This is socialism and the damage done by it.

Now their maybe debate between us as to the difficulty of our respective jobs in our mini society. I spend all day wading in waist deep water with a keen eye out for tiger sharks, deadly bottom fish and sea snakes. MedMan must climb trees that bloody his hands and feet. He must avoid stinging insects and snakes. We may get it in our heads one does not deserve what he gets because he is lazy or has a bad day. Resentment can be created and it can cause class warfare water people versus forest people. But make no mistake these resentments can be solved with talk. Never force.

In my opinion their is never a good time to initiate force on another unless all avenues of redress have been tried and re-tried. A Government must as a matter of course initiate force in order to provide for the promises it makes this force should be used only to protect Life, liberty and property. any force used to reallocate wealth is theft, thuggery and lawlessness.
I agree with your premis that you and I should share the fruits of our labor, (On an Island by ourselves). What I disagree with about Capitalism is the disparity of compensation recieved by the ruling class as opposed to the working class and their problem of not having enough jobs to go around. I agree with the Premis that people should earn their way, but when there are no jobs, what then. Say there are 1,000 jobs and 3,000 people, what shall we do, let the 2,000 starve? This is most definently a class warfare situation, The poor against the ruling class. They, (the ruling class) have placated us with decent paying jobs untill the last 20 or so years, then the greed kicked in and the top tier started going up and the middle and bottom started going down. This is continuing at an unprecedented rate. The rich are still rich though, and will stay rich unless we pry it from their iron grip.
 
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