Oil Companies Are Using a Simple Trick to Bilk Consumers out of Billions

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
By Brian Beutler, Media Consortium. Posted August 14, 2007.

Oil companies know that gasoline expands at higher temperatures and has less volume at lower ones, but they've refused to upgrade gas stations with a simple tool that would adjust the price of gas according to its temperature.

It's probably intuitive to most people that the gasoline in their fuel tank expands in the heat -- just like doorframes and cookware and everything else on the planet. What's probably less intuitive is that, in the United States, this physical phenomenon pumps a nearly $2 billion annual windfall out of consumers' pockets and into oil company coffers, according to numerous calculations, including a recent House of Representatives study.

The North Carolina-based company Gilbarco Veeder-Root manufactures a device -- a temperature-sensitive chamber for fuel -- that, if affixed to gasoline pumps across the country, would return that money to consumers and help relieve some of our storied gas-price pressures. The device -- and others like it -- is simple, functional and, in fact, already in widespread use at gas stations all across Canada. Last month, Democratic presidential hopeful and Ohio Rep. Dennis Kucinich, chair of the Domestic Policy Subcommittee, held the second in a series of hearings to investigate why the technology has never made it into the American market.

Temperature is just one of the many variables that determine how much energy one tank of gasoline contains, and therefore how many miles it will pull your car. But the effects of temperature change are easier to calculate than, say, ethanol content or petroleum grade -- and are therefore also easy to correct for. Here's how it works.

A gallon of gasoline contains a certain number of molecules, which combust in your car's engine to provide it with energy. If you heat up that gallon of gasoline it will expand, leaving you with a larger volume of gas than the gallon with which you started. But your new volume will contain the same number of combustible molecules and therefore will provide the same amount of energy as it did prior to the heating. That means a tank full of "hot" gas will provide a car with less energy than will the same tank full of "cool" gas, which is why you've probably been advised (correctly) not to buy gasoline when it's hot outside. Simple, right?

It is if you live in Canada, at least. There, gasoline retailers install metering systems in their pumps to determine how much the fuel they sell has cooled or heated from its standardized refinery temperature, and then adjust the price accordingly. If the fuel has become warmer, it also becomes cheaper. If it has cooled, it becomes more expensive. Which is to say that Canadians -- to a greater extent than Americans -- pay for the energy they get out of the gasoline and not for the volume of liquid fuel they purchase.

Of course, on average, Canada is pretty cold and the United States is pretty hot. So it benefits both retailers and oil companies to correct for temperature in Canada, but to price by volume in the United States But the idea of correcting price for temperature has deep roots in the industry: oil companies have done so for gasoline wholesalers for nearly a century. The only ones in the North American energy chain who pay by volume rather than by energy value are U.S. consumers.

Kucinich's hearings were designed to shed light on this and other double standards. Oil company executives, testifying under threat of subpoena, told the subcommittee that gas retailers in the United States don't use heat meters -- known as "automatic temperature compensation" -- because state regs don't let them. "State weights and measures regulations have not adopted temperature correction," said Hugh Cooley, a Shell Oil Company vice president, in answer to Kucinich's inquiries. Ben Soraci, Director of General Sales for ExxonMobil, echoed Cooley, insisting that "across the U.S. a gallon is still defined as 231 cubic inches by law."

But Kucinich offered evidence to the contrary. His subcommittee asked the National Institutes of Standards and Technology to survey all 50 states and the District of Columbia about their weights and measures rules. "Most states permit the use of temperature compensation at both the wholesale and retail level," Kucinich said the survey found. "In fact, NIST could find that automatic temperature compensation is only expressly prohibited in nine states for retail."

Further, Kucinich found that Gilbarco Veeder-Root sought certification for its automatic temperature compensation equipment in California. Gilbarco was responding to what it has said was the stated interest of California gas retailers, but it found no buyers when the state gave its product the OK.

Cooley and Soraci say that's unsurprising because the cost for implementing devices like Gilbarco's, an investment estimated to be about $2,500 per unit, would be borne by retailers -- the majority of which are affiliated only loosely with big oil companies -- and then ultimately passed on to the consumer. The oil execs' contention is true as far as it goes, but belies the fact that oil companies maintain funds -- called "image" and "development" funds -- meant to help so-called arms-length retailers pay for modifications and improvements to their gas stations. The money is there to extend to consumers the same fair deal wholesalers get, but the companies don't particularly want to spend it.

Kucinich's subcommittee is now also investigating whether that's the reason California retailers balked when given the chance to use Gilbarco Veeder-Root's system, and whether states should be encouraged to mandate pricing by amount of energy bought rather than volume of gas sold.
 

medicineman

New Member
Here's a clue, buy your gas early in the morning, or late at night. In Vegas, you should buy your gas just before sunrise as that is the coolest part of the day.
 

ViRedd

New Member
So, if a devise is installed that will regulate gas during hot weather by lowering the price of the gas, does that same devise raise the price during cold weather to compensate?

Vi
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
Yes to the real per gallon rate posted.
Gasoline can only contract so much but can expand to almost 1.5 times it's original size.
In essence when you buy gas on a hot day, 1/4 of what you are buying is air. Simple Physics Vi.
 

ViRedd

New Member
AhHa ... thanks for the explanation. So, from now on, I'll do as Med says ... buy early in the morning or late at night. I should be getting 1/4 more gas, right?

Vi
 

may

Well-Known Member
By Brian Beutler, Media Consortium. Posted August 14, 2007.

Oil companies know that gasoline expands at higher temperatures and has less volume at lower ones, but they've refused to upgrade gas stations with a simple tool that would adjust the price of gas according to its temperature.

It's probably intuitive to most people that the gasoline in their fuel tank expands in the heat -- just like doorframes and cookware and everything else on the planet. What's probably less intuitive is that, in the United States, this physical phenomenon pumps a nearly $2 billion annual windfall out of consumers' pockets and into oil company coffers, according to numerous calculations, including a recent House of Representatives study.

The North Carolina-based company Gilbarco Veeder-Root manufactures a device -- a temperature-sensitive chamber for fuel -- that, if affixed to gasoline pumps across the country, would return that money to consumers and help relieve some of our storied gas-price pressures. The device -- and others like it -- is simple, functional and, in fact, already in widespread use at gas stations all across Canada. Last month, Democratic presidential hopeful and Ohio Rep. Dennis Kucinich, chair of the Domestic Policy Subcommittee, held the second in a series of hearings to investigate why the technology has never made it into the American market.

Temperature is just one of the many variables that determine how much energy one tank of gasoline contains, and therefore how many miles it will pull your car. But the effects of temperature change are easier to calculate than, say, ethanol content or petroleum grade -- and are therefore also easy to correct for. Here's how it works.

A gallon of gasoline contains a certain number of molecules, which combust in your car's engine to provide it with energy. If you heat up that gallon of gasoline it will expand, leaving you with a larger volume of gas than the gallon with which you started. But your new volume will contain the same number of combustible molecules and therefore will provide the same amount of energy as it did prior to the heating. That means a tank full of "hot" gas will provide a car with less energy than will the same tank full of "cool" gas, which is why you've probably been advised (correctly) not to buy gasoline when it's hot outside. Simple, right?

It is if you live in Canada, at least. There, gasoline retailers install metering systems in their pumps to determine how much the fuel they sell has cooled or heated from its standardized refinery temperature, and then adjust the price accordingly. If the fuel has become warmer, it also becomes cheaper. If it has cooled, it becomes more expensive. Which is to say that Canadians -- to a greater extent than Americans -- pay for the energy they get out of the gasoline and not for the volume of liquid fuel they purchase.

Of course, on average, Canada is pretty cold and the United States is pretty hot. So it benefits both retailers and oil companies to correct for temperature in Canada, but to price by volume in the United States But the idea of correcting price for temperature has deep roots in the industry: oil companies have done so for gasoline wholesalers for nearly a century. The only ones in the North American energy chain who pay by volume rather than by energy value are U.S. consumers.

Kucinich's hearings were designed to shed light on this and other double standards. Oil company executives, testifying under threat of subpoena, told the subcommittee that gas retailers in the United States don't use heat meters -- known as "automatic temperature compensation" -- because state regs don't let them. "State weights and measures regulations have not adopted temperature correction," said Hugh Cooley, a Shell Oil Company vice president, in answer to Kucinich's inquiries. Ben Soraci, Director of General Sales for ExxonMobil, echoed Cooley, insisting that "across the U.S. a gallon is still defined as 231 cubic inches by law."

But Kucinich offered evidence to the contrary. His subcommittee asked the National Institutes of Standards and Technology to survey all 50 states and the District of Columbia about their weights and measures rules. "Most states permit the use of temperature compensation at both the wholesale and retail level," Kucinich said the survey found. "In fact, NIST could find that automatic temperature compensation is only expressly prohibited in nine states for retail."

Further, Kucinich found that Gilbarco Veeder-Root sought certification for its automatic temperature compensation equipment in California. Gilbarco was responding to what it has said was the stated interest of California gas retailers, but it found no buyers when the state gave its product the OK.

Cooley and Soraci say that's unsurprising because the cost for implementing devices like Gilbarco's, an investment estimated to be about $2,500 per unit, would be borne by retailers -- the majority of which are affiliated only loosely with big oil companies -- and then ultimately passed on to the consumer. The oil execs' contention is true as far as it goes, but belies the fact that oil companies maintain funds -- called "image" and "development" funds -- meant to help so-called arms-length retailers pay for modifications and improvements to their gas stations. The money is there to extend to consumers the same fair deal wholesalers get, but the companies don't particularly want to spend it.

Kucinich's subcommittee is now also investigating whether that's the reason California retailers balked when given the chance to use Gilbarco Veeder-Root's system, and whether states should be encouraged to mandate pricing by amount of energy bought rather than volume of gas sold.


First things you should have noted if you read this is that {1} canadas use of this {temp. comp. } divice is for the profit of { both retailers and oil companies }

{2} Gilbarco stated it was in the best interest of the retailers }.

{3} Gilbarco also stated that the ESTIMATED { this should be a red flag word for anyone} investment of the temp. comp. to be $2,500 { where I buy gas there are 16 pumps thats 40 Gs } add in down time ect. then add time for getting a loan, servicing the loan, interest and then a % added for profit on the time and money spent. Then added to the cost of your gas.

All states will need to change some things and maybe only take 1 or 2 mill. up front, some would need to to change a large chunk of their regs. on weights & measures. But all states will need to check that the divices worked properly, things like this add up and who will pay?

Noting these things one should think that it MAY not be in the best interest of the consumer.

What also should be noted is the Standardized refinery temp. is not stated and it would nice to see the rate of expansion ploted. That would be good and useable info. I don't this post to be helpfull in the understanding of this, past airing of the issue.

A refinery separates, breaks down and changes hydrocarbons, this is done mostly by distilation, heat is also used in cracking ie the breaking of a longchain into shorter parts, a catalyst also plays a large in this , although a hell of a lot more is going on. My point is heat is the main tool being used and that a refinery wanting to get the most from its product would want to set this Standardized refinery temp. as high as possable so I see the temp. to be from 70%f to 80%f or 75%f. Now in the us tanks at a retail outlet would be underground a lot cooler than any S.R.T. so the way I see it we are gitting a break at the pump.

Sounds like Kucinich is looking for oil money.

Give me a break D. D. the expansion and contraction of anything will ALWAYS be the same, they will ALWAYS be equal. very simple physics.
Your also very wrong on the amount of expansion gas would have.... not that you said anything definitive.

If you wish to buy at the best time, that would be just before they are refilled as the tanker gas will be warmer than the ground tanks. Heat wants to go up not down.
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
That is where you are wrong my friend... A lot of Gas stations especially those who are around the Ogallala Aquifer are using above ground Fuel Tanks. So there is going to be expansion and contraction. Also long before Kucinich came around it was proven that even slight temperature changes will effect volumes of gasoline... One thing you may not know about me, I have worked in the Oil industry before, both in the Drilling end of it and the refinery end of it....
Please try and explain anything about the Oil or Gasoline business to me.. I am willing to bet you know very little.

For those who don't know where the Ogallala Aquifer is:


A lot of Gas and Fuel Stations along this Aquifer are placing the tanks above ground so in case the tanks leak it doesn't get into the ground water.
 

may

Well-Known Member
That is where you are wrong my friend... A lot of Gas stations especially those who are around the Ogallala Aquifer are using above ground Fuel Tanks. So there is going to be expansion and contraction. Also long before Kucinich came around it was proven that even slight temperature changes will effect volumes of gasoline... One thing you may not know about me, I have worked in the Oil industry before, both in the Drilling end of it and the refinery end of it....
Please try and explain anything about the Oil or Gasoline business to me.. I am willing to bet you know very little.

For those who don't know where the Ogallala Aquifer is:


A lot of Gas and Fuel Stations along this Aquifer are placing the tanks above ground so in case the tanks leak it doesn't get into the ground water.

What did you do? Were you a ruffneck in the drilling end and at the refinery did what? Paint?
My point is cleaning bedpans in a hospital for a while doesn't make you into a doctor.

If you could understand what I said earlier about a refinery and understood what all I did say in a few words should give you pause.

Do you wish to debate distillation?

Cracking of hydrocarbon molecules?

The use of heat and a catalyst in the cracking?

Octane, why gas is octane rated?

What is this octane rating for?

Butane another of the 4 tanes may be of interest to some here, Tell me why are there 64 ways a butane molecule can be put togather? Tell me what is different about the way iso and n butane molecules are put togather? Tell me why this change alters the boiling point? Why is n Butane cracked to change it into iso Butane? Why is oil used to separate n Butane and why is some of this oil still in the Butane that you buy for end use?

I know all these things and a lot more.

If you wish pick something YOU DO know about and we will debate that.
but please don't tell me you slept with a dog and so you now know how to run a rabbit, use facts, understanding and thought.

Maybe 1% or less of retail outlets have above ground storage, so if it has been hot don't buy there but if it has been cold by all means buy there. The less than 2 bill. stated above averages out at $6 a year per.. very little even if it were true and I say its not as I stated above.

If you wish the most bang for your buck then don't buy gas with alcohol in it as the alcohols used have only half the energy by volume as does gas, so 10% alcohol in gas will yield 5% less energy than gas without the alcohol and that IS real money that you can save, not a way for the big oil boys to make money while getting us to foot the bill and getting us to think WE will get a return from this.
 

ozstone

Well-Known Member
And Ladies and Gentleman we have a new challenger, this should be good, I really enjoy sitting back and watching DD,MED & VI go at it, but May you raise some interesting and obviously knowledgeable insight into this debate.
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
I rough necked for 2 years and I worked in a Phillips refinery for 1 1/2 years in Skellytown Texas (which at the time was a Coking plant) then I worked at the Phillips Plant in Borger Texas for another year.

The octane rating is a measure of the autoignition resistance of gasoline and other fuels used in spark-ignition internal combustion engines. It is a measure of anti-detonation of a gasoline or fuel.

Octane number is the number which gives the percentage, by volume, of iso-octane in a mixture of iso-octane and normal heptane, that would have the same anti-knocking capacity as the fuel which is under consideration. For example, gasoline with the same knocking characteristics as a mixture of 90% iso-octane and 10% heptane would have an octane rating of 90.

Now Catalist cracking is achived by this method:

Modern cracking uses zeolites as the catalyst. These are complex aluminosilicates, and are large lattices of aluminium, silicon and oxygen atoms carrying a negative charge. They are, of course, associated with positive ions such as sodium ions. You may have come across a zeolite if you know about ion exchange resins used in water softeners.

The alkane is brought into contact with the catalyst at a temperature of about 932°F and moderately low pressures.

The zeolites used in catalytic cracking are chosen to give high percentages of hydrocarbons with between 5 and 10 carbon atoms - particularly useful for petrol (gasoline). It also produces high proportions of branched alkanes and aromatic hydrocarbons like benzene.

Thermal cracking:
In thermal cracking, high temperatures (typically in the range of 842°F to 1382°F) and pressures (up to about 70 atmospheres) are used to break the large hydrocarbons into smaller ones. Thermal cracking gives mixtures of products containing high proportions of hydrocarbons with double bonds - alkenes.
Thermal cracking doesn't go via ionic intermediates like catalytic cracking. Instead, carbon-carbon bonds are broken so that each carbon atom ends up with a single electron. In other words, free radicals are formed.

During the Refining process you will also seperate methane (1 carbon atom), ethane (2 carbon atom),propane (3 carbon atoms ), butane (4 carbon atoms), pentane (5 carbon atoms), hexane (6 carbon atoms), heptane (7 carbon atoms), octane (8 carbon atoms), nonane (9 carbon atoms), decane (10 carbon atoms).

The atoms in alkanes with more than three carbon atoms can be arranged in many ways, leading to a large number of potential different configurations (isomers). So-called "normal" alkanes have a linear, unbranched configuration, but the n- isomer of any given alkane is only one of potentially hundreds or even possibly millions of configurations for that number of carbon and hydrogen atoms in some sort of chain arrangement.

I hate to tell you this, but your not the only one here that has a bit of a background in organic chemistry. I did a lot more than turnarounds in the refinery..

Now I do not believe that we are headed the right direction when we start using Ethanol as a fuel. I believe that Biodiesel is more of a step in the right direction.
It's easy to manufacture and you bet a lot more bang for your buck with it.
 

medicineman

New Member
And Ladies and Gentleman we have a new challenger, this should be good, I really enjoy sitting back and watching DD,MED & VI go at it, but May you raise some interesting and obviously knowledgeable insight into this debate.
I could care less about the chemical make up of petrol as long as my vehicle runs ok on it. Stop with all the I'm smarter than you crap and just buy your gas early in the AM. That will allow you to get the most bang for your buck, enough said.
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
Now that I have explained certain aspects of the refining process, do we have to continue with the Big Dick Contest?
Just because I'm on a pot board does not make me a stereotypical stoner.
I went to college and actually learned things.
Schools I went to, Cal – Poly Pomona (computer Science, associates degree), UCLA (Organic Chemistry, bachelor's degree) , BYU (Medical School but ran out of money before I could archive my PhD).
Also in the Navy I went to Radio “A” School, I also taught night school (computer technology and computer design) in El Monte, California.
I just don't happen to agree with right wing politics anymore. After being a republican for 20 years, I have noticed they have walked away from their original message.

Now I view both the Republican and Democratic parties with equal disdain.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
are you a mormon dank?

well, i'm just glad the tanks here are buried under a concrete pad and the pumps are in the shade... no worries.






.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
not a cement tank or something. i mean there's a tank, some dirt, then concrete. it's cool as a cucumber down there man, pretty stable year round.






.
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
I'm thinking about taking an extension course through UC Berkley on line. They have a really nice Brewing Technology course. Being that I have been homebrewing since 1988 I think going pro would be a natural progression.
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
not a cement tank or something. i mean there's a tank, some dirt, then concrete. it's cool as a cucumber down there man, pretty stable year round.

.
Not completely correct.
The Concrete heats the soil, the soil heats the tank. It doesn't heat it to the extent that it becomes volatile. But enough that there is going to be expansion. Then you have to take into account that it picks up heat from going through the plumbing (friction) and the hose into your tank (radiant heat).
There are a lot of things that are not being taken into account here.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
i've got a watermelon that's been sitting there in my house for a couple weeks... think it's up to 80 proof yet?




.
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
No just rotton :D .... In order to make Alcohol from Sugar you need yeast..
Yes each house has wild yeast floating in the air, you would have to expose the Juices to the yeast.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
Not completely correct.
The Concrete heats the soil, the soil heats the tank. It doesn't heat it to the extent that it becomes volatile. But enough that there is going to be expansion. Then you have to take into account that it picks up heat from going through the plumbing (friction) and the hose into your tank (radiant heat).
There are a lot of things that are not being taken into account here.

enough with this Boyle's law related discussion...


if i stay in this thread any longer i'm going to actually calculate the liquid volume Delta in one degree increments and it's not going to be pretty!


:spew:






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