Why America Must Prosecute War Crimes

[GrowRebel]

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=92495§ionid=3510203Bush aware of 'unreliability' of torture info
In July 2002, the Joint Personnel Recovery Agency notified the former administration that torture yields 'unreliable information,' just weeks before the Justice Department authorized use of harsh interrogation techniques, The Washington Post reported.
"The unintended consequence of a US policy that provides for the torture of prisoners is that it could be used by our adversaries as justification for the torture of captured US personnel," the paper quoted from a document attached to a JPRA memorandum.


Here's another report ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/24/AR2009042403171.htmlIn 2002, Military Agency Warned Against 'Torture'
The military agency that provided advice on harsh interrogation techniques for use against terrorism suspects referred to the application of extreme duress as "torture" in a July 2002 document sent to the Pentagon's chief lawyer and warned that it would produce "unreliable information."


http://news.antiwar.com/2009/04/24/no-proof-torture-stopped-terror-attacks/No Proof Torture Stopped Terror Attacks
Former Vice President Dick Cheney has requested the release of two CIA reports which he claims will strengthen his assertions that the torture of detainees helped thwart terrorist plots, but already released memos from the CIA inspector general point out that there was no conclusive proof that the harsh interrogation tactics helped the Bush Administration thwart any “specific imminent attacks.”
It's pretty obvious to those with even half a brain comprehend that waterboarding is torture ... and torture doesn't work.
So keep blowing it out your ass CJ ... I got the reports to back me up ...

 

[CrackerJax]

It's just post political spin...I'm not surprised you have fallen for it, not at all.

Cheney knows exactly what he is doing and knows that the CURRENT CIA statements were JUST talking about the RELEASED memos and not the memos in their ENTIRETY. Again, I am not surprised you have fallen for the spin, most do.



out.

 

[GrowRebel]

It's just post political spin...I'm not surprised you have fallen for it, not at all.

Cheney knows exactly what he is doing and knows that the CURRENT CIA statements were JUST talking about the RELEASED memos and not the memos in their ENTIRETY. Again, I am not surprised you have fallen for the spin, most do.out.

... and pray tell what is political about the JPRA ... and the military agency? ... calling facts spin isn't going to turn it to that ... Just blowing out your ass again ... no surprises there right folks ...that's all he's got ...
blowing it out

 

[CrackerJax]

Saying you can't find concusive proof doesn't make it a fact.

Water boarding works and it works well.

out.

 

[natrone23]

Shit I think my older brother used to waterboard me Drown proof for sure

 

[GrowRebel]

Saying you can't find concusive proof doesn't make it a fact.

Water boarding works and it works well.out.

That's right ... instead of admitting you are wrong just keep looking like a complete and total ass ... it's far more fun this way ...
blowing it outkiss-ass

 

[GrowRebel]

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/4/23/723565/-What-We-Know-So-Far:-A-Torture-Timeline-%28Updated%29A Torture Timeline: What We Know So Far
So much information about the Bush administration's torture policies and rationales has surfaced in recent days that, contrary to the secrecy meme of those days, we are now in danger of suffering from TMI - too much information.
So I thought it would be helpful to put together a timeline of known facts, reports and claims to try to give some chronological perspective to it all.
It turns out there is so much information already known that just summarizing it is torture. The timeline thus focuses mainly on the torture memos themselves and the events occurring at the time they were written, tested and replaced.


Investigative report replay ...this is a pretty important investigation folks ... it show that the government is using this fake organization so they can commit war crimes with impunity ...

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fakealqaeda.html?q=fakealqaeda.htmlFake Al Qaeda

Ana raicha Al Qaeda" is colloquial for "I'm going to the toilet". A very common and widespread use of the word "Al-Qaeda" in different Arab countries in the public language is for the toilet bowl. This name comes from the Arabic verb "Qa'ada" which mean "to sit", pertinently, on the "Toilet Bowl". In most Arabs homes there are two kinds of toilets: "Al-Qaeda" also called the "Hamam Franji" or foreign toilet, and "Hamam Arabi" or "Arab toilet" which is a hole in the ground. Lest we forget it, the potty used by small children is called "Ma Qa'adia" or "Little Qaeda".
So, if you were forming a terrorist group, would you call yourself, "The Toilet"?
I bet if you had a bushwhacked mind you would ... look at all the bushwhacked people that took the bush regime at their word ... and still do ... it always amazes me how so many people keep falling for the same bullshit ... war after war ...


http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/04/waterboarding_a.htmlWaterboarding Approved Specifically To Justify Iraq War
I have just learnt something which has convinced me that Bush, Cheney and Rice are indeed evil in the sense that Hitler was evil. I did not actually believe that until today.
The excellent and much-respected Marjorie Cohn, President of the National Lawyers Guild of the USA and Professor of Law at the Thomas Jefferson School of Law, has discovered that waterboarding was first approved in July 2002 by Condoleeza Rice, specifically to force confessions of links between al-Qaida and Saddam Hussein.
This is what torture is about folks ... to get people to say the things that they want to hear ... it doesn't matter if it's true or not ...



http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/20090426_Judge_Bybee_s_cruelty__In_approving_torture__his_remoteness_from_the_actual_torturers_increases_his_degree_of_responsibility_.htmlJudge Bybee's cruelty: In approving torture, his remoteness from the actual torturers increases his degree of responsibility.
Jon B. Eisenberg is one of the lawyers representing the plaintiffs in a case challenging President George W. Bush's warrantless wiretapping
program

And she quoted from the judgment against Eichmann: "[T]he extent to which any one of the many criminals was close to or remote from the actual killer of the victim means nothing, as far as the measure of his responsibility is concerned. On the contrary, in general the degree of responsibility increases as we draw further away from the man who uses the fatal instrument with his own hands."


http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/4/24/723455/-They-Added-a-Tracheotomy-Kit-to-the-Torture-ChamberThey Added a Tracheotomy Kit to the Torture Chamber
Evaluating the new constraints placed on waterboarding in the "2005 Bradbury memo" reveals a MAJOR change. "Harmless" waterboarding now required that a physician be present in the room in which the detainee is waterboarded to prevent death. Furthermore, they now included a tracheotomy kit in the room where "harmless" waterboarding was conducted:
So as you can see from these reports folks CJ is merely blowing it out his ass ... he's got nothing other than his bushwhacked spin ... with little or nothing of value to back any of his bullshit up ...

 

[CrackerJax]

Shit I think my older brother used to waterboard me Drown proof for sure

That's exactly right. Every kid gets water boarded at some time or another. Now we give it up and are somehow supposed to get our intelligence by asking politely. So smart.....


out.

 

[GrowRebel]

That's exactly right. Every kid gets water boarded at some time or another. Now we give it up and are somehow supposed to get our intelligence by asking politely. So smart.....out.

Yeah ... if only we had your super intelligence .... NOT ....
blowing it out ...

 

[GrowRebel]

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/joan-walsh-torture-illegal-whether-it-workJoan Walsh: Torture is Illegal Whether it Works or Not
From CNN's Realiable Sources. Joan Walsh tries to get through to David Frum and Chris Cillizza that public opinion polls and whether anyone can claim that torturing prisoners "worked" or not do not matter.
WALSH: You know, I couldn't disagree more with my friend Chris. This is not a "he said/she said" situation. This is torture. Torture is illegal. We don't sit here, Howie, and say he said murder is illegal, but she said, well, sometimes murder's not so bad. These are clear matters of law.
Ronald Reagan signed the 1988 U.N. Convention Against Torture where we committed ourselves to prosecuting people who torture. It's the law. It's super clear. It's not a partisan witch hunt or a "she said/he said" situation.
So there you have it folks despite what the bushwhacked wing-nut CJ says ... torture is illegal ... case close ...


http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/real-time-bob-baer-waterboarding-its-tortureReal Time: Bob Baer on Waterboarding- It's Torture

Bob Baer, a former CIA officer visits the set of Real Time and explains why torture doesn't work and why waterboarding is torture. Baer also notes that we haven't even seen the worst of what happened because there are ninety two CIA cases that were destroyed because what was in them was so horrific.
So folks who you going to believe ... some bushwhacked nut case that blows it out his ass or someone that actually had been there ... done that ... nuff said ...

 

[PadawanBater]

Cracker, what do you define as torture?

What makes waterboarding special, why don't you consider it torture?

Would you subject yourself to waterboarding in an experiment like Hitchens did to prove your point and stand up for what you believe in?

Also, this is the most important part of this message, I'd really like an answer from you on this;

Can you explain to me why you think waterboarding, or any type of torture for that matter, would be an effective tool against an enemy combatant in obtaining RELIABLE information? Don't you think, if you were the one being tortured, that you would just give any information, true or false, to your captives to stop the pain? How can the information received from these people be considered reliable and how are we supposed to determine the accuracy and credibility of the information that is received through torture?

 

[natrone23]

Would you subject yourself to waterboarding in an experiment like Hitchens did to prove your point and stand up for what you believe in?

Is it really torture if people are volunteering for it?
Would hitch volunteer to get his fingernails pulled out?

 

[PadawanBater]

Is it really torture if people are volunteering for it?
Would hitch volunteer to get his fingernails pulled out?

You make a good point, and I thought about that too... I mean if you KNOW there's absolutely no serious risk of actually dying, or they pull that shit they did with Hitchens, I mean I still give him credit for doing that, and give em a code word and things to drop if it gets too intense... HUGE difference between that and in the field being practiced on actual suspected terrorists.

But still, I don't think that makes waterboarding any less of a type of torture... There's a lot of different aspects of it involved that a lot of people don't think about. How long was this guy awake before the waterboarding, aka sleep deprived which is also widely practiced on suspected terrorists as a 'harsh interrogation technique'. I wonder if any of them have actually died during it, I mean, do any of you seriously think they would release that information to the American public if they did?! LMAO! Cheney and Bush would definitely be at the end of a noose if that ever happened!

 

[CrackerJax]

Or perhaps another way of looking at it is why you think it is a good thing to take away one of our best methods of extraction. This only HURTS us. What image are we afraid of? By taking down the obstacles of our defense, we just appear weaker to the enemy (and we do)....why is that a good thing? As for the rest of our detractors...screw them. Europe can go pound sand for all I care. We are doing the job in their stead, so they sit there crying about us getting dirty. Who cares what they think? The U.N? Give me a break. Merely a cursory review of the UN will show it to be bereft of morality and totally corrupt, so screw them too.

How does scoring political points help keep our soldiers safe in the future? It doesn't. Trading future American lives so some politicians can look good is an abysmal way to run a Govt.

Obama has made a serious error and this one will cost him dearly.

Water boarding is not torture. There is no physical danger. The fantastic thing about water boarding is that no matter how many times it is done to you, you are fine right after and yet, one cannot stop the primal instincts that water boarding initiates....this is its effectiveness. The fact that these horrid terrorists were water boarded multiple times to no ill effect is enough for me to keep it. What's the alternative? A weaker less informed America? No thanks....seeking political victories at the cost of our national security is insane and shallow.

Think it through.....this discussion shouldn't even be taking place....



out.

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

Or perhaps another way of looking at it is why you think it is a good thing to take away one of our best methods of extraction. This only HURTS us. What image are we afraid of? By taking down the obstacles of our defense, we just appear weaker to the enemy (and we do)....why is that a good thing? As for the rest of our detractors...screw them. Europe can go pound sand for all I care. We are doing the job in their stead, so they sit there crying about us getting dirty. Who cares what they think? The U.N? Give me a break. Merely a cursory review of the UN will show it to be bereft of morality and totally corrupt, so screw them too.

How does scoring political points help keep our soldiers safe in the future? It doesn't. Trading future American lives so some politicians can look good is an abysmal way to run a Govt.

Obama has made a serious error and this one will cost him dearly.

Water boarding is not torture. There is no physical danger. The fantastic thing about water boarding is that no matter how many times it is done to you, you are fine right after and yet, one cannot stop the primal instincts that water boarding initiates....this is its effectiveness. The fact that these horrid terrorists were water boarded multiple times to no ill effect is enough for me to keep it. What's the alternative? A weaker less informed America? No thanks....seeking political victories at the cost of our national security is insane and shallow.

Think it through.....this discussion shouldn't even be taking place....



out.

The idea is to win, not to lose, especially not to lose because you tied your hands behind your back after cutting off both your legs.

 

[CrackerJax]

Oh, but that's the nail on the head here really. The lib's just can't stand it that we got into a war, let alone WON one... HORROR!! We must punish all those who brought this victorious shame upon us... holey moley...


we won...get over it.


out. :blsmoke;

 

[PadawanBater]

Or perhaps another way of looking at it is why you think it is a good thing to take away one of our best methods of extraction. This only HURTS us. What image are we afraid of? By taking down the obstacles of our defense, we just appear weaker to the enemy (and we do)....why is that a good thing? As for the rest of our detractors...screw them. Europe can go pound sand for all I care. We are doing the job in their stead, so they sit there crying about us getting dirty. Who cares what they think? The U.N? Give me a break. Merely a cursory review of the UN will show it to be bereft of morality and totally corrupt, so screw them too.

OK, well, I sort of wanted you to answer my questions, I mean I even put "this part is really important" and you still skipped it. It's important and those were legitimate questions man, I'd really like to get your opinion on what I said in the previous message, specifically.

What do YOU define as torture?

Anyway, regarding this post...

I don't think waterboarding is at all 'one of our best methods of extraction', if it was, they wouldn't need to waterboard people 83 times, 183 times, 244 times. They'd do it once, maybe twice if it was that effective. Also, if it's such an effective technique, why didn't Bush administration officials continue to use it till the very last day of the term? Why would they stop using it if it worked so well?

Using these questionable methods of interrogation HURTS US. And in the mind of some of our 'enemies' it gives their actions total justification. While here in the states they sugarcoat the fuck out of what waterboarding actually is (that question still remains unanswered on your part too CJ, would you yourself get waterboarded and prove that it's really not that bad of a tactic?) what do you think those alleged terrorists who we've waterboarded are going to tell the people back home when they get out, that it was all happy fun time at Gitmo?

Yeah, they behead people or burn them alive in the Middle East, completely insane ancient behavior for any society of today to practice, how is waterboarding any different? Torture is torture. Would you feel comfortable waterboarding a person?

Who the fuck cares how we APPEAR to the enemy, what matters is how we conduct ourselves as a nation. If anything, the enemy perceiving weakness would only be an ADVANTAGE for us. Ya know, underestimating the enemy, a mistake every commander in the field knows not to do.

...remember when Obama was in Turkey (I think it was Turkey) when he said something along the lines of how Americans are arrogant and ignorant about Europes leading role in the world, then all you guys started crying about how he was doing nothing but appoligising? Well, there ya go, you just proved him right with this statement; "As for the rest of our detractors...screw them. Europe can go pound sand for all I care. We are doing the job in their stead."

How does scoring political points help keep our soldiers safe in the future? It doesn't. Trading future American lives so some politicians can look good is an abysmal way to run a Govt.

Obama has made a serious error and this one will cost him dearly.

So by eliminating torture from our tool box of tactics used, you think this will somehow kill Americans in the future? Explain that.

Water boarding is not torture. There is no physical danger. The fantastic thing about water boarding is that no matter how many times it is done to you, you are fine right after and yet, one cannot stop the primal instincts that water boarding initiates....this is its effectiveness. The fact that these horrid terrorists were water boarded multiple times to no ill effect is enough for me to keep it. What's the alternative? A weaker less informed America? No thanks....seeking political victories at the cost of our national security is insane and shallow.

Think it through.....this discussion shouldn't even be taking place....

I'm pretty sure drowning and suffocating qualifies as 'physical danger'... Again, why would we waterboard a person hundreds of times if it's so effective at gathering reliable information? That doesn't make any sense, if it worked, we'd do it once, the reason we do it so many times is because it DOES NOT WORK, and personally, I think some of these guys get a hard on when they do this shit.

You're right, this is the same kind of shit Voltaire talked about hundreds of years ago, apparently you missed it. You're right, but for the wrong reasons.
　

Oh, but that's the nail on the head here really. The lib's just can't stand it that we got into a war, let alone WON one... HORROR!! We must punish all those who brought this victorious shame upon us... holey moley...

we won...get over it.

Dude, Cracker, how can you at all say we won this war? Especially with it still going? Wtf man, if we already won it, why would it still be going? Again, your shit doesn't make any sense... If we won, or rather, if there was anything to win, we wouldn't still be fighting.

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

OK, well, I sort of wanted you to answer my questions, I mean I even put "this part is really important" and you still skipped it. It's important and those were legitimate questions man, I'd really like to get your opinion on what I said in the previous message, specifically.

What do YOU define as torture?

Anyway, regarding this post...

I don't think waterboarding is at all 'one of our best methods of extraction', if it was, they wouldn't need to waterboard people 83 times, 183 times, 244 times. They'd do it once, maybe twice if it was that effective. Also, if it's such an effective technique, why didn't Bush administration officials continue to use it till the very last day of the term? Why would they stop using it if it worked so well?

Perhaps by "best" they mean the best method out of methods that do not involve permanent physical disfiguring.

Using these questionable methods of interrogation HURTS US.

Hurts us?

I don't believe that.

1. It doesn't make us appear weak to use torture
2. It doesn't make us appear cowardly to use torture
3. Accusations of it making us appear "uncivilized" fail to account for the fact that War is not supposed to be civilized. Liberals who think that war needs be some how "civilized" haven't the foggiest idea about fighting.

One can only wonder what's next, are you going to insist that there be no bullets in our weapons when we fight because they might hurt some one?

4. European Opinion (or the Media's Opinion) - Who really cares? We are not Europe, nor are we beholden to them.

And in the mind of some of our 'enemies' it gives their actions total justification. While here in the states they sugarcoat the fuck out of what waterboarding actually is (that question still remains unanswered on your part too CJ, would you yourself get waterboarded and prove that it's really not that bad of a tactic?)

I'd be willing to volunteer.

what do you think those alleged terrorists who we've waterboarded are going to tell the people back home when they get out, that it was all happy fun time at Gitmo?

Which is why the terrorists are complaining about the "Gitmo 20", that bit of extra weight they've gained while sleeping under their 800 thread-count sheets.

Yeah, they behead people or burn them alive in the Middle East, completely insane ancient behavior for any society of today to practice, how is waterboarding any different? Torture is torture. Would you feel comfortable waterboarding a person?

I don't know, I've never been asked to do so.

Who the fuck cares how we APPEAR to the enemy, what matters is how we conduct ourselves as a nation. If anything, the enemy perceiving weakness would only be an ADVANTAGE for us. Ya know, underestimating the enemy, a mistake every commander in the field knows not to do.

The idea is to win. Win first, worry about moral qualms second. Of course, to win it'd probably be advisable to let the Generals and the Military decided how to win, what needs to be done to win. I seriously doubt that the pansy from, what was it, Vogue? Hardly a source to use when discussing military tactics.

The key word their of course is military tactics.

Which would indicate understanding military history, tactics, strategy and intelligence gathering.

...remember when Obama was in Turkey (I think it was Turkey) when he said something along the lines of how Americans are arrogant and ignorant about Europes leading role in the world, then all you guys started crying about how he was doing nothing but appoligising? Well, there ya go, you just proved him right with this statement; "As for the rest of our detractors...screw them. Europe can go pound sand for all I care. We are doing the job in their stead."

Europe can go pound sand. Twice we've had to save the Frogs and the Limies from the Krauts. The British should take a good luck in the mirror and repeat this about 1,000,000 times, "We are Wogs, wogs we are."

So by eliminating torture from our tool box of tactics used, you think this will somehow kill Americans in the future? Explain that.

Does it matter?

I'm pretty sure drowning and suffocating qualifies as 'physical danger'... Again, why would we waterboard a person hundreds of times if it's so effective at gathering reliable information? That doesn't make any sense, if it worked, we'd do it once, the reason we do it so many times is because it DOES NOT WORK, and personally, I think some of these guys get a hard on when they do this shit.

It's not drowning, it gives the appearance of drowning, and I think I already countered your sally about the times it has to be used.

You're right, this is the same kind of shit Voltaire talked about hundreds of years ago, apparently you missed it. You're right, but for the wrong reasons.

I really doubt that Voltaire had any personal knowlege of the Spanish Inquisition.

Dude, Cracker, how can you at all say we won this war? Especially with it still going? Wtf man, if we already won it, why would it still be going? Again, your shit doesn't make any sense... If we won, or rather, if there was anything to win, we wouldn't still be fighting.

We have already won. There is no longer a autonomous territory of Iraq. There is no longer a coherent military in Iraq.

The problem remains however that there is (unsurprisingly) some people that are not happy about having foreign soldiers in their territory.

Perhaps you should consider the case of Belgium during World War II.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_SS_Volunteer_Sturmbrigade_Wallonien

It was the only conquered territory to volunteer so many soldiers that it had its own SS Division.

It was also one of the most resistent to the Germans.

The attacks of Partians and Guerillas means little by itself, as it can be expected that some people will refuse to bow down to foreign kings when invaded and conquered, while others will collaborate.

 

[medicineman]

Quote:
And in the mind of some of our 'enemies' it gives their actions total justification. While here in the states they sugarcoat the fuck out of what waterboarding actually is (that question still remains unanswered on your part too CJ, would you yourself get waterboarded and prove that it's really not that bad of a tactic?)
I'd be willing to volunteer. (Says TBT)
Yeah right, fucking cheap ass talk. I'd sure as hell volunteer to waterboard any one of your stupid fucking asses. This "torture" can absolutely precipitate a heart attack and kill your asses dead as doornails. Big brave talk, dorkwad.

 

[CrackerJax]

how does volunteering to be water boarded make it a 'not so bad a tactic". It would be the opposite...my AVERSION to be water boarded makes it a good tactic. Water boarding is very effective at breaking the mind down, and that's the crux of the bisquit in intel gathering. they aren't doing these tactics to Joe Camel driver. No, they are specifically targeting terrorists who know things. That gets around and is also an effective deterrent. I'll bet most of the info that was gathered did not become forthcoming durng the water boarding....but before the event. At some point, the terrorist just can't take any more and spills the beans. Once you are in it, you'll probably make it through without telling. It'll be the next moring right before sission 56 or something... Very effective.... It was good enough for Nancy Pelosi in 2002 and it should be good enough now.


out.