400 vs 600 vs 1000 hid

Boulderheads

Boulderheads

Well-Known Member
I just realized you said "lux" was a different story...so I apologize for denying your claim. Can you clarify why lotsa growers say lumens are irrelevant for growing plants? I have heard it is because the plants don't see the lumens the same way we do. And if this is the truth why are we all caught up on how many lumens we produce? Thanks for your input, I am sure many others could benefit from this knowledge as much as I can.
 
TeaTreeOil

TeaTreeOil

Well-Known Member
Boulderheads said:
I just realized you said "lux" was a different story...so I apologize for denying your claim. Can you clarify why lotsa growers say lumens are irrelevant for growing plants? I have heard it is because the plants don't see the lumens the same way we do. And if this is the truth why are we all caught up on how many lumens we produce? Thanks for your input, I am sure many others could benefit from this knowledge as much as I can.
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Sure: https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/221347-why-lumen-output-matters-less.html

He's measuring the bulb, apparently. Instead he should try measuring 1 foot away, or something more substantial, and then measuring the flux more so than the bulb, Lux does have an cumulative effect, but it's not going to be brighter than the bulb itself! :lol:

A good reflector increases lux, so do extra bulbs. It's not additive as in addition, the math is more complex(inverse square decay is a bitch!). But total lumens is total lumens.
 
Boulderheads

Boulderheads

Well-Known Member
Checked out some of the links on that thread you posted. Good info in there, very helpful and useful. I see now that most of us growers out there really don't have much of a clue when it comes to artificial lighting. Thanks for correcting me, I thought I knew what I was talking about...and apparently had no idea. Somtiemes you just have to open your mouth though and let people shut you up to actually learn something. Thanks again for all the great info bro. Your a class act.
 
D

dbo24242

New Member
aha yea lumens is pretty arbitrary. I don't have links to back this up, just a lowly physics major.

intensity wins (luminance, lux, luminous flux, or 'concentration').

it compounds similarly to a gravitational field in a solar system, the ripples in a pond, or the speaker cabs in a concert hall. these all act similarly in terms of compounding values.

while dude said that "sound requires a medium" so it does not compound, the 'filling' of the space aspect of it will give your ears an apparently 'more intense' sound, so the analogy does work. 1 speaker won't fill a concert hall like 20 will. and 20 will be way louder.

same with a string or a ripple, you collide two waves with equal amplitudes (displacements) traveling in opposite directions, they will combine to make one 2x as powerful.

with light it is in terms of rays (also waves) and you will get more light rays per AREA.

lumens mean diddly squat, they are just a way of standardizing and marketing equipment. the most important measurements for indoor grow lighting are CRI (color rating index), which is the analysis of the light spectrum in comparison to the sun, and the wattage of the bulb.
 
Boulderheads

Boulderheads

Well-Known Member
Great follow up DBO. I am finding out that you really have to do your homework and try to understand how light works and how plants recieve light in order to make an educated decision about this subject. Thanks for all the great info.
 
broham 10

broham 10

Member
dude if your plants are thriving then keep what u have. only you know what will work with your op and set up and plants. if its doing good the keeep on keeping on bro
 
TeaTreeOil

TeaTreeOil

Well-Known Member
Color rendering/rendition index doesn't mean much for plants. You could 'knock out' the sun's entire spectrum from 500-600nm and grow plants just as well(making CRI drop significantly). Case in point: HPS, very low CRI(around 22), flowers plants very nicely. Gro Lux(one of the best, based on the spectrum of light produced, Phillips PL/AQ bulbs don't have as much red, nor is it in the ideal location 660-700nm like a Gro Lux) and other plant specialty bulbs also have a lower CRI(89 or so compared with some fluoros that are in the high 90's) than the best CRI fluorescents. Also many halogens have 100 CRI, not the best for plants, though(lower efficiency).

Then again MH CRI ranges from 70's to 90's, all of which grow plants nicely, but the lower CRI bulbs probably do it better, as they have more intense spikes in the right locations, meaning more watts of radiance will be utilized for photosynthesis, and less watts for radiance which will not promote photosynthesis. The most important measurement is the only measurement that matters, the photosynthetic photon flux, micromols, microeinsteins, however you want to label the term used to measure the actual radiance in the correct wavelengths which support photosynthesis.
 
Boulderheads

Boulderheads

Well-Known Member
Awesome post bro. So we should start nagging lighting manufacturers to start producing bulbs than only put off light in those specific wavelengths? Isn't this what LED hopes to accomplish? Either way, you are a lighting connoisseur.
 
trayne

trayne

Active Member
Wow this convo really took off that makes me really happy. But teatree I am havin trouble followin your posts. I understand some of the points but defintaly not the details. I would like to learn more. So I can understand like you. Where did you learn? Thanks a lot of all the imput guys
 
jberry

jberry

Well-Known Member
the more light you have the better. you cant have too much, i dont believe that bs.

slam those 1000's together! if you cool the hell out of your reflectors than you can get them pretty close without causing damage mine are usualy about 15-23 inches away depending on how hot my system running.

even with 1000 watt digies slamed together at 15 inches away, im probably still not even comming close to what the sun would be putting off on a hot sunny day.
 
trayne

trayne

Active Member
yea im not sure if you can have too much light indoors. because your absolutley right. i read it was 32000 to 130000 lumens in inderect light from the sun. meaning through clouds or overcast n such. now thats a lot. and its indirect. and a 1000 is only like 145000
 
S

Sativa Hybrid

Member
Earl, that first chart of yours has some bad math in it.


I am going to have to go with the people that believe you can have too much light. FYI 600w i a 2'x2' cabinet is "too much".
 
trayne

trayne

Active Member
yea that girl heat is a bitch to manage. always goin around fucken people just tryin to get some troll in their system! the light aint no problem. the heat is what fucks you. they have water cooled lights now too. n those work even better then vented. now you can have even bigger lights in smaller places closer to the plants .
 
tat2ue

tat2ue

Well-Known Member
trayne said:
Ive read a lot of threads that a lot of people went ahead and bought 600's and now they wish they would have bought 1000. But I feel like I need two lights. I have my plants in a 6FT by 3 FT formation. And I want one light over each 3 by 3. I feel like itd be way better with two rather then one in the center. At the moment I have two 400's doib that. But later on I think I might upgrade I just can't figure out to what? 600 or 1000
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Curious myself to the point that I am changing out two of my 1000w HPS which hang over one of my 3 x 8 SOG tables and replacing them with three 600w Quantum digi ballast. The other table of the same size will remain lit up with 1000w ballast.
 
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