Why is everyone so afraid of the word Socialism?

[TheBrutalTruth]

In economics 'greed' is the term that is used to talk about how people work harder when they have the most to benefit, or lose (which is really the same thing).

That is a big reason why socialism fails, is lack of the economic greed. If people have nothing to benefit by working harder they do just enough to not get in trouble. Because getting in trouble is the only real motivation.

But it is a double edged sword, greed while it is good, ends up usually going too far and ends up with breaking what should be laws and screwing people.

Same with social welfare programs. They are good because it helps the motivated people that want to work themselves out of the situation they are in the ability to, they greedily use everything at their disposal to get ahead. But at the same time you have people that use the system just enough to not get in trouble.

The Free Rider problem, unfortunately taxing those that work for the benefit of those that don't encourages sloth and more free riders. It does not actually solve the problem it is attempting to solve but instead perpetuates it.

Besides, it is immoral for one generation to incur debts that future generations have to pay off.

 

[jrh72582]

Two very different types of greed.

The first, the one rooted in industriousness, ingenuity and a desire for continuous self-improvement or Kaizen (to use the Japanese word for it) is good and has delivered incalculable benefit to humanity.

The other kind, the one rooted in envy, jealousy and the desire to force others down to the same level of misery as one's self, is not good, and has never delivered any benefit to humanity.

I was referring to the latter - you the former. I wasn't aware you were working with this distinction.

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

I was referring to the latter - you the former. I wasn't aware you were working with this distinction.

Well it was brought to my attention that there apparently is this kind of distinction. Normally I would refer to the former, as just industriousness, ingenuity and Kaizen. The latter is just greed.

Can greed hide behind the former, of course, but if a person is providing goods and services for others then is it really greed? Greed is the desire to have what one does not earn. If people are willing to pay $4 for gas then is it greed that drives the Oil producing nations, and the refiners, and the commodities brokers and traders, or just the market directing their actions?

If the producers bump up prices then it follows that a sound businessman is going to be forced to bump up their prices. If the market bids prices up then the refiners have no choice but to bump up their own prices to remain in business.

Greed, is such a elusive term when it comes to pinning it down, like an eel.

It is hard to determine whether what form of greed drives individuals...

Of course, people aren't really willing to pay $4/gallon and thus the oil shock that sparked this crisis...

Funny coincidence that, but I don't think it was any more than a coincidence such as a stray breeze blowing into a house of cards and removing one vital to the structure. Pyramiding debt is yet another house of cards, and the only way to solidify it is to get rid of the debt and replace it with completely owned assets.

A Mortgage is nothing more than a disguised form of Rent... Better to save up and purchase the house outright than to pay the bankers their compounding interest rents.

 

[jrh72582]

Well it was brought to my attention that there apparently is this kind of distinction. Normally I would refer to the former, as just industriousness, ingenuity and Kaizen. The latter is just greed.

Can greed hide behind the former, of course, but if a person is providing goods and services for others then is it really greed? Greed is the desire to have what one does not earn. If people are willing to pay $4 for gas then is it greed that drives the Oil producing nations, and the refiners, and the commodities brokers and traders, or just the market directing their actions?

If the producers bump up prices then it follows that a sound businessman is going to be forced to bump up their prices. If the market bids prices up then the refiners have no choice but to bump up their own prices to remain in business.

Greed, is such a elusive term when it comes to pinning it down, like an eel.

It is hard to determine whether what form of greed drives individuals...

Of course, people aren't really willing to pay $4/gallon and thus the oil shock that sparked this crisis...

Funny coincidence that, but I don't think it was any more than a coincidence such as a stray breeze blowing into a house of cards and removing one vital to the structure. Pyramiding debt is yet another house of cards, and the only way to solidify it is to get rid of the debt and replace it with completely owned assets.

A Mortgage is nothing more than a disguised form of Rent... Better to save up and purchase the house outright than to pay the bankers their compounding interest rents.

Ideally, yes. But who has an extra $130,000 (the median price for a home in the US) laying around? That's a lot of dough.

However, we're in complete agreement about slavery through debt. I however, blame greed and capitalism for this unfair structure raping the majority of us. We have a system designed to keep people in debt and it's atrociously unjust. The rich surely devised a hell of a scheme. It's an endless cycle and it makes them a LOT of money. Remember, a long time ago in Europe, it was ILLEGAL to charge interest for borrowed money. Now it's standard practice. The only way to better oneself through education requires the accumulation of debt. The only way to own a home - debt. We're born into debt and we die in debt (usually). It's sickening. All the product of unchecked, unregulated capitalism, which itself survives on the impetus of greed.

That's how I see it.

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

Ideally, yes. But who has an extra $130,000 (the median price for a home in the US) laying around? That's a lot of dough.

However, we're in complete agreement about slavery through debt. I however, blame greed and capitalism for this unfair structure raping the majority of us. We have a system designed to keep people in debt and it's atrociously unjust. The rich surely devised a hell of a scheme. It's an endless cycle and it makes them a LOT of money. Remember, a long time ago in Europe, it was ILLEGAL to charge interest for borrowed money. Now it's standard practice. The only way to better oneself through education requires the accumulation of debt. The only way to own a home - debt. We're born into debt and we die in debt (usually). It's sickening. All the product of unchecked, unregulated capitalism, which itself survives on the impetus of greed.

That's how I see it.

Bankers incur risk by lending money, it was the recognition of this fact that lead to the permission for them to charge interest. With out interest the wheels of credit are not greased, and it leaves the bankers vulnerable to people taking their money and openly laughing.

Interest motivates people to pay off the banks quickly and thus keep the circulation of credit alive. Excessive interest rates (usury) on the other hand, I can agree is a deplorable practice, but I fail to see the need for regulation of it. A person that borrows from a payday lender should fully understand the risks.

On that regard, I believe that payday lenders should be required to report the status of payments so that people can build up there credit score and find less onerous sources of credit. Let the success of payday lenders lead to the elimination of their need... or at least let them help redistribute demand.

There is justification for the existence of payday lenders, and that justification is that they provide loans where banks fear to tred.

 

[jrh72582]

Bankers incur risk by lending money, it was the recognition of this fact that lead to the permission for them to charge interest. With out interest the wheels of credit are not greased, and it leaves the bankers vulnerable to people taking their money and openly laughing.

Interest motivates people to pay off the banks quickly and thus keep the circulation of credit alive. Excessive interest rates (usury) on the other hand, I can agree is a deplorable practice, but I fail to see the need for regulation of it. A person that borrows from a payday lender should fully understand the risks.

On that regard, I believe that payday lenders should be required to report the status of payments so that people can build up there credit score and find less onerous sources of credit. Let the success of payday lenders lead to the elimination of their need... or at least let them help redistribute demand.

There is justification for the existence of payday lenders, and that justification is that they provide loans where banks fear to tred.

The people just voted payday lenders out of the state in which I now reside. Or maybe they voted for heavy regulation of them, but I don't see them anymore. Either way, people talk about enslavement all the time on here and usually equate it to taxation, but in my humble opinion, the true slavery is guaranteeing the DEBT of anyone trying to better themselves. The average debt of college graduates is $40,000! That's slavery!

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

The people just voted payday lenders out of the state in which I now reside. Or maybe they voted for heavy regulation of them, but I don't see them anymore. Either way, people talk about enslavement all the time on here and usually equate it to taxation, but in my humble opinion, the true slavery is guaranteeing the DEBT of anyone trying to better themselves. The average debt of college graduates is $40,000! That's slavery!

No wonder why the quality of American Engineering is so low, the people going to college are imbeciles.

 

[jrh72582]

No wonder why the quality of American Engineering is so low, the people going to college are imbeciles.

Sometimes, yes. A college degree is the equivalent of a high school diploma anymore. And colleges are big business.

 

[CrackerJax]

Government will do the same thing to health care that is has already done to education. Install a failed system and then defend it to the death.

 

[hanimmal]

No wonder why the quality of American Engineering is so low, the people going to college are imbeciles.

I was happily reading the posts dealing with a good discussion, then I came to this.

Even with the crazy expensive costs of going to college, and the 5.5% interest on loans (Deferred until 6 months after you leave school, allowing you to find a job and start paying), a specialized college education is well worth it. Hands down nothing will return an investment like a good education.

Now if you blow 40k and end up a few credits short of a degree, then yes it is a colossal waste.

The Free Rider problem, unfortunately taxing those that work for the benefit of those that don't encourages sloth and more free riders. It does not actually solve the problem it is attempting to solve but instead perpetuates it.

And to add to this, it goes both ways. If the things that the government takes care of today was left up to the free market, the free rider issue crops back up. There would be many private companies (and people) that would use the systems that the greater society worked to put together to operate more efficiently without paying into them.

Besides, it is immoral for one generation to incur debts that future generations have to pay off.

Isn't this how it has always worked? People used to have lots of kids so that they could take care of them when they got old even if a few died while growing up.

I feel that everything we have (Everything, water, roads, schools, technologies) is the product of the hard work of the generations before us. And now that we are in the working class we are doing our part for the future generations, while making sure that the past workers are not left in the cold for all the work they let us benefit from.

If when we died we 'took it with us' and they didn't pay for our education, then I would be all about tossing them out with the trash, but that is not the case. So I don't mind.

 

[CrackerJax]

Han, nothing attracts corruption and free loaders like a govt. program. The private sector is ALWAYS more efficient since it has checks and balances it must meet. the govt. has no checks and balances. My mistake, it does have checks. When it blows it's budget out, it merely writes more checks....with your money.

Why don't ppl understand this very simple fact?

 

[hanimmal]

You say something that is true, then turn around and just make shit up.

The government is set up so that the people are the checks and balances. It is called voting.

It is not a fault of the founders that we are too stupid to elect people that know what they are doing and instead just continue to hire lawyers.

The private sector is much better at finding efficiencies. But what you stop short of understanding, is that through that they also are the first to screw the people that they are serving in an effort to maximize profits.

And efficiencies do not always mean better. It is much more efficient to put a bullet in the back of the head of someone that is not likely to survive, or a child that is not going to be healthy, but it is not better.

 

[CrackerJax]

Oh my.....

Voting is not a check nor a balance on a passed piece of legislation. Once enacted, just try and get rid of it. You are confused.......

 

[hanimmal]

Oh my.....

Voting is not a check nor a balance on a passed piece of legislation. Once enacted, just try and get rid of it. You are confused.......

No confusion here, the people we vote for vote for those bills. So if we had different people in they would not vote the same way.

That is a check and balance.

 

[CrackerJax]

I can see where your problems of comprehension lie........ hooboy!

Equating the checks and balances of running a corporation to voting... is ... Lawdy.......amazingly uninformed. You are all over the place like a kid with his first bowl of cereal.

 

[hanimmal]

Did you ever get those 'facts' you said that you were going to, or did you decide to just use your imagination again?

 

[CrackerJax]

Well, let's start with the big picture....


As a country we are 11.7 Trillion dollars in debt. This is not a mythical figure but a reality which will come due at some point.

As of this date today (about 6 months), our Obama Govt. has spent 2.44 Trillion dollars. That's a boat load of money.

Tax revenue as of this date is 1.2 Trillion dollars.

This leaves 1.15 Trillion dollars unaccounted for. As of just today that is, Obama isn't done yet.

Someone has to pay that bill of 1.15 Trillion dollars.

This does not count health care by the way which would increase all the numbers substantially.

This does not take into account that several GIANT Govt. funded programs are at the tipping point of financial disaster and ALL will need to be.... HUH?..... bailed out. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, all sinking fast in a sea of debt. How can this be? But Obama PROMISES the National Health Care will pay for itself.

Just how naive are you is the only question left.

 

[Green Cross]

If you think Communism is the answer, you should go live in russia or china for a while to see what it's like.

Communism already failed, there's no reason to try it here, especially after so many gave their lives to defeate it.

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

I was happily reading the posts dealing with a good discussion, then I came to this.

Even with the crazy expensive costs of going to college, and the 5.5% interest on loans (Deferred until 6 months after you leave school, allowing you to find a job and start paying), a specialized college education is well worth it. Hands down nothing will return an investment like a good education.

Now if you blow 40k and end up a few credits short of a degree, then yes it is a colossal waste.



And to add to this, it goes both ways. If the things that the government takes care of today was left up to the free market, the free rider issue crops back up. There would be many private companies (and people) that would use the systems that the greater society worked to put together to operate more efficiently without paying into them.



Isn't this how it has always worked? People used to have lots of kids so that they could take care of them when they got old even if a few died while growing up.

I feel that everything we have (Everything, water, roads, schools, technologies) is the product of the hard work of the generations before us. And now that we are in the working class we are doing our part for the future generations, while making sure that the past workers are not left in the cold for all the work they let us benefit from.

If when we died we 'took it with us' and they didn't pay for our education, then I would be all about tossing them out with the trash, but that is not the case. So I don't mind.

But we aren't. Do you really think that there is any thought to future generations in this?

There isn't, it is all a matter of people wanting to preserve their own skins.

There is no thought to the fact that it is quite possible that future generations should not be enslaved by the debts we incur. It is all about the benefit of the current generation.

While I can agree that we build up upon the knowledge and infrastructure of past generations, I can not agree that it gave them a right to enslave us through debt, or for us to enslave the next generation through the same. It is an argument that is not logical. If we lived with in our means and paid off the debt we would have more and the future generations would have more. If we must have that evil known as a state, then at least let it be responsible, instead of irresponsible.

This absurd pyramiding of debt is going to one day crush the Republic.

 

[hanimmal]

They are not forced into this debt just like you are not, just like I am not.

If I have a problem with this, I can simply move away from it. I can go anywhere or even live off of the black market and not have to pay anything.

The big thing to understand is that we make more money as a product of all the 'debt' we are enslaved with. So in reality it is simply that you would not make as much without the structures in place, which you look at as slavery, and I look at as opportunity.