Not a right

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
Not a right By : TheBrutalTruth (2009-08-20 15:06:07)
There is much propaganda coming from the disillusioned leftists stating that healthcare is a right, but an examination of healthcare as a right reveals that to argue that it is a right is to argue for a falsehood, and to argue for a system of slavery. It also fails to compare to the historic rights enshrined in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence.


Amongst the rights enshrined in the latter document (Declaration) are the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. An examination of these rights reveal that these are rights that do not rely upon the enslavement of any one to secure. In the case of a right to life, it is by the nature of breathing, eating and drinking that man maintains his life, and thus there is no need for outside parties to be enslaved to secure this right.

The right to liberty, or freedom, relies upon the exact opposite of slavery. That is, a man must be free from being enslaved by others, whether through being coerced into doing manual labor that he is not paid for, except in room and board, or through the immoral system of taxation that resembles the enslavement of man under the socialist income tax. The latter is like the first in that man is not truly emancipated, but is enslaved, because the product of his labor is stolen from him with out him being able to get any enjoyment out of it.

The pursuit of happiness when combined with the latter two is merely the guarantee that man will be allowed to choose his own career paths, and that he will not be forced to make choices that infringe upon his free will, and his own personal desires.

The first document mentioned, the Constitution, enshrines additional rights. These are the freedom of speech, or of expression, and this is another right that does not require the enslavement of others to be achieved. A man need not be told that he can speak in order to be able to speak. It is by the nature of man's anatomy that we are all born with the freedom of speech. The Constitution merely prohibits the federal government (and state governments) from infringing upon this right.

Next is the freedom of assembly, which is merely a stylized way of saying that man should be free to choose his friends, and gather in business establishments such as bars, restaurants, and in public locations such as squares and fields to talk with them freely. Once again, this right is created not by government intervention, but by the development of man as a social animal. Regardless of what government does or does not do we will all seek friends to associate with and gather in bars, restaurants, churches, fields and squares to meet them and assemble with them, and thus the government was prohibited from infringing upon this right.

These five examples would indicate that the rights that the founders guaranteed us are rights that we would have as human beings with out having to enslave others. The "right" to medical care being pushed by statist propagandists is not a right in the mold of above.

First and foremost it relies upon the forced labor of others (doctors and other medical practitioners) to achieve it. The government has even stated that it is going to enslave the medical practitioners by dictating how much they are compensated for their work and thus depriving them of their freedom to pursue happiness. This demonstrates that this so called freedom relies upon depriving others of their natural rights, and thus can not be categorized as a freedom, except perhaps as a freedom to enslave others. As such it needs to be rejected out of hand as not being a true freedom, but an excuse for reviving that dread practice of slavery, a practice that was partially revived by the imbecilic progressive income tax so loved by equally imbecilic statists and imbecilic socialists.

A further comparison of the rights enshrined in the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence would reveal that all of those rights rely upon restricting the activities of other men to infringe upon the rights of life, liberty, property and pursuit of happiness. Thus it can be asserted that the "right" to healthcare is a false right, and a lie. No one has this mythical right, because it is not a right. Healthcare is a commodity, unlike life and liberty which are inherent in man by virtue of his birth. It is also not a right like pursuit of happiness, which does not state that man has the right to enslave others in the pursuit of his happiness. The additional rights, right to bear arms, right to confront one's accusers, right to a fair and speedy trial, are all restrictions on the state meant to guarantee man's freedom, not to grant him a license to enslave others for his benefit. The arguments made by the left on this are clearly the arguments of immature imbeciles who have no concept of what a right is, and what a right is not. To be less polite, their arguments are the arguments of slavers and tyrants.

Sic Semper Tyrannis
 

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
Your argument falls apart if definitions and paradigms are other than what your premises so loftily assume.

You define 'rights' as dictated by an ancient document. My definition of 'rights' are bestowed by something much greater (and I'm not talking religion).

Your definition of freedom is broad and completely unrefined.

And the denotation you assign to the word 'slavery' is so ambiguous and open that almost act which affects another can be called slavery.

However, your rhetorical skill are evident. Your words are hollow and amateur, but you clearly understand the structure and tone necessary for proper rhetoric and treatise. Now just tighten it up - clarity and economy.
 

mrmadcow

Well-Known Member
Your argument falls apart if definitions and paradigms are other than what your premises so loftily assume.
so you want to make up new meanings to the words? war is peace.slavery is freedom.
dont understand? read 1984

You define 'rights' as dictated by an ancient document. My definition of 'rights' are bestowed by something much greater (and I'm not talking religion).
neither the Constitution nor the Declaration of Independence granted any rights.our founders understood that rights are granted by GOD and governments are instituted to protect our rights.remember if government grants you a right,government can take it away.

BTW,the author's definition of freedom "is broad and completely unrefined" as it should be
 

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
so you want to make up new meanings to the words? war is peace.slavery is freedom.
dont understand? read 1984

neither the Constitution nor the Declaration of Independence granted any rights.our founders understood that rights are granted by GOD and governments are instituted to protect our rights.remember if government grants you a right,government can take it away.

BTW,the author's definition of freedom "is broad and completely unrefined" as it should be
Thanks for your opinion. I respectfully disagree.

I personally subscribe to a transcendental ethic, NOT utilitarian. And this deontology just doesn't cut it anymore. However, your opinion is respected.
 

Parker

Well-Known Member
Thanks for your opinion. I respectfully disagree.

I personally subscribe to a transcendental ethic, NOT utilitarian. And this deontology just doesn't cut it anymore. However, your opinion is respected.
Doesn't cut it anymore???? Based on what?
 

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
Doesn't cut it anymore???? Based on what?
Deontology presumes that people will never treat other people as a means to an end. Rather, the ideal is to treat all people as ends. We have a government whose modus operandi is to treat people as a means to an end and therefore antithetical to deontology. They have killed any chance of working with deontologic ethics. It sucks, but unfortunately, it's reality.
 
I

Illegal Smile

Guest
The concept of rights beyond the law is pretty vague. There is certainly no general right in the law to anything as broad as healthcare. There may be laws saying hospitals can't turn you away.
 

mrmadcow

Well-Known Member
Deontology presumes that people will never treat other people as a means to an end.......... They have killed any chance of working with deontologic ethics. It sucks, but unfortunately, it's reality.
OK Im stoned but could you explain this again or post a link? no offence but it sounds like a utopian dream that doesn't take the worst parts of human nature into account.
 

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
OK Im stoned but could you explain this again or post a link? no offence but it sounds like a utopian dream that doesn't take the worst parts of human nature into account.
No, it's simply philosophical jargon. I apologize.
 

ink the world

Well-Known Member
Yup, its not a right...

Neither is someones personal safety...for example if my kid needs urgent medical medical care and I cant afford it you think im gonna let him die?
Nope.
Ill do whatever i have to do to pay for his care including stealing your car, breaking into your home, sticking a gun in your wifes mouth during a mugging etc. etc.
If it comes down to you and my kid, you lose.

Just hope you have good health insurance if that scenario ever plays out, because remember health care isnt a right.
THAT is the brutal truth.
 
I can't even believe so much that these discussions take place. To put the idea of someones health and well being into political terms of "right" is absurd! Just think, what if your kids, mother, wife, husband, YOURSELF ever got seriously ill and needed medical help and you don't have health insurance. Should you die?! How anti-humanity. "Healthcare" isn't a political issue. Its a HUMAN issue. Us HUMANS should have the "right" to not to die on the streets. This stance goes for most of capitalism though. In order to really see this issue as a political issue is very disconnecting from the human aspect of it. First you have to know what capitalism is about to see through this. Next, you have to be a very big proponent of capitalism to see it as strictly political, with no real living, breathing, dying humans involved. Capitalism isn't about humans, its about MONEY. This debate about "healthcare" isn't about humans either, its about MONEY. Get money outta your head, it is an abstract concept.

If you don't believe that every single person in the entire world has the "right" to be healthy and not die a horrible death or get caught up in never-ending debt over a life saving heart transplant, then you truly a capitalist and are truly wearing rosey red glasses. When real issues like this becoming political (from both sides) then it is already lost. But since capitalism demands individualist ideas its no surprise that people actually get into debates like this. You aren't supposed to care about the 70-year-old widow that is being evicted from her apartment across the street from you because she can't afford her rent. Where is she going to live? How is she going to get food? heat? WHO CARES!!!! It ain't MY problem!!!!! RIGHT!? They only want you to care about yourself and FUCK everyone else....

I can bring this on a long tyrad about abortion too now, but I'll leave that for another post! haha
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Yup, its not a right...

Neither is someones personal safety...for example if my kid needs urgent medical medical care and I cant afford it you think im gonna let him die?
Nope.
Ill do whatever i have to do to pay for his care including stealing your car, breaking into your home, sticking a gun in your wifes mouth during a mugging etc. etc.
If it comes down to you and my kid, you lose.

Just hope you have good health insurance if that scenario ever plays out, because remember health care isnt a right.
THAT is the brutal truth.
While your love for your child is admirable, taking from another or harming somebody who has never harmed you is not exactly setting the best example is it?
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I can't even believe so much that these discussions take place. To put the idea of someones health and well being into political terms of "right" is absurd! Just think, what if your kids, mother, wife, husband, YOURSELF ever got seriously ill and needed medical help and you don't have health insurance. Should you die?! How anti-humanity. "Healthcare" isn't a political issue. Its a HUMAN issue. Us HUMANS should have the "right" to not to die on the streets. This stance goes for most of capitalism though. In order to really see this issue as a political issue is very disconnecting from the human aspect of it. First you have to know what capitalism is about to see through this. Next, you have to be a very big proponent of capitalism to see it as strictly political, with no real living, breathing, dying humans involved. Capitalism isn't about humans, its about MONEY. This debate about "healthcare" isn't about humans either, its about MONEY. Get money outta your head, it is an abstract concept.

If you don't believe that every single person in the entire world has the "right" to be healthy and not die a horrible death or get caught up in never-ending debt over a life saving heart transplant, then you truly a capitalist and are truly wearing rosey red glasses. When real issues like this becoming political (from both sides) then it is already lost. But since capitalism demands individualist ideas its no surprise that people actually get into debates like this. You aren't supposed to care about the 70-year-old widow that is being evicted from her apartment across the street from you because she can't afford her rent. Where is she going to live? How is she going to get food? heat? WHO CARES!!!! It ain't MY problem!!!!! RIGHT!? They only want you to care about yourself and FUCK everyone else....

I can bring this on a long tyrad about abortion too now, but I'll leave that for another post! haha
The debate is about using force to make another comply with your wishes.

If you wish to help every 70 year old about to be evicted, that is noble. If you advocate using force to make somebody join you that is not so noble.

If my kid, mother, loved ones etc. get sick it's not YOUR responsibility to do anything.

Rather than making others fulfill our ideas of what is best for them, perhaps we should act upon our own conscience and leave others the freedom to do the same?
 
The debate is about using force to make another comply with your wishes.

If you wish to help every 70 year old about to be evicted, that is noble. If you advocate using force to make somebody join you that is not so noble.

If my kid, mother, loved ones etc. get sick it's not YOUR responsibility to do anything.

Rather than making others fulfill our ideas of what is best for them, perhaps we should act upon our own conscience and leave others the freedom to do the same?
I completely agree with you.:clap:

I'm not saying to force any person to do anything, ever! I'm saying that as humans with some form of conscious we should be so inclined already to help one another out without any use of force or coercion. Whenever somebody is in need and help, as humans we should (as john lennon said) "come together". I would never advocate anyone interfering with another persons will, as I would not want my true will to be interferred with. I was just talking about helping one another. there shouldn't be any ulterior motives in helping humans, period. Human history has shown that humans can and do help eachother in times of need. Hurriance Katrina is a prime example. Until the government got involved with katrina there was actual mutual aid and truly humans helping humans. Look up the Common Ground Collective to see true mutual aid. These were just ordinary humans and anarchists helping people regain their lives, until the government shut them down and told them that they had to get "legal" before they could help. http://www.commongroundrelief.org/ Mutual aid, solidarity, and humanity is all over that site.

So thats why I can't believe when talking about this Health care reform non-sense that it's an actual issue. The "issue" is so rife with politics and greed that its sickening and we loose sight of whats really important about it all; the people! What the health care issue boils down to is this:

Does everybody (in the world) deserve to be healthy, have access to a doctor and hospital whenever in need, and not die or be blasted with debt until death because you had to save your or a loved ones life? Does every person have the right to be alive and happy?

If you answer no then that seems pretty sick to me.
 

mrmadcow

Well-Known Member
Does everybody (in the world) deserve to be healthy, have access to a doctor and hospital whenever in need, and not die or be blasted with debt until death because you had to save your or a loved ones life? Does every person have the right to be alive and happy?
yes & everyone deserves a car, decent house,good food,ect but how are you going to make this happen without forcing others to pay for it? judging from your posts,you favor government healthcare but you also stated;
Until the government got involved with katrina there was actual mutual aid and truly humans helping humans. Look up the Common Ground Collective to see true mutual aid. These were just ordinary humans and anarchists helping people regain their lives, until the government shut them down
I doubt anyone against government healthcare is against private charity to help the poor but instead belive that we the people can do a better job if government gets out of the way. most medical procedures in India costs 1/4 of what it costs in the states and have equal or better outcomes because they dont have the red tape our government requires.
 
Yes one thing I should of noted is that I come from an anarchist background. I don't believe in government or any form of State sanctioned healthcare reform. I think that the entire SYSTEM needs to be dismantled, not just health care.

Also, by you comparing a car to your health isn't saying much about how much you think of your health...
 

ilkhan

Well-Known Member
Give genorous tax breaks for Pro Bono work.
Health Savings Accounts.
High deductable Major Medical.

We do NOT need Government pointing guns at people over this nonsence.
We don't need them creating agency after agency to babysit us all.

Government created the current system.
That governmental influance has distorted the markets driving up costs.
Now here comes Government right on que.
To save us from its mess.

No thanks, F off and die.
 
Give genorous tax breaks for Pro Bono work.
Health Savings Accounts.
High deductable Major Medical.

We do NOT need Government pointing guns at people over this nonsence.
We don't need them creating agency after agency to babysit us all.

Government created the current system.
That governmental influance has distorted the markets driving up costs.
Now here comes Government right on que.
To save us from its mess.

No thanks, F off and die.
Very nice.:clap:
 

thechoroid

Active Member
Too bad I'm not stoned to be as eloquent as you guys but here's my point of view. A human being is given the right to life and survival with the first cry he gives out when he is born. Those that adjucate that right is GOD and his parents. It is after that cry that the right to good health and life lies on the shoulders of his parents untill he reaches puberty and becomes an individual capable of making his own decisions on how to lead his life and what to do with the body bestowed upon him. Some prefer to keep that soul carrying machine in tip top shape in order to survive longer and healthier and others tend not to, thus acquiring different healthcare problems that might be life threatning. The problem does not lie in the healthcare system, it lies in the manner nations tend to feed themselves and gradually destroy the purity of the human body with chemicals and junk. But what do I know, I'm just a doctor:)
 
Top