Science Over Faith?

Nocturn3

Well-Known Member
Good job Nucturn, you have passed the ignorant scientist club. If you cant be right, ya insult ;)
I can be right and insulting at the same time. :-P

I find it laughable that you are even trying to debate this stuff, since your lack of scientific knowledge is astounding. Your ignorance of dating methods, theories on dinosaurs, assumption that more O2 will make superhuman giants, and above all else, your belief in the arguments of Kent Hovind, prove that you have no idea what you are actually arguing. I doubt that you understood what his lecture was even about, other than the fact that he was claiming that his version of "science" would validate your beliefs, and he seemed to know what he was talking about.

What you fail to acknowledge is that he is a complete fraud, and consistently uses arguments that have been proven false. Even other "creationist scientists" dislike him, and view him as damaging to their cause.

It seems to me that you just want science to be wrong about something, in the mistaken belief that it will automatically make you right.
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
C'mon doob....you don't actually believe a creationist would use an ape as a substitute for human fossils...... :mrgreen: Sacrilege!!!

I think a creationist would do whatever is necessary to keep up the charade. I'm also pretty sure most creationists aren't going to rely on any scientific methods of identifying the specimen, and their followers aren't going to question it anyway, so what's the point?

We're talking about (mostly) the same kind of people who think the face of Jesus on a pancake is a "miracle", rather than an amusing coincidence.

There's never been any real science in creationism, so why start now?
 
G

guitarabuser

Guest
Not in our lifetime I'm afraid. Unless something major and earth shaking occurs. Religion, both Islam and Christianity are WORKING on making their prophecies of doom come true. Both have an "Armageddon" prophecy, although quite different from each other, both WANT to see an apocalypse take place. This is the MAIN reason why the Middle East is NOT allowed to become a place of peace. It would ruin the prophecies. No, that place must remain agitated for the HOPE of destruction by a personal made up myth....:roll: We're so advanced.
I am in awe of you. You are truly an educated idiot. Since I believe in balance in the universe, I now understand how right-wing extremist zealots can exist in the first place.
While they are quick with the axe to lop off the heads of the heretics, you are running for the knife to cut out the hearts of the believers.
By the way, your intolerant view of religion was prophesized too. That must make you a tool of God. Or maybe just a tool.
 

jfgordon1

Well-Known Member
I am in awe of you. You are truly an educated idiot. Since I believe in balance in the universe, I now understand how right-wing extremist zealots can exist in the first place.
While they are quick with the axe to lop off the heads of the heretics, you are running for the knife to cut out the hearts of the believers.
By the way, your intolerant view of religion was prophesized too. That must make you a tool of God. Or maybe just a tool.
Nice post. Come back when you actually think of something.
Don't try to play it off, Cracker... he burnt yah... you just can't take the heat

:-P
 

Anonymiss1969

Active Member
I am in awe of you. You are truly an educated idiot. Since I believe in balance in the universe, I now understand how right-wing extremist zealots can exist in the first place.
While they are quick with the axe to lop off the heads of the heretics, you are running for the knife to cut out the hearts of the believers.
By the way, your intolerant view of religion was prophesized too. That must make you a tool of God. Or maybe just a tool.
Anything that is "prophesized" is likely to happen eventually because the way they prophesize is they come up with some ambiguous idea that is feasible. Then, when it happens people go fuckin ape shit.

Here's one: Someone will come back with a post and try to argue this point.

Don't try to play it off, Cracker... he burnt yah... you just can't take the heat

:-P
He didn't burn anyone. He posted an attack that was all opinion and no concrete ideas. Just a feign swing to try to sound smart and discredit Cracker.
 

Green Cross

Well-Known Member
Science is lacking

The gaps are huge
Palaeochiropteryx tupaiodon— one of the ‘oldest’ (by evolutionary reckoning) fossil bats. It was found in the Messel oil shale pit near Darmstadt, Germany, and is ‘dated’ between 48 and 54 million years old. It clearly had fully developed wings, and its inner ear had the same construction as those of modern bats, showing that it had full sonar equipment (see chapter 9 for more details of this exquisitely designed system).

Teaching about Evolution avoids discussing the vast gulf between non-living matter and the first living cell, single-celled and multicelled creatures, and invertebrates and vertebrates. The gaps between these groups should be enough to show that molecules-to-man evolution is without foundation.

There are many other examples of different organisms appearing abruptly and fully formed in the fossil record. For example, the first bats, pterosaurs, and birds were fully fledged flyers. The photograph to the right shows that bats have always been bats.6

Turtles are a well designed and specialized group of reptiles, with a distinctive shell protecting the body’s vital organs.

However, evolutionists admit ‘Intermediates between turtles and cotylosaurs, the primitive reptiles from which [evolutionists believe] turtles probably sprang, are entirely lacking.’ They can’t plead an incomplete fossil record because ‘turtles leave more and better fossil remains than do other vertebrates.’7 The ‘oldest known sea turtle’ was a fully formed turtle, not at all transitional. It had a fully developed system for excreting salt, without which a marine reptile would quickly dehydrate. This is shown by skull cavities which would have held large salt-excreting glands around the eyes.8
All 32 mammal orders appear abruptly and fully formed in the fossil record. The evolutionist paleontologist George Gaylord Simpson wrote in 1944:
The earliest and most primitive members of every order already have the basic ordinal characters, and in no case is an approximately continuous series from one order to another known. In most cases the break is so sharp and the gap so large that the origin of the order is speculative and much disputed.10
There is little to overturn that today.11
Excuses

Like most evolutionary propaganda, Teaching about Evolution makes assertions that there are many transitional forms, and gives a few ‘examples.’ A box on page 15 contains the gleeful article by the evolutionist (and atheist) E.O. Wilson, ‘Discovery of a Missing Link.’ He claimed to have studied ‘nearly exact intermediates between solitary wasps and the highly social modern ants.’ But another atheistic evolutionist, W.B. Provine, says that Wilson’s ‘assertions are explicitly denied by the text … . Wilson’s comments are misleading at best.’12
Teaching about Evolution emphasizes Archaeopteryx and an alleged land mammal-to-whale transition series, so they are covered in chapters 4 and 5 of this book. Teaching about Evolution also makes the following excuse on page 57:
Some changes in populations might occur too rapidly to leave many transitional fossils. Also, many organisms were very unlikely to leave fossils because of their habitats or because they had no body parts that could easily be fossilized.
Darwin also excused the lack of transitional fossils by ‘the extreme imperfection of the fossil record.’ But as we have seen, even organisms that leave excellent fossils, like turtles, are lacking in intermediates. Michael Denton points out that 97.7 percent of living orders of land vertebrates are represented as fossils and 79.1 percent of living families of land vertebrates—87.8 percent if birds are excluded, as they are less likely to become fossilized.13
Artist’s impression of a living horseshoe bat.9

It’s true that fossilization requires specific conditions. Normally, when a fish dies, it floats to the top and rots and is eaten by scavengers. Even if some parts reach the bottom, the scavengers take care of them. Scuba divers don’t find the sea floor covered with dead animals being slowly fossilized. The same applies to land animals. Millions of buffaloes (bison) were killed in North America last century, but there are very few fossils.
In nature, a well-preserved fossil generally requires rapid burial (so scavengers don’t obliterate the carcass), and cementing agents to harden the fossil quickly. Teaching about Evolution has some good photos of a fossil fish with well-preserved features (p. 3) and a jellyfish (p. 36). Such fossils certainly could not have formed gradually—how long do dead jellyfish normally retain their features? If you wanted to form such fossils, the best way might be to dump a load of concrete on top of the creature! Only catastrophic conditions can explain most fossils—for example, a global flood and its aftermath of widespread regional catastrophism.
Teaching about Evolution goes on to assert after the previous quote:
However, in many cases, such as between primitive fish and amphibians, amphibians and reptiles, reptiles and mammals, and reptiles and birds, there are excellent transitional fossils.​
But Teaching about Evolution provides no evidence for this! We can briefly examine some of the usual evolutionary claims below (for reptile-to-bird, see the next chapter on birds):
  • Fish to amphibian: Some evolutionists believe that amphibians evolved from a Rhipidistian fish, something like the coelacanth. It was believed that they used their fleshy, lobed fins for walking on the sea-floor before emerging on the land. This speculation seemed impossible to disprove, since according to evolutionary/long-age interpretations of the fossil record, the last coelacanth lived about 70 million years ago. But a living coelacanth (Latimeria chalumnae) was discovered in 1938. And it was found that the fins were not used for walking but for deft maneuvering when swimming. Its soft parts were also totally fish-like, not transitional. It also has some unique features—it gives birth to live young after about a year’s gestation, it has a small second tail to help its swimming, and a gland that detects electrical signals.14 The earliest amphibian, Ichthyostega (mentioned on p. 39 of Teaching about Evolution), is hardly transitional, but has fully formed legs and shoulder and pelvic girdles, while there is no trace of these in the Rhipidistians.
  • Amphibian to reptile: Seymouria is a commonly touted intermediate between amphibians and reptiles. But this creature is dated (by evolutionary dating methods) at 280 million years ago, about 30 million years younger than the ‘earliest’ true reptiles Hylonomus and Paleothyris. That is, reptiles are allegedly millions of years older than their alleged ancestors! Also, there is no good reason for thinking it was not completely amphibian in its reproduction. The jump from amphibian to reptile eggs requires the development of a number of new structures and a change in biochemistry—see the section below on soft part changes.
  • Reptile to mammal: The ‘mammal-like reptiles’ are commonly asserted to be transitional. But according to a specialist on these creatures:
    Each species of mammal-like reptile that has been found appears suddenly in the fossil record and is not preceded by the species that is directly ancestral to it. It disappears some time later, equally abruptly, without leaving a directly descended species.15
    Evolutionists believe that the earbones of mammals evolved from some jawbones of reptiles. But Patterson recognized that there was no clear-cut connection between the jawbones of ‘mammal-like reptiles’ and the earbones of mammals. In fact, evolutionists have argued about which bones relate to which.16
The function of possible intermediates

The inability to imagine functional intermediates is a real problem. If a bat or bird evolved from a land animal, the transitional forms would have forelimbs that were neither good legs nor good wings. So how would such things be selected? The fragile long limbs of hypothetical halfway stages of bats and pterosaurs would seem more like a hindrance than a help.
Soft part changes

Of course, the soft parts of many creatures would also have needed to change drastically, and there is little chance of preserving them in the fossil record. For example, the development of the amniotic egg would have required many different innovations, including:
  • The shell.
  • The two new membranes—the amnion and allantois.
  • Excretion of water-insoluble uric acid rather than urea (urea would poison the embryo).
  • Albumen together with a special acid to yield its water.
  • Yolk for food.
  • A change in the genital system allowing the fertilization of the egg before the shell hardens.17
Another example is the mammals—they have many soft-part differences from reptiles, for example:
  • Mammals have a different circulatory system, including red blood cells without nuclei, a heart with four chambers instead of three and one aorta instead of two, and a fundamentally different system of blood supply to the eye.
  • Mammals produce milk, to feed their young.
  • Mammalian skin has two extra layers, hair and sweat glands.
  • Mammals have a diaphragm, a fibrous, muscular partition between the thorax and abdomen, which is vital for breathing. Reptiles breathe in a different way.
  • Mammals keep their body temperature constant (warm-bloodedness), requiring a complex temperature control mechanism.
  • The mammalian ear has the complex organ of Corti, absent from all reptile ears.18
  • Mammalian kidneys have a ‘very high ultrafiltration rate of the blood.’ This means the heart must be able to produce the required high blood pressure. Mammalian kidneys excrete urea instead of uric acid, which requires different chemistry. They are also finely regulated to maintain constant levels of substances in the blood, which requires a complex endocrine system.19
References and notes

  1. C.R. Darwin, Origin of Species, 6th edition, 1872 (London: John Murray, 1902), p. 413.
  2. C. Patterson, letter to Luther D. Sunderland, 10 April 1979, as published in Darwin’s Enigma (Green Forest, AR: Master Books, 4th ed. 1988), p. 89. Patterson later tried to backtrack somewhat from this clear statement, apparently alarmed that creationists would utilize this truth.
  3. S.J. Gould, in Evolution Now: A Century After Darwin, ed. John Maynard Smith, (New York: Macmillan Publishing Co., 1982), p. 140. Teaching about Evolution pages 56–57 publishes a complaint by Gould about creationists quoting him about the rarity of transitional forms. He accuses creationists of representing him as denying evolution itself. This complaint is unjustified. Creationists make it very clear that he is a staunch evolutionist the whole point is that he is a ‘hostile witness.’
  4. S.J. Gould, The Ediacaran Experiment, Natural History 93(2):14–23, Feb. 1984.
  5. L. Sunderland, ref. 2, p. 47–48.
  6. Photograph and information courtesy of Dr Joachim Scheven of the Lebendige Vorwelt Museum in Germany.
  7. Reptiles, Encyclopedia Britannica 26:704–705, 15th ed., 1992.
  8. Ren Hirayama, Oldest Known Sea Turtle, Nature 392(6678):705–708, 16 April 1998; comment by Henry Gee, p. 651, same issue.
  9. Courtesy of Steve Cardno, 1998.
  10. G.G. Simpson, Tempo and Mode in Evolution (NY: Columbia University Press, 1944), p. 105–106.
  11. A useful book on the fossil record is D.T. Gish, Evolution: The Fossils STILL Say NO! (El Cahon, CA: Institute for Creation Research, 1995).
  12. Teaching about Evolution and the Nature of Science, A Review by Dr Will B. Provine. Available from <fp.bio.utk.edu/darwin/NAS_guidebook/provine_1.html>, 18 February 1999.
  13. M. Denton, Evolution, a Theory in Crisis (Chevy Chase, MD: Adler & Adler, 1985), p. 190.
  14. M. Denton, footnote 13, p. 157, 178–180; see also W. Roush, ‘Living Fossil’ Is Dethroned, Science 277(5331):1436, 5 September 1997, and No Stinking Fish in My Tail, Discover, March 1985, p. 40.
  15. T.S. Kemp, The Reptiles that Became Mammals, New Scientist 92:583, 4 March 1982.
  16. C. Patterson, Morphological Characters and Homology; in K.A. Joysey and A.E. Friday (eds.), Problems of Phylogenetic Reconstruction, Proceedings of an International Symposium held in Cambridge, The Systematics Association Special Volume 21 (Academic Press, 1982), 21–74.
  17. M. Denton, footnote 13, p. 218–219.
  18. D. Dewar, The Transformist Illusion, 2nd edition, (Ghent, NY: Sophia Perennis et Universalis, 1995), p. 223–232.
  19. T.S. Kemp, Mammal-like Reptiles and the Origin of Mammals (New York: Academic Press, 1982), p. 309–310.
 

fish601

Active Member
Another discovery of a calcified human's footprint has been made in Turkmenia. Its age leads us all the way back to 150 million years, to the Mesozoic period, and ultimately to the time of dinosaurs. Can it be possible that humans inhabited this planet along with such monstrous creatures? Yes

In 1961, two Russian scientists Okladnikov and Rogozhin discovered a large variety of tools in Siberia not far away from a town named Gorno-Altaisk located by the river Utalinka. They concluded that their finds date back to 1,5-2 million years. Another Russian scientist Molchanov discovered absolutely identical tools on the river Lena near a village Urlak. Radiocarbon dating analyses of these finds has clearly identified a precise date: almost 2 million years.
 

Anonymiss1969

Active Member
Another discovery of a calcified human's footprint has been made in Turkmenia. Its age leads us all the way back to 150 million years, to the Mesozoic period, and ultimately to the time of dinosaurs. Can it be possible that humans inhabited this planet along with such monstrous creatures? Yes

In 1961, two Russian scientists Okladnikov and Rogozhin discovered a large variety of tools in Siberia not far away from a town named Gorno-Altaisk located by the river Utalinka. They concluded that their finds date back to 1,5-2 million years. Another Russian scientist Molchanov discovered absolutely identical tools on the river Lena near a village Urlak. Radiocarbon dating analyses of these finds has clearly identified a precise date: almost 2 million years.
I must have missed a previous post that makes this relevant. Whats this supposed to prove?

According to the bible, isn't earth supposed to be really fucking young? Like younger than a million years old?
 

fish601

Active Member
as far as i know the bible doesnt say how old the earth is... that is why i do not care what scientist come up with.. i just know the dating methods suck
 

Nocturn3

Well-Known Member
as far as i know the bible doesnt say how old the earth is... that is why i do not care what scientist come up with.. i just know the dating methods suck
You don't know shit about dating methods, as you've proven repeatedly in recent days. You just want to believe they suck, because the things they help prove are at odds with your fairy tales.
 

fish601

Active Member
You don't know shit about dating methods, as you've proven repeatedly in recent days. You just want to believe they suck, because the things they help prove are at odds with your fairy tales.
did you not read my post above yours?

let me say it again.. the bible does not say how old the earth is. If it were 999 billion years old that would be fine with me. Dating methods do not work.
 

fish601

Active Member
DISSENTERS EJECTED, R. L. Mauger, East Carolina Univ., "In general, dates in the 'correct ball park' are assumed to be correct and are published, but those in disagreement with other data are seldom published nor or the discrepancies fully explained.", Contributions To Geology, Vol.15 (1): 17
DIFFERENT AGES FROM ONE ROCK, Joan C. Engels, "It is now well known that K-Ar ages obtained from different minerals in a single rock may be strikingly discordant." Journal of Geology,Vol.79, p.609
RECENT LAVA @ 22M, C.S.Nobel & J.J.Naughton, Hawaiian Inst. of Geophysics, "The radiogenic argon and helium contents of three basalts erupted into the deep ocean from an active volcano (Kilauea) have been measured. Ages calculated from these measurements increase with sample depth up to 22 million years for lavas deduced to be recent. ...these lavas are very young, probably less than 200 years old. The samples, in fact, may be very recent...", Science, Vol.162, p.265
PRECISION DATING? ROGER LEWIN, Ed. Research News, Science, â&#8364;&#339;The calculated age was quickly refined to be 2.61 ± 0.26 million years, which, to anthropologist unfamiliar with the procedures of radiometric dating, has a ring of comforting precision about it. ...41 separate age determinations... which varied between 223 million and 0.91 million years ...after the first determination they never again obtained 2.61 from their experiments.â&#8364; BONES OF CONTENTION, p.194
ARBITRARY, A. HAYATSU, Dept. of Geophysics, U. of Western Ont., "In conventional interpretation of K-Ar age data, it is common to discard ages which are substantially too high or too low compared with the rest of the group or with other available data such as the geological time scale. The discrepancies between the rejected and the accepted are arbitrarily attributed to excess or loss of argon." Canadian Journal Of Earth Science, 16:974.
"THE IMPERFECT ART OF ESTIMATING GEOLOGICAL TIME" BATES MCKEE, U. of Washington, â&#8364;&#339;If the laboratory results contradict the field evidence, the geologist assumes that there is something wrong with the machine date. To put it another way, â&#8364;&#732;goodâ&#8364;&#8482; dates are those that agree with the field data. ...the geologist has more faith in the fossil evidence than in a machine date, and this reflects some of the uncertainties of radiometric determinations and the interpretation of results.â&#8364; CASCADIA, The Geological Evolution Of The Pacific Northwest, p.25, 27
"C14 AGES IN ERROR", ROBERT E. LEE, "The troubles of the radiocarbon dating method are undeniably deep and serious. Despite 35 years of technological refinement and better under-standing, the underlying assumptions have been strongly challenged.... It should be no surprise, then, that fully half of the dates are rejected. The wonder is, surely, that the remaining half come out to be accepted. There are gross discrepancies, the chronology is uneven and relative, and the accepted dates are actually selected dates." Anthropological Journal of Canada, Vol. 19, no. 3, 1981, p.9
FUNDAMENTAL ASSUMPTION, Report on C14 Conference (145 International Scientists), Science, Vol. 150, p. 1490. "Throughout the conference emphasis was placed on the fact that laboratories do not measure ages, they measure sample activities. The connection between activity and age is made through a set of assumptions. ...one of the main assumptions of C14 dating is that the atmospheric radiocarbon level has held steady over the age-range to which the method applies." C14 INCREASING ! H. E. Suess, UCLA, "Symposium Organized By International Atomic Energy Authority, ...presented the latest determinations...as adduced from the current activity of dendrochronologically dated growth rings of the Californian bristle cone pine. ...The carbon14 concentration increases rather steadily during this time. These results confirm the change in carbon14 concentration.... and indicate that the concentration increases..." Science, Vol.157, p.726
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Gaps in evolution.... now that is a SHOCKER!!!! Never mind that all of the KNOWN fossil records SUPPORT evolution and NOT creationism.

How can there be gaps in the fossil record which are relatively rare in relative proportion to the age of the earth and all that has passed before?

The Bible and religion are not scientific in the least and you guys CONSTANTLY make the mistake of trying to use it to reinforce the myth.

Of course you don't have much else to go on do you..... Every decade the Religious grow a bit more desperate to stay in the closet of denial as truly verifiable evidence of evolution ROLLS up against them.... :wink:

In the end.....you will all let it go as it becomes truly an untenable position. As with all tenants of the Christian religion, there is no true anchor but a floating buoy bobbing in the tidal forces of a modern world.
 

Nocturn3

Well-Known Member
Fish, as i've already pointed out to you, proper dating involves a shitload of tests of different types. Each test has it's limitations, and some are problematic when used on certain sample types, but when you put them all together, the overall result is highly accurate.

As with anything else in life, there is the potential for human error, faulty equipment and sample contamination, but these situations are the exeption, rather than the rule.

If they were that flawed, they wouldn't be used. You only learned how they date rocks yesterday. You don't understand this stuff well enough to claim anything about it, and the fact that you keep trying says that you are just blindly pushing the agenda you have been programmed with.
 
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