I Have A ? For You Religious People.

Green Cross

Well-Known Member
The Bible says that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

In order to have intelligent design you must have a Creator.

Let's say you have all the ingredients necessary to make a set of blue prints, pencils, erasers, paper, rulers, etc. and you throw them up in the air, or explode (big bang) them in random patterns... do this as many times as you like you're never going to create anything but a mess.

Science only confirms every thing creationist already believe, the universe is incomprehensible, and miraculous. :peace:
 

DubsFan

Well-Known Member
At least everyone here has finally agreed that the big bang is a stretch.

I'm still sticking to 0+0=0. Something from nothing does not exist even on another planet or the sun.
 

Green Cross

Well-Known Member
From:
The Evolution of Man
Scientifically Disproved


in 50 Arguments

27. TWENTY OBJECTIONS ADMITTED
Evolutionists themselves, even including Darwin, admit as many as 20 objections to his theory. Darwin states the first four and Prof. V. L. Kellogg sums up the remaining 16 on pp. 247-52 of "Readings in Evolution." Among them are:
1. There must have been innumerable transitional forms in the formation of new species. No convincing evidence of these missing links exists.
2. Natural selection can not account for the instinct of animals such as that of the honey bee, "which has practically anticipated the discoveries of profound mathematics.":
4. The offspring of such nearly related species as can be crossed are sterile, showing that nature discourages and in no wise encourages the formation of new species.
5. The changes resulting from the use and disuse of organs are not inherited.
6. Since Darwinism eliminates design, it is only the exploded ancient heathen doctrine of chance.
7. Variation is so slight as to be imperceptible, and, therefore, cannot account for the "survival of the fittest." If the same progressive changes do not occur generally, if not universally, in the numbers of the same species in the same period, no new species can arise. Such general changes do not occur.
8. Natural selection could not make use of initial slight changes. "What would be the advantage of the first few hairs of a mammal, or the first steps toward feathers in a bird, when these creatures were beginning to diverge from their reptilian ancestors?"
9. Even if Darwinism should explain the survival of the fittest, it does not explain the survival of the fittest, which is far more important.
10. Darwin says, "I am convinced that natural selection has been the most important but not the exclusive means of modification." Many scientists think it of very little importance, and that it is not true.
11. "The fluctuating variations of Darwinism are quantitative, or plus and minus variations; whereas, the differences between species are qualitative." Growth and development in one species does not produce a new species, which must be of a different kind. Miles Darden, of Tennessee, was 90 inches tall, and weighed 1000 pounds, but remained a member of the human species, though he was as high and heavy as a horse. So did the giant Posius, over 10 feet tall, who lived in the days of Augustus.
12. "There is a growing skepticism on the part of biologists as to the extreme fierceness of the struggle for existence and of the consequent rigor of selection." Overproduction and shortage of space and food might sometime be a factor of importance, but has it been so in the past? Has it affected the human race?
13. Darwin proposed the theory of gemmules. Prof. H. H. Newman says, "This theory was not satisfactory even to Darwin and is now only of historical interest."
14. Darwin's subsidiary theory of sexual selection has also been rejected by scientists as worthless.
In view of these and other objections, is it any wonder that Darwin's theory has been so largely rejected by the scientific world?
And is it not amazing that self-styled "scientists" hold on to their precious theory of evolution, as if these objections had no weight? They can not save evolution even by rejecting Darwinism.
Dr. Etheridge, famous fossilologist of the British Museum, one of the highest authorities in the world, said: "Nine-tenths of the talk of evolutionists is sheer nonsense not founded on observation and wholly unsupported by facts. This museum is full of proofs of the utter falsity of their views. In all this great museum, there is not a particle of evidence of the transmutation of species." Is a man in that position not a credible witness?
Prof. Beale, of King's College, London, a distinguished physiologist, said: "There is no evidence that man has descended from, or is, or was, in any way specially related to, any other organism in nature, through evolution, or by any other process. In support of all naturalistic conjectures concerning man's origin, there is not, at this time, a shadow of scientific evidence."
Prof Virchow, of Berlin, a naturalist of world wide fame, said: The attempt to find the transition from the .animal to man has ended in total failure. The middle link has not been found and never will be. Evolution is all nonsense. It can not be proved by science that man descended from the ape or from any other animal."
Prof. Fleishman, of Erlangen, who once accepted Darwinism, but after further investigation repudiated it, said: "The Darwinian theory of descent has not a single fact to confirm it, in the realm of nature. It is not the result of scientific research, but is purely the product of the imagination."
Prof. Agassiz, one of the greatest scientists of any age, said: "The theory [of the transmutation of species] is a scientific mistake, untrue in its facts, unscientific in its method, and mischievous in its tendency There is not a fact known to science, tending to show that a single kind has ever been transmuted into any other."
Dr. W. H. Thompson, former president of NY Academy of Medicine, said: "The Darwinian theory is now rejected by the majority of biologists, as absurdly inadequate. It is absurd to rank man among the animals. His so called fellow animals, the primates--gorilla, orang and chimpanzee--can do nothing truly human."
Sir William Dawson, an eminent geologist, of Canada, said: "The record of the rocks is decidedly against evolutionists, especially in the abrupt appearance of new forms under specific types, and without apparent predecessors...Paleontology furnishes no evidence as to the actual transformation of one species into another. No such case is certainly known. Nothing is known about the origin of man except what is told in Scripture."
The foremost evolutionists, Spencer, Huxley and Romanes, before their death, repudiated Darwinism. Haeckel alone supported the theory and that by forged evidence.
Dr. St. George Mivert, late professor of biology in the University College of Kensington, calls Darwinism a "puerile hypothesis."
Dr. James Orr, of Edinburgh University, says: "The greatest scientists and theologians of Europe are now pronouncing Darwinism to be absolutely dead."
Dr. Traas, a famous paleontologist, concludes: "The idea that mankind is descended from any simian species whatever, is certainly the most foolish ever put forth by a man writing on the history of man." Does this apply to H. G. Wells?
Dr. N. S. Shaler, professor of Geology, in Harvard University, said: "It is not yet proved that a single species of the two or three millions, now inhabiting the earth had been established solely or mainly, by the operation of natural selection."
Prof. Haeckel, a most extreme evolutionist, confesses: "Most modern investigators of science have come to the conclusion that the doctrine of evolution, and particularly Darwinism, is an error, and can not be maintained.
Prof. Huxley, said that evolution is "not proved and not provable."
Sir Charles Bell, Prof. of the University College of London, says: "Everything declares the species to have their origin in a distinct creation, not in a gradual variation from some original type."
These testimonies of scientists of the first rank are a part of a large number. Many of them and many more, are given in Prof. Townsend's "Collapse of Evolution," McCann's "God or Gorilla," Philip Mauro's "Evolution At the Bar," and other anti-evolution books. Alfred McCann, in his great work, "God or Gorilla," mentions 20 of the most prominent scholars, who do not accept Darwinism. Yet they say, "All scholars accept evolution."

"...
25. ANALOGY; MATHEMATICS, LAWS
Analogy raises a presumption against evolution. Analogy is not a demonstration. It is an illustration that strengthens and confirms other arguments. Both the science of mathematics and all physical laws must have come into being in an instant of time. Evolution is not God's usual method of creation.
1. Mathematical--There is no evolution in the science of mathematics. There is no change or growth or development. God is the author of all mathematical principles. The square described on the hypotenuse of a right-angled triangle is equal to the sum of the squares described on the other two sides, because he made it so The circumference of a circle is approximately 3.1416 times the diameter because he made it so. The wonderful calculations by logarithms, whether by the common system with a base of 10, or the Napierian system with a base of 2.718+ a decimal that never terminates, are possible and reliable only because God made them so. Think what great intelligence is required by the Napierian system, to raise a decimal that never terminates, to a decimal power that never terminates, in order to produce an integral number. Yet God has computed instantaneously every table of logarithms, and every other mathematical table--no matter how difficult. Thus we have positive proof of the presence everywhere of a great intelligent Being, and we catch a glimpse of that mind that must be infinite. He created the whole system of mathematics, vast beyond our comprehension, at once. A part could not exist without the whole. No growth; no change; no evolution; no improvement, because the whole system was perfect from the first. Reasoning from analogy, is it not reasonable to say that the God who flashed upon the whole universe, the limitless system of mathematics in an instant, also created man as Moses said? Analogy supports the doctrine of the special creation of man in a day.
The great system of mathematics which could not exist without a creator, is so extensive that 40 units are taught in a single university. New subjects are added, new text books written, new formulas devised, new principles demonstrated--and the subject is by no means exhausted He, by whose will this fathomless science came into existence, knows more than all the mathematicians of the past, present and future, and possibly all the evolutionists of the world."

And that isn't even half of it. Click on the link above to see the whole work.
 

krustofskie

Well-Known Member
At least everyone here has finally agreed that the big bang is a stretch.

I'm still sticking to 0+0=0. Something from nothing does not exist even on another planet or the sun.
Have you been reading. Everything must be a stretch if you go along your thinking. Nothing is 100% but with the data we have the big bang is the most likely. Certainly more likely than religions answers. And the big bang theory does not say everything comes from nothing. It does not try to explain the before as it does not have the data to come to that conclusion, so then we must surmise what was before and it seems quite logical that all matter has always existed, why must there have been a creator that put it there, cant everything just 'be' and everything is on a cycle, universe expands, universe contracts, universe expands universe contracts and so on and so on.
 

OregonMeds

Well-Known Member
Weak arguments are one thing, but:
"6. Since Darwinism eliminates design, it is only the exploded ancient heathen doctrine of chance."

Someone honestly wrote this down as one of the top reasons disproving evolution? And we're supposed to still take any of the rest of that seriously?

Ancient heathen doctrine, that's a kick.
 
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PadawanBater

Guest
Imagine I had two cups, one with blue liquid and one with yellow liquid. I take a straw and get a few drops of blue and drop them into the yellow cup. Say I did this for an hour... Now, at what point does the yellow liquid turn green? Is there an exact moment that it happens? Can you stop the timer at a random moment and clock that as "GREEN!"?

That is how evolution works... only muuuuuuuuuuuuuuch larger amounts of time and many more changes...
 

DubsFan

Well-Known Member
I belive in evolution...duh right. We've found the bones. I don't need analogies and feel analogies are a crutch for lack of a better explanation.

I'm willing to accept that there is some science. Despite zero support anywhere in science for my "something from nothing" idea, you still firmly believe religion cannot exist but yet only science can.

Your unwillingness to come off your platform makes you sound like the same people that say that the world is only a few thousand years old.
 

krustofskie

Well-Known Member
I'm willing to accept that there is some science. Despite zero support anywhere in science for my "something from nothing" idea, you still firmly believe religion cannot exist but yet only science can.
I and the big bang theory DO NOT claim "something comes from nothing", why do you keep bringing this up as an argument. For the third time now I will put it to you that all matter has always existed and the big bang is something that has happened countless times before and will happen countless times more in the future due to the universe expanding and then contracting time and time again.

And your right I don't think religion can exist with science but I can conceive a "God" existing with science, not what I believe but I can conceive it. Seperate man made religions from th idea of "God"
 

DubsFan

Well-Known Member
I and the big bang theory DO NOT claim "something comes from nothing", why do you keep bringing this up as an argument. For the third time now I will put it to you that all matter has always existed and the big bang is something that has happened countless times before and will happen countless times more in the future due to the universe expanding and then contracting time and time again.

And your right I don't think religion can exist with science but I can conceive a "God" existing with science, not what I believe but I can conceive it. Seperate man made religions from th idea of "God"
It's a very simple concept that science does not like to discuss. So it's not in any of their teachings. That's why.

It's as simple as it gets. No copying and pasting, no references from the bible or from other books. Just really simple.

So simple my athiest friends won't answer the question. It really gets them wound up.
 

krustofskie

Well-Known Member
It's a very simple concept that science does not like to discuss. So it's not in any of their teachings. That's why.

It's as simple as it gets. No copying and pasting, no references from the bible or from other books. Just really simple.

So simple my athiest friends won't answer the question. It really gets them wound up.
But you are claiming that science says the big bang came from nothing when they don't, so you're argument is mute. You are making a statement not asking a question. Who in science says 0+0=1, no-one is claiming that but you insist they do, so for a fourth time of telling you all matter could have existed for all time and the universe has expanded and contracted many many times, this is not 0+0=1. Science doesn't have all the answers, yet, thats why you're athiest friends cant answer you.

To say science doesn't like to discuss it, shut up, thats all science does, to try and explain and learn all they can with logic and reason using the evidence at their disposale.
 

Mcgician

Well-Known Member
You can't take the bible literally! Nor can you take infant sciences at their word either. The Bible is full of stories and lessons, and in many cases, has the archaeological evidence to back up what is written. Science can NEVER disprove the existence of God. Try again.
 

krustofskie

Well-Known Member
You can't take the bible literally! Nor can you take infant sciences at their word either. The Bible is full of stories and lessons, and in many cases, has the archaeological evidence to back up what is written. Science can NEVER disprove the existence of God. Try again.
Your are right and I agree "Science can never disprove the existence of "God" and its not trying to. But it does contradict religouse teachings. The argument is against man made religions invented by man to control man by man, not against the existence of a "God"
 

Mcgician

Well-Known Member
Your are right and I agree "Science can never disprove the existence of "God" and its not trying to. But it does contradict religouse teachings. The argument is against man made religions invented by man to control man by man, not against the existence of a "God"
Where does it say that? thanks. :peace:
 

Nocturn3

Well-Known Member
14. Darwin's subsidiary theory of sexual selection has also been rejected by scientists as worthless.
In view of these and other objections, is it any wonder that Darwin's theory has been so largely rejected by the scientific world?
And is it not amazing that self-styled "scientists" hold on to their precious theory of evolution, as if these objections had no weight? They can not save evolution even by rejecting Darwinism.
Dr. Etheridge, famous fossilologist of the British Museum, one of the highest authorities in the world, said: "Nine-tenths of the talk of evolutionists is sheer nonsense not founded on observation and wholly unsupported by facts. This museum is full of proofs of the utter falsity of their views. In all this great museum, there is not a particle of evidence of the transmutation of species." Is a man in that position not a credible witness?
Prof. Beale, of King's College, London, a distinguished physiologist, said: "There is no evidence that man has descended from, or is, or was, in any way specially related to, any other organism in nature, through evolution, or by any other process. In support of all naturalistic conjectures concerning man's origin, there is not, at this time, a shadow of scientific evidence."
Prof Virchow, of Berlin, a naturalist of world wide fame, said: The attempt to find the transition from the .animal to man has ended in total failure. The middle link has not been found and never will be. Evolution is all nonsense. It can not be proved by science that man descended from the ape or from any other animal."
Prof. Fleishman, of Erlangen, who once accepted Darwinism, but after further investigation repudiated it, said: "The Darwinian theory of descent has not a single fact to confirm it, in the realm of nature. It is not the result of scientific research, but is purely the product of the imagination."
Prof. Agassiz, one of the greatest scientists of any age, said: "The theory [of the transmutation of species] is a scientific mistake, untrue in its facts, unscientific in its method, and mischievous in its tendency There is not a fact known to science, tending to show that a single kind has ever been transmuted into any other."
Dr. W. H. Thompson, former president of NY Academy of Medicine, said: "The Darwinian theory is now rejected by the majority of biologists, as absurdly inadequate. It is absurd to rank man among the animals. His so called fellow animals, the primates--gorilla, orang and chimpanzee--can do nothing truly human."
Sir William Dawson, an eminent geologist, of Canada, said: "The record of the rocks is decidedly against evolutionists, especially in the abrupt appearance of new forms under specific types, and without apparent predecessors...Paleontology furnishes no evidence as to the actual transformation of one species into another. No such case is certainly known. Nothing is known about the origin of man except what is told in Scripture."
The foremost evolutionists, Spencer, Huxley and Romanes, before their death, repudiated Darwinism. Haeckel alone supported the theory and that by forged evidence.
Dr. St. George Mivert, late professor of biology in the University College of Kensington, calls Darwinism a "puerile hypothesis."
Dr. James Orr, of Edinburgh University, says: "The greatest scientists and theologians of Europe are now pronouncing Darwinism to be absolutely dead."
Dr. Traas, a famous paleontologist, concludes: "The idea that mankind is descended from any simian species whatever, is certainly the most foolish ever put forth by a man writing on the history of man." Does this apply to H. G. Wells?
Dr. N. S. Shaler, professor of Geology, in Harvard University, said: "It is not yet proved that a single species of the two or three millions, now inhabiting the earth had been established solely or mainly, by the operation of natural selection."
Prof. Haeckel, a most extreme evolutionist, confesses: "Most modern investigators of science have come to the conclusion that the doctrine of evolution, and particularly Darwinism, is an error, and can not be maintained.
Prof. Huxley, said that evolution is "not proved and not provable."
Sir Charles Bell, Prof. of the University College of London, says: "Everything declares the species to have their origin in a distinct creation, not in a gradual variation from some original type."
These testimonies of scientists of the first rank are a part of a large number. Many of them and many more, are given in Prof. Townsend's "Collapse of Evolution," McCann's "God or Gorilla," Philip Mauro's "Evolution At the Bar," and other anti-evolution books. Alfred McCann, in his great work, "God or Gorilla," mentions 20 of the most prominent scholars, who do not accept Darwinism. Yet they say, "All scholars accept evolution."
Your post was bullshit in general, but this list of "the highest authorities in the world" really takes the cake for me. Some of these guys have been the subject of conversations that have taken place in the past few days on here. Most i'd never heard of. So, I hit up google.

This list comprises ENTIRELY of people who lived in the 1800s. Some of them had extreme views in general, and not just regarding religion. Many were actually supporters of evolution who have had their words taken out of context. Some were religious zealots. Many were not the experts your article claims them to be. None of them had access to the evidence we have today, particularly genetic evidence.

Do you have any modern day, respected scientists making these kind of statements?
 

CrackerJax

New Member
I think the big bang theory is missing the whole boat. Odds are it's not about one big bang there is probably just a natural cycle to the universe as there is in all other things. A big bang follwed by a universe expanding for some unthinkable number of years which then slows and eventually contracts and crunches and then bangs again over and over. No actual beginning or end. With life randomly being created every place conditions are right. And as one dimension is expanding another is contracting, as one universe is being destroyed another is being created. Of course no god... Duh...

I agree that perhaps Man at this juncture cannot explain how the Universe came into play. I also think it may be a bit much to ask of 21st century man's science.

So perhaps we are not equipped to say with certainty what happened long ago. It doesn't mean science as a whole is a stretch. Most everyone can agree that so far science has been the best tool man has. We use it every day, sometimes without thinking about it at all, taken for granted.

So using science to look at the Big Bang is not such a stretch. Following where science takes us seems to be the only path that will eventually lead to an answer.

Religion has no real answer. It just says... it is. It has only a book written by men to say it's true.

Religion is the stretch. That much is plain. So which path will bear the fruit? I think that answer is an easy one to make, and more ppl are making it every day.
 

OregonMeds

Well-Known Member
Cracker I think you took my post wrong. I was only trying to clear up the idea that the big bang meant something or everything came from nothing. I believe in the big bang theory, partially at least, unless that claim is made.

I wasn't argiung against it entirely, only that small detail.

I'm an athiest...
 

Green Cross

Well-Known Member
Your post was bullshit in general, but this list of "the highest authorities in the world" really takes the cake for me. Some of these guys have been the subject of conversations that have taken place in the past few days on here. Most i'd never heard of. So, I hit up google.

This list comprises ENTIRELY of people who lived in the 1800s. Some of them had extreme views in general, and not just regarding religion. Many were actually supporters of evolution who have had their words taken out of context. Some were religious zealots. Many were not the experts your article claims them to be. None of them had

access to the evidence we have today, particularly genetic evidence.

Do you have any modern day, respected scientists making these kind of statements?
No, what's BS is your poor attempt to discredit all the sources I listed, using nothing more than immature insults. Now try to think logically instead of emotionally. :mrgreen:

The order seen in the universe can't possibly be explained by some random, disorderly event. If it could... you big bangers, should be able to provide many everyday examples of this happening. Isn't there 1 example of a natural disaster resulting in at least 1 new species?

What's amazing to me is that these big bangers have so much faith in what they preach, even though there is little evidence of a "big bang". Evolution is your religion, and you feel so strongly about it, you're motivated in telling everyone about your new found faith all over the Internet. You're as bad as Jehovah's witnesses aren't you, spreading your doctrine here, with no evidence whatsoever?
 

Green Cross

Well-Known Member
Many Scientists See God's Hand in Evolution

Reports of the National Center for Science EducationTitle:
Many Scientists See God's Hand in Evolution


Author(s):
Larry Witham


Volume:
17


Issue:
6


Select Year:
1997


Date:
November–December


Page(s):
33


This version might differ slightly from the print publication.


While most US scientists think humans are simply smarter apes, at least 4 in 10 believe a creator "guided" evolution so that Homo sapiens are ruled by a soul or consciousness, a new survey shows. Scientists almost unanimously accept Darwinian evolution over millions of years as the source of human origins. But 40% of biologists, mathematicians, physicians, and astronomers include God in the process.

"I believe God could work through evolution," a South Carolina mathematician wrote in a marginal note on the survey "Bell shaped curves describe how characteristics are distributed.. . so I think that God uses what we perceive to be 'random processes.'" Despite such affirmations, however, 55% of scientists hold a naturalistic and atheistic position on the origins of man, according to the random survey of 1000 persons listed in the 1995 American Men and Women of Science.

"I am surprised to find that so many are theistic evolutionists" Duncan Porter, a Virginia Tech botanist and Darwin scholar, said in an interview. "As an Episcopalian, I don't compartmentalize those things," he said of God and evolution, "I put them together in an overall view." Rick Potts, director of human origins at the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History, said it is not unusual to find religious beliefs in any community including scientists.

But "I'm happy to see that 55% are taking a naturalistic approach," he said. "Most anthropologists would draw the line heavily toward the naturalistic side. We want to explain our phenomenon without recourse to things we can't observe or measure." The survey, which had a 60% response rate, asked scientists the same Gallup Poll question posed to the public in 1982 and 1991. In the 1991 round, 40 percent of Americans said God "guided" evolution to create humans.

While this 40% is a middle ground of agreement between scientists and the public, there is a sharp polarization between the groups taking purely naturalistic or biblical views. While most scientists are atheistic about human origins, nearly half of Americans adhere to the biblical view that God created humans "pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10 000 years." Forty-six percent of Americans agreed with this view of human origins in the 1991 Gallup poll. Only 5 percent of the scientists agreed.

Because only a quarter to a third of Americans are Protestant evangelicals or fundamentalists, the 1991 Gallup Poll showed that many mainline Protestants, Catholics and Jews believe in a "last 10,000 years human creation." The 1991 poll also showed that college-educated Americans were far more likely to accept evolution, underscoring their closer affinity to the views of scientists.

The standard view in science is that modern-day Homo sapiens emerged 40,000 years ago and began to organize societies 10,000 years ago. The oldest humanlike ape is called Australopithecus, or "southern ape." It was found in Africa and is believed to date back 4 million years. Homo erectus developed 1.8 million years ago. Neanderthals roamed Europe and Asia beginning 100,000 years ago.

The survey was a separate but parallel study to one reported in Nature (1997 Apr 3; 386:435-6) in which 40 percent of the same scientists reported a belief in a God who answers prayers and in immortality. Both surveys were conducted by a reporter for the Washington Times and Edward J Larson, a historian of science at the University of Georgia. The report in Nature was based on a replication of a 1916 survey that scandalized Americans by finding that 45 percent of scientists were atheists and 15 percent were agnostics. Before the 1859 publication of Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species, scientists and the Western public agreed that God designed human life. Afterward, they became sharply divided.

The belief that God creates through evolution has been called "theistic evolution" though there are different views on how much God intervenes in the process. A physicist from New Mexico wrote on the survey that God created man "within the last 10,000 years, but the universe is billions of years old." Two biologists from Ohio refined the question about God and evolution. One said, "God created the universe and principles of energy and matter, which then guided subsequent evolution." The other said God did not guide the process "but did create the conditions that allowed the process to take place." "Creation science," most visible in school board debates and court rulings, is only one brand of creationism. It holds that the earth is about as young as human creation. But many Bible believers combine an ancient earth and some evolution with a recent human creation.

[This article appeared in the Washington Times on April 11, 1997, pA8. It is reprinted here with permission.]
 

OregonMeds

Well-Known Member
I get such a kick out of statements like that. Spreading doctrine with no evidence whatsoever is what you're guilty of, not us. The only evidence you have is a book written and edited many times by men, based on stories we can see are only ripoffs from previous faiths.

And only you claim evolution is a religion, nobody else does. My life wouldn't change one bit if tomorrow evolution was proved false somehow. If your religion were proved false (to your satisfaction) you can't tell me you wouldn't be devastated.

Aren't you the slick willy con artist precher with a pot club who also teaches "how to get rich quick in the marijuana industry" classes? I question your ethics... I don't know you, maybe you aren't a scamming tool but I think of TV evangalist type guys who claim jesus needs cash when I think of you and your story Green Cross. Have you ever been on TV in that regard? Do you wear a rolex and drive a bently and take money from grandma's on social security or did the police confiscate it all?
 
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PadawanBater

Guest
The order seen in the universe can't possibly be explained by some random, disorderly event. If it could... you big bangers, should be able to provide many everyday examples of this happening. Isn't there 1 example of a natural disaster resulting in at least 1 new species?

What's amazing to me is that these big bangers have so much faith in what they preach, even though there is little evidence of a "big bang". Evolution is your religion, and you feel so strongly about it, you're motivated in telling everyone about your new found faith all over the Internet. You're as bad as Jehovah's witnesses aren't you, spreading your doctrine here, with no evidence whatsoever?
Take a look around, why don't you go ahead and give me a few examples of things in the universe that you think are orderly. Go ahead, I'll wait...

Zero faith involved in accepting the big bang theory. That's another thing that's pretty telling about you guys... How you miss it is beyond me... You know having faith in something is retarded, yet your Bible tells you you MUST have faith. So you have to try to bring science down to the level of retardation your faith is on just so you feel like you can have a fair fight. The sad part is, if it's subconcious or not, you know having faith in your religion is an illogical position to hold. You keep your faith, I'll stick with the evidence.

The motivation to tell people about evolution has to do with the benefits knowing about this stuff would bring to people, on a large scale, if enough of them knew about it. It has to do with dropping the religious motivations for things like war. It shows us we're all equal, nobody is better or worse, because as a species, we are all the same. You asshats have somehow turned the theory around with eugenics and Hitler and Stalin and Mao... I swear the things your brains conceive... I guess if you can come up with and "believe" in any of those creation myths it's not a stretch to avoid all real knowledge about actual things... But it really is sad.

Many Scientists See God's Hand in Evolution
Printer-friendly version
Reports of the National Center for Science EducationTitle:
Many Scientists See God's Hand in Evolution


Author(s):
Larry Witham


Volume:
17


Issue:
6


Select Year:
1997


Date:
November–December


Page(s):
33


This version might differ slightly from the print publication.


A - While most US scientists think humans are simply smarter apes, at least 4 in 10 believe a creator "guided" evolution so that Homo sapiens are ruled by a soul or consciousness, a new survey shows. Scientists almost unanimously accept Darwinian evolution over millions of years as the source of human origins. But 40% of biologists, mathematicians, physicians, and astronomers include God in the process.

B - "I believe God could work through evolution," a South Carolina mathematician wrote in a marginal note on the survey "Bell shaped curves describe how characteristics are distributed.. . so I think that God uses what we perceive to be 'random processes.'" Despite such affirmations, however, 55% of scientists hold a naturalistic and atheistic position on the origins of man, according to the random survey of 1000 persons listed in the 1995 American Men and Women of Science.

C - "I am surprised to find that so many are theistic evolutionists" Duncan Porter, a Virginia Tech botanist and Darwin scholar, said in an interview. "As an Episcopalian, I don't compartmentalize those things," he said of God and evolution, "I put them together in an overall view." Rick Potts, director of human origins at the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History, said it is not unusual to find religious beliefs in any community including scientists.

D - But "I'm happy to see that 55% are taking a naturalistic approach," he said. "Most anthropologists would draw the line heavily toward the naturalistic side. We want to explain our phenomenon without recourse to things we can't observe or measure." The survey, which had a 60% response rate, asked scientists the same Gallup Poll question posed to the public in 1982 and 1991. In the 1991 round, 40 percent of Americans said God "guided" evolution to create humans.

E - While this 40% is a middle ground of agreement between scientists and the public, there is a sharp polarization between the groups taking purely naturalistic or biblical views. While most scientists are atheistic about human origins, nearly half of Americans adhere to the biblical view that God created humans "pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10 000 years." Forty-six percent of Americans agreed with this view of human origins in the 1991 Gallup poll. Only 5 percent of the scientists agreed.

F - Because only a quarter to a third of Americans are Protestant evangelicals or fundamentalists, the 1991 Gallup Poll showed that many mainline Protestants, Catholics and Jews believe in a "last 10,000 years human creation." The 1991 poll also showed that college-educated Americans were far more likely to accept evolution, underscoring their closer affinity to the views of scientists.

G - The standard view in science is that modern-day Homo sapiens emerged 40,000 years ago and began to organize societies 10,000 years ago. The oldest humanlike ape is called Australopithecus, or "southern ape." It was found in Africa and is believed to date back 4 million years. Homo erectus developed 1.8 million years ago. Neanderthals roamed Europe and Asia beginning 100,000 years ago.

The survey was a separate but parallel study to one reported in Nature (1997 Apr 3; 386:435-6) in which 40 percent of the same scientists reported a belief in a God who answers prayers and in immortality. Both surveys were conducted by a reporter for the Washington Times and Edward J Larson, a historian of science at the University of Georgia. The report in Nature was based on a replication of a 1916 survey that scandalized Americans by finding that 45 percent of scientists were atheists and 15 percent were agnostics. Before the 1859 publication of Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species, scientists and the Western public agreed that God designed human life. Afterward, they became sharply divided.

The belief that God creates through evolution has been called "theistic evolution" though there are different views on how much God intervenes in the process. A physicist from New Mexico wrote on the survey that God created man "within the last 10,000 years, but the universe is billions of years old." Two biologists from Ohio refined the question about God and evolution. One said, "God created the universe and principles of energy and matter, which then guided subsequent evolution." The other said God did not guide the process "but did create the conditions that allowed the process to take place." "Creation science," most visible in school board debates and court rulings, is only one brand of creationism. It holds that the earth is about as young as human creation. But many Bible believers combine an ancient earth and some evolution with a recent human creation.

[This article appeared in the Washington Times on April 11, 1997, pA8. It is reprinted here with permission.]


First Mistake - You went and got a paper from 1997 - that's 12 years ago - to defend your position.

A - BUUUUUUUUUUUUUULLSHIT GC. You clearly misinterpret "include God in the process" as "Yep yes sir, that's mah Jebus!"... "include God in the process" could mean anything from "some uknown natural force we havn't recognized yet" - similar to Einsteins view, similar to a LOT of atheists I know, to "magic man in teh sky dun it!" like the 30% or so of Americans (mainly the South.. sorry for the generalization my atheist friends in the south, I know how you feel!)

B - Pwned.

C - "it is not unusual to find religious beliefs in any community including scientists." - Again, could mean anything...

D - "Most anthropologists would draw the line heavily toward the naturalistic side." - LMAO, Pwned again! Gee, I wonder why the scientists actually studying the origins of humans would be the ones most likely to lean "heavily toward the naturalistic side"...

E - Basically saying there is a huge gap in belief between the general public and the scientific community... GC, if your house was on fire, would you go call the baker? Howbout the nurse?... Or would you do the smart thing and call the firemen? Who do you think you should talk to about science... - that's what you're doing, you're house is burning away and you're getting the lawyer to come put the flames out when it's the firemen you need to be talking to.

F - Pfft! Dude, why did you post this? It's totally supporting my position!

G - Where the hell did you get those ''facts''...? Flawed big time.

...anyway, here's an updated survey of scientists who accept evolution;





http://www.polypterus.com/results.pdf



http://religion.ssrc.org/reforum/Gross_Simmons.pdf



http://religion.ssrc.org/reforum/Ecklund.pdf

Followed by a very easy to watch video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgyTVT3dqGY
 
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