An interesting concept for inline cooling

lazypothead420

Well-Known Member
I've been thinking how i can keep lights as cool as possible. What if you used a refrigerator such as the one listed below. Cut a hole in it and secure ur ducting to it, run the ducting to cooltubes and out of the carbon scrubber. Im sure i would act as an a/c for the room as well. I have a bit of concern regarding the gasses and such used to cool a fridge. Anyone know if this is possible and would it hurt the plants due to the gasses? Just a pipe dream but those can be the best!bongsmilie



http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=11154510
 

cowell

Well-Known Member
Hi. Good idea, I like people who think outside the box, but this wouldn't work for that.

A fridge doesn't produce cold air that fast, nor in that quantity.
Let's say you get your fridge nice and cold, and turn the fans on and it sucks that little cubic foot of air out.. now what?
Try an experiment. Take your fridge's freezer at home (way colder than a fridge) and leave the door open for a few minutes.. see anything happening? You should see condensation on the items in your freezer.. meaning that even though it's running to try and keep things cold, it can't keep up to the demand.. as it's not built for that.

Great thought though, but you would also need an air inlet to your fridge as they are air tight.. there's no way that it could cool that new air enough to make a difference.
 

cowell

Well-Known Member
oh and the gases are all contained in the cooling coils, so you wouldn't have to worry about that anyway unless you drilled through them.. but then the thing wouldn't work anyway.
 
Nice idea, BUT...
I wanna see someone grow in an actual working fridge.. Thats what I wanna see. seriously, someone do it!! Do it now! If no more than replacing the fridge light with a cfl lol.. come on dammit I wanna see it!
 

cowell

Well-Known Member
ok.. I just had an idea to improve upon your thought which might be plausible. Bear with me a moment and I'll explain what I'm suggesting.

If you had this fridge and cut 2 holes.. lets say one on each side of the fridge and ran your ducting for your lights out of one, then hook up your lights, then you inline fan, and close the circut by running it back into your fridge, you may be able to get it to work to some degree.

You don't need to scrub your lighting exhaust as there aren't any odors from lights, but if you circulated the air over them using the fridge to cool the air then it may remain at a lower constant temp than ambient air drawn over the lights. You could get away with a smaller inline fan and save $ that way too.

You won't need to worry about negitive pressure as it's a closed circut and the fan would just draw the air over it.. much the same as if you are in your car and you re-circulate the cold air by the air conditioner, it has to work less hard to keep the air cooler than if you had the window open running it on full blast.. (same sorta idea is what I'm getting at)

May actually work that way..
 
Hi. Good idea, I like people who think outside the box, but this wouldn't work for that.

A fridge doesn't produce cold air that fast, nor in that quantity.
Let's say you get your fridge nice and cold, and turn the fans on and it sucks that little cubic foot of air out.. now what?
Try an experiment. Take your fridge's freezer at home (way colder than a fridge) and leave the door open for a few minutes.. see anything happening? You should see condensation on the items in your freezer.. meaning that even though it's running to try and keep things cold, it can't keep up to the demand.. as it's not built for that.

Great thought though, but you would also need an air inlet to your fridge as they are air tight.. there's no way that it could cool that new air enough to make a difference.
exactly.. maybe a freezer would do better the way the OP is suggesting, but a fridge couldnt cool fast enough.. Unless maybe you grew IN the fridge like I said above lol. You could even cut out the divider between the freezer section and fridge sections and allow for alot more colder air to acces the entire inside of the fridge.. But the damn thing would constantly run.. Im sure it wouldnt be effecient but it would be hella cool to see.. Dammit someone do it lol.
 

lazypothead420

Well-Known Member
ok.. I just had an idea to improve upon your thought which might be plausible. Bear with me a moment and I'll explain what I'm suggesting.

If you had this fridge and cut 2 holes.. lets say one on each side of the fridge and ran your ducting for your lights out of one, then hook up your lights, then you inline fan, and close the circut by running it back into your fridge, you may be able to get it to work to some degree.

You don't need to scrub your lighting exhaust as there aren't any odors from lights, but if you circulated the air over them using the fridge to cool the air then it may remain at a lower constant temp than ambient air drawn over the lights. You could get away with a smaller inline fan and save $ that way too.

You won't need to worry about negitive pressure as it's a closed circut and the fan would just draw the air over it.. much the same as if you are in your car and you re-circulate the cold air by the air conditioner, it has to work less hard to keep the air cooler than if you had the window open running it on full blast.. (same sorta idea is what I'm getting at)

May actually work that way..
Good thinkin buddy! Sry bout the whole carbon scrubber thing, lil silly from the G13. I think this concept may actually work. Although take sum amount of research to figure out how big the fridge would have to be because if there isnt enough air it will make the fan and fridge run harder. If you figured out the perfect fridge size and fan cfm combo the limits are endless. Follow all this up with an air tight room with c02 and it would be perfect!

I was also thinking.. What if instead of constantly running, you hook it up to a temp controler and only have it turn on when needed. In the winter time i can see it getting too cold. With the controler it wouldnt even kick on unless it needs to.


Oh and one more thing, i was watching a video a lil while ago about a air cooler for inline systems and the guy said the air goin through the tube only have to be 10 degrees cool than the lights to sufficiently cool them.
 

cowell

Well-Known Member
really? the smallest AC I have seen still uses up around 800 Watts. There prolly are smaller but I just havent seen any. I need to research on how many watts a fridge uses.

I don't know that wattage of the appliance necissarily has an indication of the efficiency of the application in this case. When you alter it's intended purpose it really takes those factors out of the equation.

An air conditioner is designed to cool an area.. much like we refer to area when talking about wattage of light for a given area, BTU's are designed for a room's dimensions to be effective and not burn out the motor. The same would be the concern for the fridge, if used to control the heat from the lights in a closed setting, it may work, but it may be too much for the fridge to operate.

It would definitely be rated for less than 800watts regardless so I believe you are right there.. but the question in my mind then changes from can you do it, to would it be able to keep up with the demand on it without burning itself out from running constantly.

There are things you can do to improve efficiency, like running insulated ducting all the way around, and ensuring it's air tight, etc
 

cowell

Well-Known Member
Good thinkin buddy! Sry bout the whole carbon scrubber thing, lil silly from the G13. I think this concept may actually work. Although take sum amount of research to figure out how big the fridge would have to be because if there isnt enough air it will make the fan and fridge run harder. If you figured out the perfect fridge size and fan cfm combo the limits are endless. Follow all this up with an air tight room with c02 and it would be perfect!

I don't know that you would need co2 if the environment was working.

I was also thinking.. What if instead of constantly running, you hook it up to a temp controler and only have it turn on when needed. In the winter time i can see it getting too cold. With the controler it wouldnt even kick on unless it needs to.

Well the fridge would have the temp contro in it.. you would just have to figure out what setting gives you the ideal temp.. trial and error.

Oh and one more thing, i was watching a video a lil while ago about a air cooler for inline systems and the guy said the air goin through the tube only have to be 10 degrees cool than the lights to sufficiently cool them.


To find out if it would work, what size lights are you running.. may make a big deal in what I'm thinking too.. a 400 watter may work just fine in that set up that I was trying to explain..
I was originally trying to picture it running my 2 1000 watters.. and I immediately thought "good idea on the surface.. but wouldn't work as it would have to work too hard to keep up"..

then I got thinking about it a little and thought.. "well if you contain the unit to a closed cycle .. maybe"

So what size light you plan on using with it?

the inline cooler you are talking about.. is it like an oil cooler set up? If so, I've seen them, and they work, but you need a steady supply of cold water hooked up..I honestly don't know what temp the air needs to be to work effectively.. if it's only 10 degrees cooler, you may be ok..

I know guys (myself included) use ambient air from outside their rooms and exhaust outside and seem to work fine so no reason as long as you keep everything as compact as possible that it couldn't be effective as well.. and possibly eliminate the need to run another vent outside your room
.
You can pick those fridges up for like $50 bucks used, or at a scratch and dent place new for fairly cheap..

I think I'm entrigued.. I'm subscribing and will work on the idea with you and hopefully some others that are already putting in their constructive help.. maybe you can take our ideas and the ideas of others and come up with a system that works cat's ass may even rethink my set up to eliminate outside variables. If you control the temp of the air in your lights, you can more accurately control your temps in the room too. Lower your lights and get denser buds without worry about the heat from the light burning your plants.
 

IAm5toned

Well-Known Member
its not about watts, its about efficiency.... efficiently offsetting the heat created by the lamp wattage by using the refrigerater.
i think the lamp will win everytime, as it uses more wattage to create heat more efficiently than the fridge uses wattage to create cold efficiently...
power in must = power out. whether its heat, electricity, momentum, whatever.. physics is physics, and math doesnt lie....

the general rule of thumb is that for every 1kw (1000 watts) of hid lighting, 3500btu's are created. using this basic rule 400w would equate to 1400 btu's.

it would take approximately 410.34 watts of cooling power to remove 1400 btu's... you can see how it would actually take MORE power to cool the heat created than was used to create the heat to begin with. not very efficient at all!

edit/ps/afterthoughts:
and considering air is the only means of convection (and air is a terrible conductor of heat) i think this is a lost cause for any lamp wattage over 250w... and since your fridge is controlled by thermostat, it will constantly run trying to cool itself down to 36 degrees... 24/7 compressor running
 

cowell

Well-Known Member
I don't know that wattage of the appliance necissarily has an indication of the efficiency of the application in this case. When you alter it's intended purpose it really takes those factors out of the equation....
Thank god I was right about that now that the electrician has come on board!!!!!!

I was actually just going to PM you this link to get your input on it..

its not about watts, its about efficiency.... efficiently offsetting the heat created by the lamp wattage by using the refrigerater.
i think the lamp will win everytime, as it uses more wattage to create heat more efficiently than the fridge uses wattage to create cold efficiently...
power in must = power out. whether its heat, electricity, momentum, whatever.. physics is physics, and math doesnt lie....

the general rule of thumb is that for every 1kw (1000 watts) of hid lighting, 3500btu's are created. using this basic rule 400w would equate to 1400 btu's.

it would take approximately 410.34 watts of cooling power to remove 1400 btu's... you can see how it would actually take MORE power to cool the heat created than was used to create the heat to begin with. not very efficient at all!
If he were to use ambient air it would effectively cool his lights, right?
So if he were running a closed circut using the fridge to keep it cooler, would it still not be better than the air from a different room, provided that room itself wasn't air conditioned?

And 400 Watts is assuming that it's running "as a fridge" not as an air conditioner wouldn't it be? So it may actually tax the system harder than that?

Would he be better running an air conditioner in a box (vented outside the grow room of course) and still maintain the same kind of circulation type system?

(this guy knows his shit, sorry for taking over your thread asking him ?'s)
 

lazypothead420

Well-Known Member
I cant seem to find the link to the water cooled air cooler im talking about. But anyways i was gonna use 2 600's but i'd rather use 2 1000's. Haha ask away man, ur getting my questions answered too! The only reason im trying to figure this out is because the room is only 5'5 high. Although it will be 6'w x 8'l. I sill have some concern to keeping the lights as cool as possible so i can keep them closer to the plants and also not worry about height restrictions as much.
 

Roland

Active Member
Both AC and refrigerators work by ... REMOVING heat ... where does the " removed " heat go ...... refrigerators put it back in the room .... Ac is set up to send the heat .. OUTSIDE ...... believe me bro' ... AC is set up for space cooling ... refigerators are made to remove heat from a sealed closed box

Both work by blowing air across and freon filled coil
 

IAm5toned

Well-Known Member
i saw the heat exchanger lazypothead was talking about. its pretty intriguing, but the trade off is you have to have a constant supply of RUNNING water to make it work... so your either flushing water down the drain straight from the tap or your using electricity to pump the water... and then theres the problem of cooling the water once its out of the exchanger and back in the resevoir... the resevoir would have to be huge for room temp to be able to cool the hot water coming from the exchange unit fast enough to keep it cool for 12/12 or 18/6 operation... im sure theres some dwc and ebb and flow guys out there that understand what im talking about

i think the problem to overcome with this design is how to remove heat from a closed loop system without consuming watts in the process. i think a fridge would be a great gro cab, the co2 potential would be awesome with a hermitaclly sealed door... but its going to be hard to get HID lighting inside the fridge without using a cool tube. and theres also the problem of condensation, your going to be watering the plant obviously, and the plant is going to breath and release water vapor ( i forget the botanical term forgive me im stoned).. so theres going to have to be a way to exhaust the system periodically... which means lots of controls and automation. i think the whole idea is possible, but going to be very challenging engineering wise
 

cowell

Well-Known Member
...An air conditioner is designed to cool an area.. much like we refer to area when talking about wattage of light for a given area, BTU's (size wize) are designed for a room's dimensions to be effective and not burn out the motor (10,000 btu's will cool a room 10X10 for example). The same would be the concern for the fridge, if used to control the heat from the lights in a closed setting, it may work, but it may be too much for the fridge to operate. QUOTE]

No one's said any different. and the context for discussion is running either unit outside of your growroom.. so it may effect the ambient temperature of the other room.. but has no impact on the temp inside his room.
And both actually work by pullin heat outside of their area whether it's a room that's 8X8 or a "room" that's 1X1 (as in the case of the fridge).. most air conditioners have to be vented outside as well.

I believe you, that's a good point to make again though.

Both AC and refrigerators work by ... REMOVING heat ... where does the " removed " heat go ...... refrigerators put it back in the room .... Ac is set up to send the heat .. OUTSIDE ...... believe me bro' ... AC is set up for space cooling ... refigerators are made to remove heat from a sealed closed box

Both work by blowing air across and freon filled coil


I cant seem to find the link to the water cooled air cooler im talking about. But anyways i was gonna use 2 600's but i'd rather use 2 1000's. Haha ask away man, ur getting my questions answered too! The only reason im trying to figure this out is because the room is only 5'5 high. Although it will be 6'w x 8'l. I sill have some concern to keeping the lights as cool as possible so i can keep them closer to the plants and also not worry about height restrictions as much.
What's the cost on one of those? They may actually be the best alternative if you're using 600's. You'd need to run a res chiller though for sure.. so I think that you want to look at the overall cost of pumps and chiller and inline cooler.. etc.
I still am not sure that the fridge would be big enough to be effective for your size of lighting.. but possibly would work for a smaller light.


EDIT: what size lights are the inline coolers rated for? do you know off the top of your head?
 

IAm5toned

Well-Known Member
we need someone thats good with thermodynamics in here..... any ex navy guys out there? the kind that rode in boats not ships ;)
the navy has done some miraculous things with using h20 convection currents to cool stuff down... like how to cool the heat generated by a nuclear reactor to seawater temperature without using a single pump in the process. makes the boats quieter.
 

IAm5toned

Well-Known Member
also sorry to thread jack but i found this in another thread about a water chilled cool tube fixture- note the fact about having to use a 55 GAL DRUM to have a big enough heat exchanger to remove the heat outside the grow room... and since this system uses water in place of air inside the cooltube its a much more efficient design than the exchanger for just the ductwork
Al B Fuct originally wrote the right up:

The Hydroflector Hybrid is a clever but simple design, consisting of twenty different parts working together to forever change the way you cool your garden. With minimal effort, it can be retrofitted to be used in almost any existing hood already designed for 8” air cooling, or consumers can purchase the unit already installed in a customized hood.​

Designed to remove unwanted bulb-heat, the unique liquid-cooled design is not only incredibly effective, but completely safe when installed per the manufacturer’s instructions. The efficiency of the design allows you to install more lights per square foot, and decrease the distance between your lights and your plant canopy. Both result more lumens absorbed by your plants, which in turn results in greater garden yields.​

The cooler the water you have pumped through the unit, the closer you can place your lights to your plants; it’s completely up to you. In one of our lab tests, we were able to move two 1000W lights to within 5” of the plant canopy. This was using only a 55 gallon reservoir chilled to 65 degrees F with a ¼ HP chiller.
Another added benefit is the decrease you’ll see in your electric bill, for several reasons:​

Chiller Downtime
While a ¼ HP chiller draws about the same amount of power as a typical 8” fan (3.6A for the chiller vs. 3.8A for the fan), the fan runs continuously while the chiller’s compressor only comes on periodically. Every minute the chiller’s compressor doesn’t run is a minute you’d have been paying for the fan to run.​

No Bulb Heat
After a few hours running, the glass on the bottom of a typical 1000W air-cooled set up is usually between 120 and 130 degrees F. With the Hydroflector Hybrid, after 8 hours of running continuously with water chilled to 65 degrees F, the inner surface of the glass won’t exceed 80 degrees F. Imagine the savings with your air conditioner not having to work so hard to cool your garden room. Also, as most know, the better the temperature inside your garden room is controlled, the better the crop yield in both quality and quantity.​

Lumens Efficiency
For every inch that the bulb is removed from your plants, the lumens output decreases dramatically. Under the right conditions, using the Hydroflector Hybrid, you can move your lights so much closer to your plants that you can switch to 600W lights and achieve the same results.
What is most unique about the Hydroflector Hybrid is it’s flexibility. It can be water-cooled, air-cooled, or both at once and there is quite literally nothing else like it in the world. The primary cooling function of the HH is driven by chilled water piped to and through the unit using ½” i.d. flexible heavy-duty tubing. The air cooling was included for use under extreme conditions (small enclosures, grow chambers, big operations, etc.) and should rarely be necessary. Air cooling can be accomplished by ducting air through a 4 ½” center tube that houses our patented, polished aluminum, one of a kind socket bracket assembly. The socket assembly bracket is designed so all the wiring connections are inside the housing protecting this connection from UV damage. The bracket also is fully adjustable so that you can center any bulb size within the unit.​

The center tube is positioned inside of a larger tube, both borosilicate glass, with water running between the tubes. The ends of the tubes are held together with rubber gaskets and ABS plastic end caps. The unique custom made gaskets are wedge shaped, and wrap around the edge of the glass giving it a three sided seal that locks the gasket into the end cap. The pressure that is needed to pull the end cap in place is supplied by the flange collar that clamps on the outer tube, which has an EPDM liner to ensure a good grip on the glass. The end cap is held to the flange collar by six 1” stainless steel ¼ x 20 bolts, washers, and nuts. The flange collar is designed for the nuts to recess into it, so there is no need to use a wrench for these, thereby easing assembly. The plastic parts are made with rugged abs plastic with the highest recommended amount of UV inhibitor, ensuring years of problem free operation. There are also 4” duct covers to use when air-cooling is not needed. The water nozzles, which are black nylon, are ½” OD to ¼” NPT threads and can easily be swapped out if a different tubing size is used. The lamp cord is brought into the unit through the end cap and secured with a watertight connector.
The unit completely assembled is very water resistant from the outside (protecting your lights from overspray during watering), and offers a multitude other safety measures as well. In the highly unlikely event of gasket leakage, the drain feature on the end cap will ensure that no water ever touches the bulb. However, because the impossible is sometimes possible, we also recommend that you use a GFCI plug, breaker, or interrupter that plugs into the wall inline with your ballast power cord. If the unit isn’t assembled properly and water does somehow come into contact with the electricity, the GFCI unit will cut power immediately. The GFCI can be purchased through Liquid Lumens, as can a flow meter that can also be plugged inline with your ballast cord. The flow meter will cut power to your system in case of pump failure.​

By far the greatest accomplishment of the Hydroflector Hybrid is that you have choices. You can decide which reflector to use. You can decide on how many lights you want and not be limited by the heat they produce. You also have a choice with the way you cool the unit, water, air or both. Your choices in means to cool your water are nearly limitless as well; the simplest solution is a chiller and a small reservoir, but it can also be done with just a large reservoir buried in the ground to take advantage of the cooler earth. The water can also be piped outside to a radiator (heat exchanger) and cooled with night air. Whichever you choose you will be impressed with the cooling capabilities.​
 
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