Could Ron Paul really abolish the IRS?

CannaBoss

Well-Known Member
One of the reasons Ron Paul is gaining such enthusiastic support is that he is the only major party candidate calling for significant change. Besides withdrawing from Iraq, instituting a more sensible foreign policy, and reinstating our fundamental Constitutional freedoms, Ron Paul is also calling for substantial reductions in federal spending, enough to eventually end the income tax and abolish the Internal Revenue Service.

But how realistic is that goal? How would the government be able to operate without income taxes? Ron Paul points out that the federal government did just fine for the first 137 years of its existence without the income tax, which wasn't enacted until 1913. But federal spending has gone up a lot since then, so where would the reductions come from?

Ron Paul has not yet published a detailed plan, but has stated several ideas in the debates and other speeches. Withdrawing US forces from Iraq and other countries around the world would save close to $200 billion per year. Closing down the departments of Education ($56B), Energy ($23B), and Homeland Security ($32B), and ending foreign aid ($26B), could save well more than $100 billion annually. In his speech announcing his presidential bid, Ron Paul said that no real fiscal conservative could doubt that federal spending could be reduced by at least 25 percent, so expect further across-the-board budget cuts.

We may have to wait for specific proposals, but a few key facts are worth noting. In Fiscal Year 2007, individual income taxes amounted to $1.17 trillion, just 42% of the total federal outlays of $2.78 trillion. Abolishing the individual income tax would not destroy the federal government, it would only force a reduction in spending levels back to FY1997, hardly the era of small government, when the total federal budget was $1.60 trillion. In other words, we could have ALREADY abolished the income tax, if Congress and the President hadn't increased spending by 74 percent in the past ten years.

Of course, the preceding argument ignores the deficit, projected at $240 billion for FY2007. Without the individual income tax, total federal receipts would have been $1.37 trillion, requiring a reduction in spending back to FY1992 levels to balance the budget, but again, hardly the days of the robber barons and widespread starvation. Americans concerned about Social Security or Medicare payments being adversely affected by the elimination of the income tax needn't worry -- both programs are funded by FICA payroll taxes, not by federal income taxes.

Another objection often raised is the idea that only a portion of the federal budget ($854 billion in FY2007) consists of "discretionary spending," while the rest is "mandatory." These terms and the amounts are not set in stone, however, and are simply the results of existing federal law. Congress can change those laws at any time, and redefine what is "discretionary" and what is "mandatory."

Where does the rest of the federal government's revenue come from? For FY2007, corporate income taxes amounted to $342 billion, payroll (FICA) taxes brought in $873 billion, federal excise taxes totaled $56 billion, and $99 billion was labeled "other" -- consisting of estate and gift taxes ($25B), customs duties and fees ($27B), Federal Reserve deposits ($33B), and miscellaneous ($14B). Even without the individual income tax, the federal government's revenue would still be enormous.

Would Congress go along with Ron Paul's plans to cut spending significantly? If Ron Paul is elected President in 2008, it will be a clear signal that the American people want dramatic changes, including substantial tax and spending cuts. Since the primary objective of most politicians is to stay in office, those who are most adept at judging the public mood shouldn't take too long to figure that out. And the changes don't need to be pushed through in the first 100 days, or even the first year.

Simply by holding the line on spending, President Paul could gradually eliminate the income tax while in office. Federal receipts from sources other than individual income taxes have gone up by 44 percent in the past eight years. A similar increase over two terms of the Paul Administration, coupled with the savings from a non-interventionist foreign policy, could be enough to free Americans from the income tax forever, and secure Ron Paul's place in history.
 

SEganja

Active Member
He definatly could if everything you say is correct. I am enthusiastic about most of his proposed cuts but I still think some of the departments should stay such as education.

I know my first presidential vote will be for ron paul...well primary at least.
 

CannaBoss

Well-Known Member
Ron Paul doesn't believe the Federal Government should control how we educate our children, I don't either. why the need for more beaurocracy?
cutting the department doesn't mean cutting education, it means more local control of the system.
 

SylvanElf

Well-Known Member
Ron Paul doesn't believe the Federal Government should control how we educate our children, I don't either. why the need for more beaurocracy?
cutting the department doesn't mean cutting education, it means more local control of the system.
A good point. Enjoyed your first post too, well done. :clap:
 

medicineman

New Member
Here in Nevada we enjoy no state income tax, the gambling tax offsets the loss, however, if our state was to lose federal funding for our schools, I'm pretty sure there would be a huge state income tax instituted. In Las Vegas alone there are 3500-5000 people a month moving here, we build 8-12 new schools every year, where would the money for that come from, Our property tax would double or tripple, fuck that. We need federal assistance with our schools. I realize that our congressmen do not spend wisely and they are all looking for pork, but the federal income tax is the fairest way to fund the countries programs. A flat tax would only benefit the wealthy. A federal sales tax would also benefit the wealthy. The only fair tax is a step tax with the wealthiest paying the highest portion, like it was before the Bush tax cuts.
 

iblazethatkush

Well-Known Member
No he would be assasinated. But damnit we should try anyways. And don't pay your taxes. There's no law that you have to. The Federal income tax is an illegal tax to pay for the illegal inflation tax. It's all a trap that they have us fooled into accepting. Fuck the IRS, I'll never pay again
 

SylvanElf

Well-Known Member
Here in Nevada we enjoy no state income tax, the gambling tax offsets the loss, however, if our state was to lose federal funding for our schools, I'm pretty sure there would be a huge state income tax instituted. In Las Vegas alone there are 3500-5000 people a month moving here, we build 8-12 new schools every year, where would the money for that come from, Our property tax would double or tripple, fuck that. We need federal assistance with our schools. I realize that our congressmen do not spend wisely and they are all looking for pork, but the federal income tax is the fairest way to fund the countries programs. A flat tax would only benefit the wealthy. A federal sales tax would also benefit the wealthy. The only fair tax is a step tax with the wealthiest paying the highest portion, like it was before the Bush tax cuts.
Give me a break Med, why do you feel that you are entitled to my tax money becasue your state cannot run itself in proper business fashion, e.g., without a deficit.

You only get more of what you subsidize. Your state has no incentive to solve the problem because the federal government has made it fiscally hard to do so. I guarantee you that citizens in your state would find a solution to your education problem and voice that desire to your local government if the federal government got out of the eduction system like they should.

And besides, it not in the Constitiution that they should be doing it anyway!
 

MagusALL

Well-Known Member
for real guy, pay your state and local tax and save on the federal tax. since you elect your local and state officials, youd have to pick someone that wont put you in a deficit or over budget. but thats the states problem and not a federal right or obligation. basically its just a way for them to collect funds and do next to nothing with them besides line their own pockets. its funny how people think the income tax pays for roads, military, education, the street lights, yet it does none of these things. and yes, an income tax is unconstitutional. it is an unapportioned tax which is not distributed equally and therefore unconstitutional. Ron Paul is all about the CONSTITUTION!!! You remember, that long piece of paper written by the guys who created America? Yeah, those first ten amendments are called the Bill of Rights, remember those from elementary school? I bet not many people can think of half of them, let alone all the other amendments and rights and privledges the constitution affords us Americans.
He is brilliant and knows what is going on in this country. He isnt a huffing puffing politician, he just happens to be a politician who would build this country up instead of tear it down. the others are too concerned with Party issues and winning the election, Dr. Ron Paul is concerned with the issues in America, not in Hillary or Obama. He isnt concerned with Mitt or Rudy or Fuckabee, hes concerned with YOU!!! He is concerned with the 50 United States of America. This by the way is the original intent of our forefathers, a weak federal governement and a strong local and state government with most laws being made by the states. sorry if im rambling but the first step peeps is to register republican. i know its hard since you want to say no, im a cool democrat. however, they are all the same in todays government. traditionally however republican is where you want to be. Dr. Paul is by far the most democratic republican out there. Hillary is a damn republican in a not so subtle disguise. shes just a politician. tells you what she thinks you want to hear and smears her competition. and then says sorry after it and blames it on her "people." please. what kind of "leader" cant lead their staff let alone a nation? RON PAUL 2008 dot COM. youtube it, google him, spread the word. if everyone gets five people to vote it would be huge, and then they continue this trend and we, the people, make changes through OUR elected leaders. BTW I will go crazy if Dr. Paul doesnt get elected, and may just move out of the country.
 

MagusALL

Well-Known Member
Here in Nevada we enjoy no state income tax, the gambling tax offsets the loss, however, if our state was to lose federal funding for our schools, I'm pretty sure there would be a huge state income tax instituted. In Las Vegas alone there are 3500-5000 people a month moving here, we build 8-12 new schools every year, where would the money for that come from, Our property tax would double or tripple, fuck that. We need federal assistance with our schools. I realize that our congressmen do not spend wisely and they are all looking for pork, but the federal income tax is the fairest way to fund the countries programs. A flat tax would only benefit the wealthy. A federal sales tax would also benefit the wealthy. The only fair tax is a step tax with the wealthiest paying the highest portion, like it was before the Bush tax cuts.
flat tax does nothing either. the income tax doesnt work no matter how it is given, and it is unconstitutional. its meant for those who make profits, such as those who own a company. those who have employees and pay them less than what they make for the company. those who earn a wage arent making profits as their wage is AN EQUAL TRADE of labor for funds. please read the constitution. its all there. wonder why the government run Dept of Education doesnt make that part of our school programs. our basic rights as Americans. that would not be good for them would it? why do we always vote for the richest people who are nothing like us, the people? and they are not accountable for anything they do. its absurd.
 

iblazethatkush

Well-Known Member
for real guy, pay your state and local tax and save on the federal tax. since you elect your local and state officials, youd have to pick someone that wont put you in a deficit or over budget. but thats the states problem and not a federal right or obligation. basically its just a way for them to collect funds and do next to nothing with them besides line their own pockets. its funny how people think the income tax pays for roads, military, education, the street lights, yet it does none of these things. and yes, an income tax is unconstitutional. it is an unapportioned tax which is not distributed equally and therefore unconstitutional. Ron Paul is all about the CONSTITUTION!!! You remember, that long piece of paper written by the guys who created America? Yeah, those first ten amendments are called the Bill of Rights, remember those from elementary school? I bet not many people can think of half of them, let alone all the other amendments and rights and privledges the constitution affords us Americans.
He is brilliant and knows what is going on in this country. He isnt a huffing puffing politician, he just happens to be a politician who would build this country up instead of tear it down. the others are too concerned with Party issues and winning the election, Dr. Ron Paul is concerned with the issues in America, not in Hillary or Obama. He isnt concerned with Mitt or Rudy or Fuckabee, hes concerned with YOU!!! He is concerned with the 50 United States of America. This by the way is the original intent of our forefathers, a weak federal governement and a strong local and state government with most laws being made by the states. sorry if im rambling but the first step peeps is to register republican. i know its hard since you want to say no, im a cool democrat. however, they are all the same in todays government. traditionally however republican is where you want to be. Dr. Paul is by far the most democratic republican out there. Hillary is a damn republican in a not so subtle disguise. shes just a politician. tells you what she thinks you want to hear and smears her competition. and then says sorry after it and blames it on her "people." please. what kind of "leader" cant lead their staff let alone a nation? RON PAUL 2008 dot COM. youtube it, google him, spread the word. if everyone gets five people to vote it would be huge, and then they continue this trend and we, the people, make changes through OUR elected leaders. BTW I will go crazy if Dr. Paul doesnt get elected, and may just move out of the country.
Well said Magus. I might have to come with you if Dr. Paul doesn't win.:blsmoke:
 

medicineman

New Member
No he would be assasinated. But damnit we should try anyways. And don't pay your taxes. There's no law that you have to. The Federal income tax is an illegal tax to pay for the illegal inflation tax. It's all a trap that they have us fooled into accepting. Fuck the IRS, I'll never pay again
If you have ever filed, you are fucked. I didn't pay for 7 years but when I finally filed they wanted to know what I'd been doing for 7 years. Since I didn't have any 1099s, or other income to show, I got away with it. If you work for a paycheck, be prepared for a knock on your door. PS, don't ask what I was doing for 7 years. If I didn't have to tell the government, I'm sure as hell not going to give it up on this site.
 

ViRedd

New Member
Magus sez ...

"those who earn a wage arent making profits as their wage is AN EQUAL TRADE of labor for funds."

If the majority of Americans understood just this one point, the IRS and the slave tax known as the "income tax" would be history.

And why does Alan Keyes, Irwin Schiff AND Ron Paul call the income tax a "slave tax?" Because when you are taxed on your income, the government is taxing a portion of your labor. THEY determine what portion is taxed. In doing so ... the government OWNS that portion of your labor that is taxed. What shall we call a system, whereby another owns a portion of one's labor ... other than slavery?

Vi
 

medicineman

New Member
Magus sez ...

"those who earn a wage arent making profits as their wage is AN EQUAL TRADE of labor for funds."

If the majority of Americans understood just this one point, the IRS and the slave tax known as the "income tax" would be history.

And why does Alan Keyes, Irwin Schiff AND Ron Paul call the income tax a "slave tax?" Because when you are taxed on your income, the government is taxing a portion of your labor. THEY determine what portion is taxed. In doing so ... the government OWNS that portion of your labor that is taxed. What shall we call a system, whereby another owns a portion of one's labor ... other than slavery?

Vi
Well, you're only part slave then, or they would take all your wages. Taxes is the price you pay to live in a democracyt where all are not created equal. Some are born into wealth while others are born into poverty and all points in between. Besides if you've ever watched porn movies, you know that man was not created equal.
 

MagusALL

Well-Known Member
what was your point medicine man? do you like just paying for no reason or do you think slavery is a necessary function of government? we pay sales tax, gas tax, cigarette tax, all sorts of taxes that pay for everything involved in their operation. gas tax pays for anything to do with the highways. we dont have health care, the government doesnt do anything at all for us that our local taxes dont do already. they just pay their employees, rich white guys, who do nothing and work part time. all for huge salaries, getting their friends companies huge contracts. f senators and congressman are aware of the "slave tax" how can we ignore it?
 

medicineman

New Member
what was your point medicine man? do you like just paying for no reason or do you think slavery is a necessary function of government? we pay sales tax, gas tax, cigarette tax, all sorts of taxes that pay for everything involved in their operation. gas tax pays for anything to do with the highways. we dont have health care, the government doesnt do anything at all for us that our local taxes dont do already. they just pay their employees, rich white guys, who do nothing and work part time. all for huge salaries, getting their friends companies huge contracts. f senators and congressman are aware of the "slave tax" how can we ignore it?
My point was: In a society made up of un-equal chances for success, (wealth in this instance), a progressive income tax should go a long ways towards leveling the playing field. I'll agree that the idiots running our government have twisted the intent of a progressive tax from making the country a better place to live for all into a giveaway to the military-industrial complex. It is not the tax that is bad but the spending of the money that has been diverted into the pockets of the already wealthy. If the tax was used to better the country, Free health care, education for all, etc, and not used to fund the most agregious military and welfare to corporate giants, I'm pretty sure we could get a consensus for it. You'd never get the wealthy to sign on, but the proletariate would certainly benefit from a fair accounting of the tax structure.
 

MagusALL

Well-Known Member
well i think with the proper leadership we dont need the income tax at all to live in a very high quality of life. if the PEOPLE have the money, and not the governement, they can spend it on things that benefit both them, the economy and the lives of Americans. We dont need an income tax to function. it hasnt been needed for the majority of our countries history and we did just fine without it. they certainly are funneling the funds into the military-industrial complex, you got that right. every tax is corrupt and every fund is dwindled into nothing after the politicans touch it. and it hardly levels any playing field, when for example a family earning 30,000 a year gives up 10,000 in taxes which leaves them with 20,000, hardly enough to survive. a family which makes 3 million keeps 2 million, and they are not moving up or down on their quality of life, or methods of survival. this tax punishes the poor and middle class keeping them in a suspended state of wealth. or lack thereof. the tax benefits those who make the most money giving businesses, and individuals rich enough to own businesses the biggest tax breaks of any group, way more than the minimum wage workers that run them. there is something wrong here.
 

medicineman

New Member
well i think with the proper leadership we dont need the income tax at all to live in a very high quality of life. if the PEOPLE have the money, and not the governement, they can spend it on things that benefit both them, the economy and the lives of Americans. We dont need an income tax to function. it hasnt been needed for the majority of our countries history and we did just fine without it. they certainly are funneling the funds into the military-industrial complex, you got that right. every tax is corrupt and every fund is dwindled into nothing after the politicans touch it. and it hardly levels any playing field, when for example a family earning 30,000 a year gives up 10,000 in taxes which leaves them with 20,000, hardly enough to survive. a family which makes 3 million keeps 2 million, and they are not moving up or down on their quality of life, or methods of survival. this tax punishes the poor and middle class keeping them in a suspended state of wealth. or lack thereof. the tax benefits those who make the most money giving businesses, and individuals rich enough to own businesses the biggest tax breaks of any group, way more than the minimum wage workers that run them. there is something wrong here.
Yes there is. Especially since the bush tax cuts for the wealthy. I would welcome an overhaul of the tax structure that would really level the field. I don't have the plan, and don't know whether an income tax is the best way or not, but, most other taxes, flat, national sales tax etc. benefit the wealthy even more than the supposed progressive income tax. The problem as I see it is, the progression is not steep enough. The top 20 percent should pay more and the bottom 20 percent should pay none. Do you have a better plan?
 

MagusALL

Well-Known Member
we should all pay nothing and get to keep everything we earn. the economy will run itself and we dont need the government weakening the dollar. thats the only thing they do they inflate the money and take it from us so each year we earn less and less. destroy the federal reserve bank and kill off government agencies that have no right stealing our money. dept of ed, dept of health, dept of homeland security. they do nothing and cost billions. there are so many places where the problems cross over, it would take a huge overhaul to complete but it can be done. the people just have to be sick enough.
 

medicineman

New Member
we should all pay nothing and get to keep everything we earn. the economy will run itself and we dont need the government weakening the dollar. thats the only thing they do they inflate the money and take it from us so each year we earn less and less. destroy the federal reserve bank and kill off government agencies that have no right stealing our money. dept of ed, dept of health, dept of homeland security. they do nothing and cost billions. there are so many places where the problems cross over, it would take a huge overhaul to complete but it can be done. the people just have to be sick enough.
Well, untill they get health care figured out so everyone can have it, like it is a right and not a priveledge, I'll have to relate to some form of taxation. Why should only the wealthy be entitled to sound health care. Is it not a god given right to be healthy. A poor person without medical coverage is much more likely to die from a disease than a rich person. Why should your life expectancy be based on income? Although I have adequate health coverage, I realize that there are millions who don't. I believe that every citizen should be entitled to at least as good of health coverage as I have and probably even better. People living on the edge of society don't have a chance of ever getting together enough money to pay for their health care. As a society, we are morally obligated to provide this care to those that cannot afford it. Those that are unwilling to sacrifice from their position of wealth and influence are the real traitors in the society. Giving is what makes a person whole.
 
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