I read about the first 15 pages and then skipped around till the end (sorry, but this f*#@er is loooong), and just want to say I love and appreciate the opening post and especially enjoyed the contributions of morgantaler (?) and crackerjax....right on.
just a few quick comments....I no longer debate about religion, when you are trying to reason w someone who bases their perspective solely on myth, it is, as Stonymcfried said, mentally exhausting. Simply, some people get it, some people don't. But I don't think it's a matter of convincing or persuasion (as is it is for religious institutions trying to gain converts in order to strengthen their establishment), I think it is a matter of personal experience and conscientiousness that either will or will not lend itself to that enlightenment and freedom of thought.
In the beg. of the thread, the relationship (or lack thereof) between religion and enlightenment was briefly discussed and I just want to add that yes--enlightenment is absolutely freedom from religion (like dude said). Historically speaking the Period of Enlightenment is defined by HUMAN accomplishment and capacity--it was a celebration of MAN (generically speaking, ahem), and fostered a huge break from the est. church, (the protestant reformation) as well as ideas of democracy & a separation of church and state--meaning no man should be governed in any way based upon another mans fairytale ideas (this, credited mainly to jefferson & franklin-- both enlightenment thinkers, and widely thought to be atheists.)
Anyway, one of my favorite things you pointed out, Padawanbater, was the fact that THIS IS IT!! Not only does that simple reality clarify that all the centuries of brutal violence and horrific fates (witch hunts, crusades, inquisition, manifest destiny etc), all in the name of religion were in vain and just barbaric, not to mention all the other energy (and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$) spent on it being, well, in the end, a pretty lousy investment
But to understand that THIS IS IT is also profound in that, simply,,,,
WE ARE HERE. As a true miracle of nature (not god in the sky), ...and that is pretty amazing itself. And in not even the blink of times eye we will be gone. We are all sharing a very brief moment together. And when it's gone, it's gone for all of us, and it's gone forever...and what are we doing with it? (worshipping god? killing for god? arguing about god? judging and alienating others for god?--not me)
How can love of a god, any god, lend itself to hatred and violence toward fellow man, and oftentimes a disregard to nature....
It's all just so antithetical to any god i'd want to blindly worship anyway.
Now, some eastern philosophies are a different story--for inner spirituality (whatever that really even is) and a connection to nature and calmness (that's what i dig--i definitely feel most "spiritual" in nature)
I did not originally intend to type this long....
Wonderful thread. thanks.
1 tim 3:16 