NorthwestBuds
Well-Known Member
Where did you get that idea? Do you have ANY proof of that?
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
People already have a right to access healthcare. What they don't have and SHOULDN'T HAVE is a right to other people subsidizing them.
What you seem to be advocating is granting Government a "right" to make person A pay for person B, and make anybody that objects into a criminal.
P
PadawanBater
Guest
I was thinking about this a bit earlier...
What would be the best option for the medical field? I hear a lot of people say that doctors would lose their wages, similar to what happened with the airlines, which makes sense. But what about the technology? It seems reasonable to me that if more people had access to medical technology and medical coverage, more people would use it and know about it.
How do breakthroughs happen? Techologies? Cures? Is it purely through competition? Is competition the best solution to increasing the efficiency and decreasing the cost of health care?
The current system has a big gaping hole in it's logic that's been bothering me since I discovered it; it pays to keep people sick. That one problem alone calls for reform. That is unacceptable to me. Profits derived from keeping people sick don't give the company providing the care any encentive to cure anything, and in some cases, actual cures that could be provided that cost a fraction of the price the drugs pushed by the pharm companies do are stopped in their tracks because they threaten profits. Check the documentary "Marijuana Cures Cancer" or something along those lines, I've seen it posted on the forum before, perfect example. Most of us know that's one of the main issues keeping Marijuana illegal. Pharm companies can't market MaryJane so they have absolutely no encentive to make it legal and every reason to lobby against it, as it's a competetor.
What would be the best option for the medical field? I hear a lot of people say that doctors would lose their wages, similar to what happened with the airlines, which makes sense. But what about the technology? It seems reasonable to me that if more people had access to medical technology and medical coverage, more people would use it and know about it.
How do breakthroughs happen? Techologies? Cures? Is it purely through competition? Is competition the best solution to increasing the efficiency and decreasing the cost of health care?
The current system has a big gaping hole in it's logic that's been bothering me since I discovered it; it pays to keep people sick. That one problem alone calls for reform. That is unacceptable to me. Profits derived from keeping people sick don't give the company providing the care any encentive to cure anything, and in some cases, actual cures that could be provided that cost a fraction of the price the drugs pushed by the pharm companies do are stopped in their tracks because they threaten profits. Check the documentary "Marijuana Cures Cancer" or something along those lines, I've seen it posted on the forum before, perfect example. Most of us know that's one of the main issues keeping Marijuana illegal. Pharm companies can't market MaryJane so they have absolutely no encentive to make it legal and every reason to lobby against it, as it's a competetor.
lopezri
Well-Known Member
I'm still wondering if this Poll Question will ever be ammended to get an accurate poll. The majority of people should be answering "Approve" on this poll question because the MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WANT HEALTHCARE REFORM!! We just all disagree on what kind of reform needs to take place.
Some people think providing healthcare to every single person in the U.S. is the answer. Others think some sort of tort reform. Still others think the FDA should be more open to new drugs, alternative medicine, pharmaceutical company cost control, etc. Why is some of this stuff missing from this bill? And who cares if we approve or disapprove for reform! The question HAS to be "Do you approve THIS healthcare reform bill"?
Some people think providing healthcare to every single person in the U.S. is the answer. Others think some sort of tort reform. Still others think the FDA should be more open to new drugs, alternative medicine, pharmaceutical company cost control, etc. Why is some of this stuff missing from this bill? And who cares if we approve or disapprove for reform! The question HAS to be "Do you approve THIS healthcare reform bill"?
Good point lopezri.
IMO we need to let the market work.
To that end we need to get rid of HMO's.
We need:
Health savings accounts (tax deductable contributions, and right off all medical expences)
High deductable long term major medical insurance (like term life insurance for major things cancer and the like)
Tax deductions for Pro bono work (the poor could get free care)
This would let prices come down,
get functionaries out of the way,
Cut taxes and
increase savings rates in the US.
and no one would have to have a gun pointed at them
Face jail time or crippling fines.
No new government agencies to run it.
This is infact Ron Pauls health care bill.
its 14 pages not 1990 pages of BS.
IMO we need to let the market work.
To that end we need to get rid of HMO's.
We need:
Health savings accounts (tax deductable contributions, and right off all medical expences)
High deductable long term major medical insurance (like term life insurance for major things cancer and the like)
Tax deductions for Pro bono work (the poor could get free care)
This would let prices come down,
get functionaries out of the way,
Cut taxes and
increase savings rates in the US.
and no one would have to have a gun pointed at them
Face jail time or crippling fines.
No new government agencies to run it.
This is infact Ron Pauls health care bill.
its 14 pages not 1990 pages of BS.
jeff f
New Member
absolutely competition is the answer. adn it doesnt pay to keep people sick. it pays to make them better. hospital A has an average stay of 2 days for a baby delivery. hosp B has a 5 day stay. all other comparisons are relatively equal between the 2. you have to pay extra for the extra care for 3 days in hosp B. where are you taking your knocked up wife to get a delivery if you have to pay for it?
hosp A has a 97% success rate for open heart surgury hosp B has 78%. where you want the ambulance to drop you off? if hosp B get sno patients for babies and heart surgury they have 2 solutions. fix whats wrong or close those clinics. if they want to stay in business they fix it as most business would.
problem is, you dont pay for your service in either scenario in the US with few exceptions. reason the govt has these stupid programs, medicaide and medicare, that pays docs X amount for X procedure even if the procedure cost X plus 42%. that other 42% comes out of the insurance of someone elses pockets. it has to be made up somewhere.
so if you dont have insurance the procedure pays $100. if you have insurance the procedure pays 142 bucks plus some extra to cover the money they lost on the other patient so they can break even. if a business gives away services they cease to exist. the govt is the primary reason the system is broke. and that applies to meicare/aid, the lawyers getting rich on lawsuits and just a lot of stupid govt enforced red tape. let the hosp/doctors/etc.
compete on the open market. competition works everytime its tried. with this current bill, all hospitals will become mediocre to horrible because there will be no competition. they will figure a workload per hospital and you will have to be seen at the hospital they tell you to go to. dont be mistaken for one minute you will be able to pick where you go. you WILL be assigned. it works sort of like when you buy a new car and it breaks. you have to return it to the dealer you purchased it from if you live within 500,000 miles of it. it doesnt matter what the fix rate at a particular garage is, what the cost is, that there is a closer dealer, you take it to the only place THEY let you. UNLESS, you want to pay for it out of your pocket. then you take it where you want.
are ya feelin me yet
jeffchr
Well-Known Member
the uk system is single payer and nothing at all like anything that will pass in the US.
Cloud City
New Member
Health care reform is a good thing! Its amazing the amount of disinformation and fear mongering out there. Nobody will have to change anything, no one is going to go to jail, President Obama is not going to rob you at gunpoint..
Philo2
Active Member
Do I want reform? Yes....
Do I want unconstitutional government involvement? Hell fucking no.
As much as the crazed out liberal wackos that want socialized medicine say that the free market has failed in health care, it's a lie. We don't have anything resembling a free market in health care. We don't have price competition and we don't have national competition, we don't have freedom of choice in health care. Government regulation has created regional oligopolies which restricts competition. We need to remove the anti-trust protections and force the health care industry to complete like every other industry.
Outside of anyone's opinions in favor or against socialized medicine, the whole point should be moot. We have this little piece of paper in this country called the constitution, and in that constitution it defines the powers of the federal government. The 10th Amendment clearly states
Do I want unconstitutional government involvement? Hell fucking no.
As much as the crazed out liberal wackos that want socialized medicine say that the free market has failed in health care, it's a lie. We don't have anything resembling a free market in health care. We don't have price competition and we don't have national competition, we don't have freedom of choice in health care. Government regulation has created regional oligopolies which restricts competition. We need to remove the anti-trust protections and force the health care industry to complete like every other industry.
Outside of anyone's opinions in favor or against socialized medicine, the whole point should be moot. We have this little piece of paper in this country called the constitution, and in that constitution it defines the powers of the federal government. The 10th Amendment clearly states
Until their is an amendment to the constitution giving the federal government power over health care any discussion of it by congress or the "president, is illegal and unconstitutional.
jeffchr
Well-Known Member
well, that is the difference
UK taxes fund healthcare
the bills that are working their way through Congress are not primarily funded by tax. healthcare in the US will still be funded with insurance premiums.
the UK doesn't have insurance companies milking the health industry.
jeff f
New Member
i get it now. finally after years of trying to figure you out i fially get it. i see why you seem so uninformed. you dont read the articles we post. so if you didnt read it, i posted it under "now this is healthcare". look it up if you like. it is absolutely in the bill. if you dont pay health insurance you go to jail. its in there.
see now i feel better that i figured you out cloud. here i always thought you were stupid, now i see you are just uninformed. that means there is still hope for you to realize what you will be giving up if this thing passes.
Dragline
Well-Known Member
So you will be so pissed you are going to move to a country that has MORE government involvement with healthcare than whats even being proposed here. That makes perfect sense.
Dragline
Well-Known Member
The UK system is beyond single payer. It is a 100% socialized system. A single payer system would be like our medicare. Doctors, nurses, hospitals would still be privately run, the government flips the bill. In the UK the doctors, nurses, and hospitals are all part of the government. Much like the VA system here...
Needless to say what is being proposed here is NOTHING like what the system is in the UK.
jeffchr
Well-Known Member
a very substantial portion of healthcare providers in the UK are privately held, for profit operations under contract.
Dragline
Well-Known Member
Under contract to only one client. Either way it is funded by the NHS.
Cloud City
New Member
What a load of shit!!!! Its not in there. Nobody is going to jail and nobody will have to change anything if they don't want to.