The Official House and Garden Thread

#1Raiderfan420

#1Raiderfan420

Well-Known Member
FYI
I received another e-mail from House and Garden exlaining the ph issues. I thought I would share for those that may be interested.

Hi ,

The PH issues you have are related to the use of R/O water.This is not a bad thing,R/O water is the best possible water source for hydroponics as it ensures the plants receive 100% of the balanced nutrients they require.

R/O water is more unstable with regards to PH,Also R/O machines takes the good elements out of the water too.
House & Garden have a product called PH Stabilizer, designed only for use in R/O systems,this product can stabilize the PH fluctuation and adds the goodness back into the water supply. If you are in Australia please send me an address and we will send you a bottle of PH stabilizer free of charge.

The other option is to use a concentrated silica product added before any nutrients do not adjust the PH,add all nutrients/additives and your PH should be in the correct range without the need for any adjustment.

Hope this helps

House & Garden Australia


On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 5:24 PM, wrote:
House and Garden,

Thank you for your prompt reply. I have talked to other users online that are using House and Garden nutrients and it seems that some experience this drop and some do not. Could it be because I use r/o water that with 0 ppm? How long is it recommended that the water stand after mixing the a/b before adjusting ph? Should I try using tap water? When I adjust the ph with the ph-up, the ph stablizes and when tested the next day is the same. Sorry for so many questions, but I want to continue this line of nutrients with my coco coir and just want to have a clear understanding of this ph issue.

Sincerely,




​
 
LoudBlunts

LoudBlunts

Well-Known Member
A break down of what he is saying.... and since you arent in Australia (ill give you an alternative)

a break down of what they are saying is pretty much understood with RO filters in reference to industry knowledge... however.... sometimes this knowledge slips pass consumers.


Anyway, if you arent familiar with Reverse Osmosis and the way it work....in laymans terms basically your sediment filter and carbon block filter and them you have the osmosis. Basically using pressurized water forcing it through the membranes. This means that you are losing water because some of it wont get through the filter... its more than that but basically the gist of it...

When it goes through the filters...it loses the ions and all the blah blah blah that makes the pH stable. This is also why they recommend you NOT keep your pH meter in RO water. As well as being kinda useless to pH RO water because ions are little to none existent. pH is the measure of potential hydrogen ions ( bare with the lose explanation, kinda stoned here)

Some RO filters produce too raw of water some dont....when i say raw i mean it strips it down... pretty much the explanation above. This is a reason why i stress getting horticulture grade RO filters....sure regular RO filters work and all that....but sometimes you end up paying for it in the long run. When your water is too raw, most of the times... the reason the pH isnt stable is because the Ro water produced is too acidic

I used to think my RO filter produced too raw of water and i used to have the same problem.

This can be remedied one or two ways....and since you arent in Australia... i guess it would be your best bet as i dont think H & G sells any of their additives like Brute Force & PH Stabilizer, their mediums and all in the US as of right now.

My first mistake was not letting my RO filter just run and run. The first time you use your RO filter, you should run it and not use the water, imo. When you first use RO filter and dont give it a chance to cycle through...has to do with TDS drift and all that. Basically its like rinsing dishes off before you use them instead of taking them out the box and putting them in the cabinet or eating straight off the dish fresh from the box.

Another solution is adding Potassium Bicarbonate. This is used to stabilize the pH and keeping it from becoming too acidic. 1 teaspoon bicarbonate per every 10 gallons of raw water

Wine/beer brewers use this stuff as well. so Potassium Bicarbonate should be easily had at a wine/brewery place.

hope that helped
 
LoudBlunts

LoudBlunts

Well-Known Member
also Potassium Bicarbonate has no nutritional value as far as i know. it is also the ingredients in pH UP as well
 
jberry

jberry

Well-Known Member
calcium helps stabilize water as well.

a mix of RO and Tap water works well... or RO mixed with dechlorinated tap water if u have chloramine in your water... but a very small amount of chlorine is needed, so every once in a while i add in like 5-10% plain tap water which seems to make a noticible difference when compared to the times ive used pure RO the entire time.

but for straight hydro, maybe pure RO is best?
 
LoudBlunts

LoudBlunts

Well-Known Member
oh yea duh i forgot about that

jberry hit the nail on the head.


the cheapest and most easiest solution...not to mention right in front of your face

would be to use maybe 3 parts RO water : 1 part Tap water

soooo 1 gallon of Tapwater for every 3 gallons of RO water?

that should help
 
#1Raiderfan420

#1Raiderfan420

Well-Known Member
LoudBlunts said:
A break down of what he is saying.... and since you arent in Australia (ill give you an alternative)

a break down of what they are saying is pretty much understood with RO filters in reference to industry knowledge... however.... sometimes this knowledge slips pass consumers.


Anyway, if you arent familiar with Reverse Osmosis and the way it work....in laymans terms basically your sediment filter and carbon block filter and them you have the osmosis. Basically using pressurized water forcing it through the membranes. This means that you are losing water because some of it wont get through the filter... its more than that but basically the gist of it...

When it goes through the filters...it loses the ions and all the blah blah blah that makes the pH stable. This is also why they recommend you NOT keep your pH meter in RO water. As well as being kinda useless to pH RO water because ions are little to none existent. pH is the measure of potential hydrogen ions ( bare with the lose explanation, kinda stoned here)

Some RO filters produce too raw of water some dont....when i say raw i mean it strips it down... pretty much the explanation above. This is a reason why i stress getting horticulture grade RO filters....sure regular RO filters work and all that....but sometimes you end up paying for it in the long run. When your water is too raw, most of the times... the reason the pH isnt stable is because the Ro water produced is too acidic

I used to think my RO filter produced too raw of water and i used to have the same problem.

This can be remedied one or two ways....and since you arent in Australia... i guess it would be your best bet as i dont think H & G sells any of their additives like Brute Force & PH Stabilizer, their mediums and all in the US as of right now.

My first mistake was not letting my RO filter just run and run. The first time you use your RO filter, you should run it and not use the water, imo. When you first use RO filter and dont give it a chance to cycle through...has to do with TDS drift and all that. Basically its like rinsing dishes off before you use them instead of taking them out the box and putting them in the cabinet or eating straight off the dish fresh from the box.

Another solution is adding Potassium Bicarbonate. This is used to stabilize the pH and keeping it from becoming too acidic. 1 teaspoon bicarbonate per every 10 gallons of raw water

Wine/beer brewers use this stuff as well. so Potassium Bicarbonate should be easily had at a wine/brewery place.

hope that helped
Click to expand...

LoudBlunts said:
also Potassium Bicarbonate has no nutritional value as far as i know. it is also the ingredients in pH UP as well
Click to expand...

Thanks for the detailed explaination! It seems the more I think I am learning the more I realize I don't know. I assumed that because the ph in my res doesn't change while standing over night that meant it was stable. I new the r/o stripped everything from the water, but I never took into account that that would make it easily manipulated by nitrients when added. I think I am going to try the 25% tap water idea and see what I get. If there isn't a noticable difference, then I will give the Potassium Bicarbonate a shot.
Another thing I didn't realize until blunts explained it in a few posts back, was that Ph-up wasn't a bad thing and the minimal ppm it adds. I had read somewhere that you weren't supposed to raise your ph by more that 1.0 using a ph-up.. Having said that I appreciate the advice and will try it out.
As far as a good r/o filter
is this one decent?



jberry said:
calcium helps stabilize water as well.

a mix of RO and Tap water works well... or RO mixed with dechlorinated tap water if u have chloramine in your water... but a very small amount of chlorine is needed, so every once in a while i add in like 5-10% plain tap water which seems to make a noticible difference when compared to the times ive used pure RO the entire time.

but for straight hydro, maybe pure RO is best?
Click to expand...
Thanks for the tips. I am using coco coir drain to waste, not sure if that is straight hydro?
LoudBlunts said:
oh yea duh i forgot about that

jberry hit the nail on the head.


the cheapest and most easiest solution...not to mention right in front of your face

would be to use maybe 3 parts RO water : 1 part Tap water

soooo 1 gallon of Tapwater for every 3 gallons of RO water?

that should help
Click to expand...
I will start by splitting the difference and using 20% or 10 gals in my 50 gal res of tap water and see how this effects the ph drop. I should probably mention that I am 200 yards from the water treatment plant, which means I have a lot of clhorine in my water.

The crazy thing is the plants seem to be doing great with the ph-up, but I am a little obsessive compulsive so I am always trying to improve shit. :)
 
mj320002

mj320002

Well-Known Member
Just use your r/o water. The reason tap water is stable is because it has a higher ppm. The term stable is misleading though. Your r/o water's ph isn't going to randomly jump around. It's just that a low ppm solution's ph is effected more by what you add to it then a high ppm solution. Using ph up to fix the ph drop is the way you fix it. Yes adding tap water will raise the ph but only because you're adding more ppms of useless crap. Add the ppms you want then adjust the ph don't use useless ppms to "stabilize" your water because it takes away from what you're trying to do in having r/o in the first place.

#1Raiderfan420 said:
Thanks for the detailed explaination! It seems the more I think I am learning the more I realize I don't know. I assumed that because the ph in my res doesn't change while standing over night that meant it was stable. I new the r/o stripped everything from the water, but I never took into account that that would make it easily manipulated by nitrients when added. I think I am going to try the 25% tap water idea and see what I get. If there isn't a noticable difference, then I will give the Potassium Bicarbonate a shot.
Another thing I didn't realize until blunts explained it in a few posts back, was that Ph-up wasn't a bad thing and the minimal ppm it adds. I had read somewhere that you weren't supposed to raise your ph by more that 1.0 using a ph-up.. Having said that I appreciate the advice and will try it out.
As far as a good r/o filter
is this one decent?





Thanks for the tips. I am using coco coir drain to waste, not sure if that is straight hydro?

I will start by splitting the difference and using 20% or 10 gals in my 50 gal res of tap water and see how this effects the ph drop. I should probably mention that I am 200 yards from the water treatment plant, which means I have a lot of clhorine in my water.

The crazy thing is the plants seem to be doing great with the ph-up, but I am a little obsessive compulsive so I am always trying to improve shit. :)
Click to expand...
 
#1Raiderfan420

#1Raiderfan420

Well-Known Member
mj320002 said:
Just use your r/o water. The reason tap water is stable is because it has a higher ppm. The term stable is misleading though. Your r/o water's ph isn't going to randomly jump around. It's just that a low ppm solution's ph is effected more by what you add to it then a high ppm solution. Using ph up to fix the ph drop is the way you fix it. Yes adding tap water will raise the ph but only because you're adding more ppms of useless crap. Add the ppms you want then adjust the ph don't use useless ppms to "stabilize" your water because it takes away from what you're trying to do in having r/o in the first place.
Click to expand...
LOL Makes sense. If it isn't broke..right? I am sorry for the highjack. I appreciate all the advice and if the ph-up doesn't hurt anything than I was worried about nothing in the first place. I could have saved time a thread space if I would have listened to loud when he asked "but why" lol:peace:
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
conradthecat said:
Well judging by the response that I have received from the company and humblot wholesale in regards to a sample request... I don't have a great feeling either...

But if they do come thru for me I will be happy to test their products..
Click to expand...
Ever seen how many threads here start off with a header like, "help, my leaves are yellowing and falling off." I bet you can find a dozen of them right now in that particular Sick Plants forum.

Every one of those issues can be traced back to the use of "cannabis specific" plant foods.

UB
 
purrrrple

purrrrple

Well-Known Member
mj320002 said:
Just use your r/o water. The reason tap water is stable is because it has a higher ppm. The term stable is misleading though. Your r/o water's ph isn't going to randomly jump around. It's just that a low ppm solution's ph is effected more by what you add to it then a high ppm solution. Using ph up to fix the ph drop is the way you fix it. Yes adding tap water will raise the ph but only because you're adding more ppms of useless crap. Add the ppms you want then adjust the ph don't use useless ppms to "stabilize" your water because it takes away from what you're trying to do in having r/o in the first place.
Click to expand...
well said.:joint:
 
jberry

jberry

Well-Known Member
ive sent brad and stephen 4-5 messages since October and got nothin...

i dont think they have any answers to the tough questions about specific ingredients and thats why i get the cold sholder.

im am happy using some of their products but i am over their service...
 
conradthecat

conradthecat

Member
jberry said:
ive sent brad and stephen 4-5 messages since October and got nothin...

i dont think they have any answers to the tough questions about specific ingredients and thats why i get the cold sholder.

im am happy using some of their products but i am over their service...
Click to expand...

I hear ya jberry...

Your kinda like a reporter at a climate conference asking inconvenient questions!!

Peace..
 
purrrrple

purrrrple

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
Europe has the reputation of producing snake oils and rocket fuels using outrageous claims and cost. The Dutch are the worst offenders.

If it's the guy I'm thinking of, he's a crook. He used to push his root canna tabs, CO2 gas offs, back 14 years ago. In spite of most telling him that roots require O2 to survive, he did not stop his shameless sales pitch. I wouldn't touch Canna products with a ten foot pole.

You believe everything someone tells you, especially a snake oil salesman?

Yeah, I just love promises, and I like to pray that the Grow God will give me big buds.

Being that it keeps lines and reservoirs "clean", does it contain urea phosphate?

What a pack of lies from these guys --> "Bio Bizz Bio-Grow (1.8-0.1-6.6) liquid fertilizer is ideal for promoting lush growth during the vegetative cycle, particularly in soil gardens."

The last thing it will promote is "lush growth". It will have the opposite affect of inducing premature leaf drop. The NPK value sucks for the best production and support of vegetation, it WILL induce a lockout of N, Mg, and Ca...... and based on the negligible amount of salts in that crap, you're better off peeing into a jar of water and soaking your plants, at least you'll get some N.

I could go on dispelling all of the misrepresentations of the products mentioned, but I'll quit now.

Facts before feelings fellas.....

UB
Click to expand...
Hey UB.. i've been using Canna for almost a year now since i started this thread and i love it... Can you please share with me why you do not like Canna? I find it OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive, but i have had very good results. Maybe i could get the same results or better from another line, and i just dont know any better?

Dont know a thing about urea phosphate.

And could you say a prayer to the bud gods for me? :mrgreen:
 
jberry

jberry

Well-Known Member
i used peters with the same strain for years... then i stopped using it... started using "Snake Oils" and my yields went up, the weed looked better, tasted better, and smelled better than it ever did when i used peters... The smell and taste were a huge difference.

and that is my experience.
 
B

Bob Smith

Well-Known Member
mj320002 said:
Just use your r/o water. The reason tap water is stable is because it has a higher ppm. The term stable is misleading though. Your r/o water's ph isn't going to randomly jump around. It's just that a low ppm solution's ph is effected more by what you add to it then a high ppm solution. Using ph up to fix the ph drop is the way you fix it. Yes adding tap water will raise the ph but only because you're adding more ppms of useless crap. Add the ppms you want then adjust the ph don't use useless ppms to "stabilize" your water because it takes away from what you're trying to do in having r/o in the first place.
Click to expand...
Raider, I have the same filter and a 35 gallon reservoir for my 4x4 table - it generally takes about a week or two for my pH to stabilize, but when it does, it's there - been at 5.7 for the past two weeks, with no manipulation on my part.

And just a word of warning - you only need to add a fraction of pH up or down to your R/O water to achiever the same results as tap water - start out be doing 1/4 of what would woud've done, test, and then go from there.

With "nothing" in the water, even a drop of up or down moves the needle pretty good.
 
#1Raiderfan420

#1Raiderfan420

Well-Known Member
Bob Smith said:
Raider, I have the same filter and a 35 gallon reservoir for my 4x4 table - it generally takes about a week or two for my pH to stabilize, but when it does, it's there - been at 5.7 for the past two weeks, with no manipulation on my part.

And just a word of warning - you only need to add a fraction of pH up or down to your R/O water to achiever the same results as tap water - start out be doing 1/4 of what would woud've done, test, and then go from there.

With "nothing" in the water, even a drop of up or down moves the needle pretty good.
Click to expand...
Thanks Bob. I usually add 6ml of ph-up for my 55 gal res to get it to 5.8. I used the Pro Slicate from grotek last mix and it only takes about 2-3 ml per gal to get the ph up. I added 5ml per gal the first time and the ph sky rocketed. I am learning that after you strip everything away with the r/o that it doesn't take much to move it either way, but does stay stable after adjusted.

Thaks again for the help.
 
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