Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too.

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
I make it a point to know where my meat comes from, only organic, grass fed beef and pork, and free range chicken finds its way onto my table, we only eat fish that I catch, and I grow a large vegetable garden every year. I'm glad to see you don't support PeTA, they make the good vegetarians look bad. I try not to judge people based on their dietary choices, and/or needs. Unfortunately, many vegetarians or vegans don't extend us omnivores the same courtesy.

Only problem I have with Johnny, is the fact that you have asked for data to back up claims, yet you offer no proof of your claims, many of which are cut and past from animal rights websites.
I have offered sourcing, specifically on health effects of a meat based diet. From Cambridge University no less. I also suggested a specific Google search for anyone willing to follow up.

Should I Google it for you? :lol:

Your argument fails because I have not asked for sourcing, at all. When asked I have provided it, even though it was rejected out of hand.

You can have a problem with me all day long. I could not care less. :fire:

But since you have made a statement saying my posts have been cut and paste, the burden of proof is on you. Let's have it!
 

dirtnap411

Well-Known Member
Not trying to be a dick, but I looked over both of those sites, and they are as credible as Fox News.
 

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
That's why I left off Jesus Christ and Abraham Lincoln. Some vegetarians claim them, but the evidence is questionable.

Although I suppose it might be possible to state that if Socrates were a vegetarian, Plato and possibly Aristotle might very well have been as well.

Here are some online sources. Mind you, both are veggie sites, so please consider the source. But the discussion is interesting for each.

http://www.happycow.net/famous_vegetarians.html
http://www.ivu.org/history/greece_rome/socrates.html
I'll check out the links. While the Greeks had very limited access to meat, most ate it, given the chance. Socrates didn't object on moral or scientific grounds, so it's unlikely he would've refused meat.

I'm very familiar with every Platonic dialogue, all of Aristotle's treatise, and even obscure texts from Xenophon and Aristophanes. That being said, I see no evidence to make dietary claims for these guys, but the discussion is interesting...
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases... Vegetarian diets offer a number of advantages, including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein and higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, boron, folate, antioxidants such as vitamins C and E, carotenoids, and phytochemicals. Some vegans may have intakes for vitamin B-12, vitamin D, calcium, zinc, and occasionally riboflavin that are lower than recommended.
- from Journal of the American Dietetic Association 103, no. 6 (June 2003)
That is the quote from the source you provided, dirtnap. LOL! :lol:

Can you refute anything within?

I forgot. It's not credible. :-P
 

Leothwyn

Well-Known Member
I agree with you on the factory farms %100. But, I think it can be done in a humane way... Not trying to make you cringe, but a bullet to the head or axe to the neck makes for about 1 second of suffering.
When it comes to factory farms, I have a bigger problem with the life they lead before they are killed, rather than how they are killed. They're ridiculously cramped, and they're fed a diet that is not healthy or natural for them. Sure, it fattens them up quickly, but it also makes them sick and unhealthy. That's why they have to be pumped full of antibiotics throughout their miserable lives... and that's why that kind of meat worse for us to eat (as opposed to grass-fed, free-range, etc.).
 

DaveyDoom

Well-Known Member
Buddy, you haven't seen me upset.

By the way, ignorant is not an insult.

Stupid
is an insult. Even if I thought you were stupid, I would not state it.

In fact, obtuse is not an insult either. In this particular case, it is deliberate as an evasive technique.

'Screaming tomatoes' was me characterizing your lame rebuttal. Do I really need to explain this to you?

You wish to believe the earth is flat. It does not affect me in the least.

If you cannot follow a logical argument then you are correct, we do not have anything further to discuss.

I can explain it to you but I cannot understand it for you.

I do not feel the need to win because, by my diet choice, I've already won.

It is very difficult to contract Mad Cow Disease, or the human variant if you must be technical, from a carrot.
Haha, what do you puff up and turn green like a piece of broccoli?

Once again JohnnyO, you bring absolutely nothing to the table. Nothing but a fabricated list of supposed vegetarians. Would you like to see my list of meat eaters who lived very healthy, long and happy lives? It will make your list look a fart in the wind.

Also, you should maybe look up those big words before you use them. Obtuse means lacking intelligence, JohnnyO... stupid. We're not talking about the earth being round or flat, and we're not talking screaming tomatoes. We're talking about meat, JohnnyO, stick to the subject and show me some proof.

Fact is JohnnyO, man has consumed meat and meat products since the dawn of time... and not only survived, but thrived. What do you think Nomads followed salad bars around Europe and the Americas? For you to think anything different would make you... well... obtuse... When you buy into a concept, you should study it more thoroughly. Don't just marvel at the glitter on the outside, dig in and learn the cons as well.

Bad example, JohnnyO, Mad Cow Disease. A direct result from factory farming, and meat just happens to be the product. Why did you not mention E-Coli, JohnnyO? Maybe it was part of your argument once, until they started finding it in vegetables. Which is my point exactly, mass production is the problem, not meat or vegetables. It's funny how bacteria and disease can find a host in just about ANY living matter. This is perfectly logical. Don't be so credulous, JohnnyO.

Forgive me for continuing on, I just could not help myself. Your blind arrogance usurps your ability to think clearly and rationally. You even have a cheerleader now to help you hold your ego up. It can't get any better than this. I actually asked myself at one point, who is the obtuse one here, the guy running the make believe coffee shop or the guy arguing with him? Then I said, ah, it's only the internet.
 

DaveyDoom

Well-Known Member
When it comes to factory farms, I have a bigger problem with the life they lead before they are killed, rather than how they are killed. They're ridiculously cramped, and they're fed a diet that is not healthy or natural for them. Sure, it fattens them up quickly, but it also makes them sick and unhealthy. That's why they have to be pumped full of antibiotics throughout their miserable lives... and that's why that kind of meat worse for us to eat (as opposed to grass-fed, free-range, etc.).
You are correct. I was assuming the reader already knew I meant the life lived was a natural one, my fault.
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
Haha, what do you puff up and turn green like a piece of broccoli?

Once again JohnnyO, you bring absolutely nothing to the table. Nothing but a fabricated list of supposed vegetarians. Would you like to see my list of meat eaters who lived very healthy, long and happy lives? It will make your list look a fart in the wind.
Somebody is getting a little frustrated. I'm looking straight at you Davey.

I'm bringing plenty to the table. You just don't like it. :-P
Also, you should maybe look up those big words before you use them. Obtuse means lacking intelligence, JohnnyO... stupid. We're not talking about the earth being round or flat, and we're not talking screaming tomatoes. We're talking about meat, JohnnyO, stick to the subject and show me some proof.
I also stated that in this case 'obtuse' was not an insult because I believe you are feigning stupidity (your word for obtuse) in order to avoid addressing my salient points.

The source I provided you already dismissed. I can show you sources all day long, but I know what your reaction will be: Flat out denial. And I am certain you will take issue with the source itself rather than the information provided.

But as you finally asked for some sourcing; let's dance.

First an overview. It's a cartoon so as to not tax your intellect too much.

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/05zhL1YUd8Q&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/05zhL1YUd8Q&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

And here's what the American Dietetic Association has to say about a vegetarian diet. You can go see for yourself.
http://www.eatright.org/About/Content.aspx?id=8357

And here is what an M.D. has to say on the subject.
http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/030700pumeatinthehumandiet.htm

And another.
http://www.earthsave.ca/articles/health/comparative.html

Were early humans vegetarian?
http://veg.ca/content/view/285/113/

An archaeologist's take.
http://www.ivu.org/history/early/archaeology.html
Fact is JohnnyO, man has consumed meat and meat products since the dawn of time... and not only survived, but thrived. What do you think Nomads followed salad bars around Europe and the Americas? For you to think anything different would make you... well... obtuse... When you buy into a concept, you should study it more thoroughly. Don't just marvel at the glitter on the outside, dig in and learn the cons as well.
I considered being vegetarian for over a decade before actually taking the plunge. I have been a vegetarian well over a decade since taking the plunge. I have heard the arguments for quite a while now; from the hilarious 'I eat meat because Jesus gave me incisors.' to the bellicose ravings of meat-eaters who perceive my diet as an affront to them.
Bad example, JohnnyO, Mad Cow Disease. A direct result from factory farming, and meat just happens to be the product. Why did you not mention E-Coli, JohnnyO? Maybe it was part of your argument once, until they started finding it in vegetables. Which is my point exactly, mass production is the problem, not meat or vegetables. It's funny how bacteria and disease can find a host in just about ANY living matter. This is perfectly logical. Don't be so credulous, JohnnyO.
So if you contract Creutzfeldt&#8211;Jakob disease from diseased meat it won't count because of the source of the meat? You are really reaching now.

E Coli in produce is a by-product of factory farming, genius. Just because some field hand applied un-composted manure onto the lettuce crop is not an indictment against lettuce. If pig shit run-off from the local factory farm floods the cantaloupe fields, the source of the E Coli is not the cantaloupe. It's the factory farm.

If one were to tally up E Coli deaths attributed to vegetables versus those attributed to meat, I wonder which column would be larger?
Forgive me for continuing on, I just could not help myself. Your blind arrogance usurps your ability to think clearly and rationally. You even have a cheerleader now to help you hold your ego up. It can't get any better than this. I actually asked myself at one point, who is the obtuse one here, the guy running the make believe coffee shop or the guy arguing with him? Then I said, ah, it's only the internet.
Aw, you hurt my feelings. :-(

Not really. :lol:

You'll forgive me if I am incapable being insulted by someone who chooses a barbarian diet. There's some hubris for you.

Lash out all you want, you simply prove my point for me. Just like when you when to another thread and intentionally tried to antagonize me by showing your ass.

And yes, it's just the internet. Yet, for some reason you insist on posting sad little rebuttals.

Now let the Denial-Fest begin! :fire:
 

tip top toker

Well-Known Member
can't quite work out what your issue is davy.

i don't drink coffee, tea, aany hot drinks, yet the world thrives on the stuff. am i a fucked up member of society that should be taunted for my choice?

his coice my choice your choice everyone get's their own choice. or are we not allowed differing opinions to your own?
 

DaveyDoom

Well-Known Member
Nice johnny, I hung around a bit today since your prompt responses indicate that this board is your entire little world. Frustrated? Yes, you are correct, I'm getting frustrated at your lack of solid evidence and your skirting the issue at hand. Truth is JohnnyO, I've handed you your ass with each response I made, and it pisses you off, therefor you keep coming back with complete "udder" bullshit and attack my IQ. Clearly skirting. Next you'll be dissecting my grammar and spelling.

You expect me to believe that you ate steak for ten years pondering why you were doing it? Did you cry for each meatball as you swallowed it down your throat? What finally made you take the plunge? Did the hot wings speak to you one day during a halftime show?

Thank you for pointing out how ecoli got into the lettuce, genius. You proved my point for me. I like it when you don't realize that you agree with me, the carnivore.

If you think the AMA, ADA (or any gov org) is a credible source, maybe you shouldn't be smoking cannabis, either. They say it's bad for you JohnnyO.

The fact that you actually believe that you're above someone who loves meat, simply because you don't, speaks volumes toward your character, JohnnyO. How childish to think such a thing. No wonder you hang out in fantasy land 24/7.

You should get back to your hip electronic coffeehouse Johnny, I was just in there (while you were out searching for wit) in my bear-skin loincloth, alligator boots and coon skin cap and shit on your counter... right in front of your peanut gallery. The enzymes in my rare steak keeps me pretty regular. But hey, at least it was a solid shit unlike your vegan runny ass mess.:lol:

You're too much fun, JohnnyO, but I'm starting to feel bad for picking on you.
 

DaveyDoom

Well-Known Member
can't quite work out what your issue is davy.

i don't drink coffee, tea, aany hot drinks, yet the world thrives on the stuff. am i a fucked up member of society that should be taunted for my choice?

his coice my choice your choice everyone get's their own choice. or are we not allowed differing opinions to your own?
You must keep up. We are beyond the pros and cons of prime rib. johnnyO changed that subject long ago. I have no problem with your choices, my choices or his choices. The issue at hand now, is johnnyO swinging his big internet penis and I'm just putting him in check.
 
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