Dennis Watley (sp) talked aout this in his Win-Win series of motivational tapes. The way I understood it was it is common for folks that find themselves with 'enough stuff' and money left over feel quilty about their success. And what you are discussing is what is wrong with 'us'. The standard should be what percentage of your income do you pay to yourself first, 'feed the pig' and it will feed you. As long as we are 'in debt' 'they have the power'. The manipulation of the IRS and the 'tax codes' helps fuel this in'debt'edness. Sorry FDD, didn't mean to jump your thread. We are told 'homeownership' is the American Dream, and look at all the ways it saves you money. In the 60's, a second mortgage was not a good thing unless it was for 'home improvement's', now we talk about 'our-refi', like its a good thing. The housing market hit's a slump and you can't get another refi, now you want the rest of us to pay, and the debtors just keep counting our money, like they have a right to it, for their years of service to 'the public good'. VV