Liberty > Security

[Keenly]

i found this article rather interesting, read and enjoy, and then lets have some open forum about the topic shall we?


It’s Official: A Majority Of Americans Would Give Up Liberty In Order To Be Safe From Terrorism




The Truth
January 15, 2010




“They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.”


-Benjamin Franklin






It is now official. A majority of Americans are willing to give up liberty in order to be safer from terrorism. A stunning new McClatchy-Ipsos poll has found that 51 percent of Americans agree with this statement: ”it is necessary to give up some civil liberties in order to make the country safe from terrorism.”




Only 36 percent of those polled agreed with this statement: “some of the government’s proposals will go too far in restricting the public’s civil liberties.”


So are Americans really this stupid?
Have they really been brainwashed into willingly giving up their essential liberties just so they can feel a little safer?
Maybe they have.


After all, a new USA TODAY/Gallup poll says that 78 percent of Americans approve of the new full body scanners that the U.S. government wants to install in all U.S. airports.


So almost 4 out of 5 Americans are perfectly fine with letting airport security officials gawk at their naked bodies just so they can feel a bit safer from terrorists. How sick is that?




The truth is that when Americans allow themselves to become so wimpy and so fearful that they are willing to throw many of their most important freedoms out the window, those responsible for the terror scares have won.




In fact, Amerika (formerly America) is very quickly becoming a brutal police state where privacy is a thing of the past and where free speech and alternative points of view are openly repressed.




For example, in a 2008 academic paper President Barack Obama’s appointee to head the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs advocated “cognitive infiltration” of groups that advocate “conspiracy theories”.




Infiltration of groups with alternative viewpoints that the government doesn’t like?
Do we live in East Germany?
Apparently we do.


Americans do not care about their freedoms and liberties anymore, so now they are being taken away.


And apparently the message of the most recent polls is that Americans are perfectly fine with that.

 

[guitarzan420]

Unfortunately Keenly you are right. Most Americans are sheep just waiting to be led around by the nose. I for one am not in that percentage of sheep.I own guns!!! I think H1N1 vaccine is a freakin conspiracy. Fuck the fedeys!!!!

 

[Keenly]

its human nature to have a desire to feel secure, but trading liberties away to get it is only going to land you in chains, and youll be secure alright, as a slave

 

[guitarzan420]

My sentiments exactly!

 

[ViRedd]

This has been coming for a very long time. Hey, put a butter knife in your kid's lunch pail so he/she can spread peanut butter on a piece of bread ... and the kid is expelled from school. Your fifth-grade son kisses a girl on the cheek and he's turned over to the police for sexual harassment. Tell a racial joke and you're turned in for a hate crime. Some idiot shoots up a mall and the local city managers pass an ordinance to outlaw guns in the city.

Turn your kids over to a Progressive establishment called the National Education Association and the end product is a mush-filled brain that regurgitates progressive, brainless propaganda. Observe that kid when he's 18 ... and he votes for Obama.

 

[hanimmal]

“They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.”


-Benjamin Franklin

This has been coming for a very long time. Hey, put a butter knife in your kid's lunch pail so he/she can spread peanut butter on a piece of bread ... and the kid is expelled from school. Your fifth-grade son kisses a girl on the cheek and he's turned over to the police for sexual harassment. Tell a racial joke and you're turned in for a hate crime. Some idiot shoots up a mall and the local city managers pass an ordinance to outlaw guns in the city.

How is a butter knife, a girl not wanting to be kissed, holding a gun in a city, or a racial joke essential?

Turn your kids over to a Progressive establishment called the National Education Association and the end product is a mush-filled brain that regurgitates progressive, brainless propaganda. Observe that kid when he's 18 ... and he votes for Obama.

At least we can read, and apply all the words used like 'essential'.

 

[NoDrama]

Essential liberties would be the first and second amendements, for if either one were to not exist we would all be slaves. The first lets us learn about it, the second lets us do something about it. Free speech = free minds

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech or the press; or the right of the people to peaceably assemble and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
--Patrick Henry

heres the fucked up quote of the day:

[the United States] can't be so fixed on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans...
--President William Jefferson Clinton, March 1, 1993: Boston Globe, 3/2/93, page 3

 

[JustAnotherFriedDay]

absolutely disgusting quote by bill the horn dog.

 

[qptyqpty]

78% of 542 -- or 422 scaredy bitches do not represent the security concerns of Est. 402 million United States Citizens. I call bullshit. Majority of Americans say fuck those scanners.

Article may as well be tinfoil.

I will not sacrifice my security for shit. My doomsday clock is set on cocked and locked. Maybe its the weed but I feel a shit storm is a comin and my training will not go to waste.

I had the privilege of talking to a few Sergeants at a Natl Guard Armory and inquired if they are gearing up for national emergency and they said yes definitely. When I asked about martial law, the one I was speaking to lowered his eyes as if witholding information. He told me no, and I inquired no further. I happily reminded the soldiers of the Oath that we had all taken and that it is not their right but their responsibility to not follow an unconstitutional or unlawful command.

Also, in Oklahoma they are eaither considering or it is already in law that it is illegal to fortify your home against legal enforcement under the Uniform Controlled Substances Act or something. We are having liberties stripped more and more very day. Talk to everyone you know. I have had the privilege of speaking to thousands of people across my state over the last 3 years, and the trend I am seeing is a mass awakening. This is good. Now that we have folks awake, we can now start ACTION. Vote locally, DO NOT VOTE NATIONALLY. These faux elections represent a fair election no more than a strip club casino machine.

There have been government hearings on rigged elections and voter fraud. Well lets get back to selecting americans to hand count every single vote ticket, Written in pen by each voter, and then handed to a panel of judge counters to a final tally or something. I will no onger vote in national elections until I feel I am not voting against an algorithm.

If you vote locally, you can voice your ideas to your local community. If you gain enough support, then bring it to the attention of the local politicians, and they bring it higher. It is how the process works. If you are interested in getting an idea across, get people to sign your proposition and show your State District Representative that the people of your area are interested in this idea. When people do this in their towns everywhere, when everyone gets involved in actually judging a candidate on their past legislation and voting record rather than campaign fodder, we can make real change. The sad reality is I would rather see a candidate travel the country and donate money do give Katrina victims homes and help feed homeless due to the housing mortgage crisis that hear his bullshit speeches across the nation with all the high tech high cost Colosseum smoke screen.

 

[ilkhan]

Nominate and elect liberty minded Sheriffs as well.
The County Sheriff is the highest elected law enforcement officer in the country.
They are much more powerful then even they know.

 

[hanimmal]

If you vote locally, you can voice your ideas to your local community. If you gain enough support, then bring it to the attention of the local politicians, and they bring it higher. It is how the process works. If you are interested in getting an idea across, get people to sign your proposition and show your State District Representative that the people of your area are interested in this idea.

The ironic thing is that this is exactly how most of the nonsense laws get started. Some moms gets up in arms over some tragedy like columbine and on a local level they get their schools to ban everything, then it moves up and up eventually making all schools have to follow this crap.

While I am not saying there are not nutballs that are going to start shit, there is always that possibility and the internet does help them to coordinate far more efficiently making it larger and larger groups of nutjobs. The majority of america are not of the mindset that the sky is falling.

 

[hanimmal]

[the United States] can't be so fixed on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans...
--President William Jefferson Clinton, March 1, 1993: Boston Globe, 3/2/93, page 3

Where is the rest of the quote?

 

[Katatawnic]

I had the privilege of talking to a few Sergeants at a Natl Guard Armory and inquired if they are gearing up for national emergency and they said yes definitely. When I asked about martial law, the one I was speaking to lowered his eyes as if witholding information. He told me no, and I inquired no further. I happily reminded the soldiers of the Oath that we had all taken and that it is not their right but their responsibility to not follow an unconstitutional or unlawful command.

I call bullshit. You either made this up, or you have a very wild imagination (read: severe paranoia). Sergeants are not privy to conspiracy meetings, and aren't given the opportunity to withhold such information from civilians during casual conversation. Where was this martial law for which they were preparing? Or was this incident a secret after the fact, as well? (That would indeed be one hell of a conspiracy!)

Here's what I'd really love to know: What were these soldiers' responses to your "reminding" them of their oath they live every day of their lives?

I personally know more than my share of soldiers; very personally. Considering my Army Natl Guard Medic just came home on July 31 after a year of deployment to Iraq, is on standby to serve as a medic to assist in Haiti, and has been sent on several similar missions during his enlistment (i.e., to assist the evacuees during the inferno that consumed So. CA two years ago)... it's safe to say that I've an inkling or two about the military life. Oh yeah, and my dad and uncles were all Army or USMC, and my ex-husband was USMC (during Desert Storm at that, so I've been on the homefront for Iraqi conflicts twice).

Your "they were preparing for martial law conspiracy" would have been a tad more convincing had you said you'd had privilege of talking with some Natl Guard big brass. Or are you not aware of chain of command? Newsflash: they're not allowed to discuss their orders, period. Of course they're not going to discuss their orders (whatever they know in advance about them, that is) with civilians in casual conversation; of course you're going to think they're "withholding information" because they're not allowed to talk about their orders. See, that would compromise security... I know, such a nasty word.

Granted, it's not the "popular" thing to speak in favor of soldiers nowadays. That's fine, I don't need to be the popular girl; middle school was a very long time ago, and I'm quite over it. I will add that while I stand by my soldiers, that doesn't mean that I'm "for" war. However, I won't sit here and defend myself for holding the "unpopular" opinion. I don't give a rat's ass about fads. I do, however, give a huge rat's ass about tall tales, and I've absolutely had it with our soldiers being slammed left and right for having the courage to do take on jobs that their "slammers" won't.

Where is the rest of the quote?

That's what I wanted to know too, so I Googled "Clinton 1993 Boston Globe fixed desire preserve rights ordinary Americans" with a few variations for the search, and each result turned up the exact same thing... the partial quote in this thread, cited as, "President William Clinton, March 1, 1993 during a press conference in Piscataway, NJ source: Boston Globe, 3/2/93, page 3" for sources. So far I've found nothing more than what was quoted here; no more, no less. I guess the rest is lost. I'm not advocating the partial quote, but without seeing it in its entirety and completely within context, I can't condemn either. Without the entire statement intact, we can't possibly know exactly what was being conveyed.

 

[ginjawarrior]

I call bullshit. You either made this up, or you have a very wild imagination (read: severe paranoia). Sergeants are not privy to conspiracy meetings, and aren't given the opportunity to withhold such information from civilians during casual conversation. Where was this martial law for which they were preparing? Or was this incident a secret after the fact, as well? (That would indeed be one hell of a conspiracy!)

Here's what I'd really love to know: What were these soldiers' responses to your "reminding" them of their oath they live every day of their lives?

I personally know more than my share of soldiers; very personally. Considering my Army Natl Guard Medic just came home on July 31 after a year of deployment to Iraq, is on standby to serve as a medic to assist in Haiti, and has been sent on several similar missions during his enlistment (i.e., to assist the evacuees during the inferno that consumed So. CA two years ago)... it's safe to say that I've an inkling or two about the military life. Oh yeah, and my dad and uncles were all Army or USMC, and my ex-husband was USMC (during Desert Storm at that, so I've been on the homefront for Iraqi conflicts twice).

Your "they were preparing for martial law conspiracy" would have been a tad more convincing had you said you'd had privilege of talking with some Natl Guard big brass. Or are you not aware of chain of command? Newsflash: they're not allowed to discuss their orders, period. Of course they're not going to discuss their orders (whatever they know in advance about them, that is) with civilians in casual conversation; of course you're going to think they're "withholding information" because they're not allowed to talk about their orders. See, that would compromise security... I know, such a nasty word.

Granted, it's not the "popular" thing to speak in favor of soldiers nowadays. That's fine, I don't need to be the popular girl; middle school was a very long time ago, and I'm quite over it. I will add that while I stand by my soldiers, that doesn't mean that I'm "for" war. However, I won't sit here and defend myself for holding the "unpopular" opinion. I don't give a rat's ass about fads. I do, however, give a huge rat's ass about tall tales, and I've absolutely had it with our soldiers being slammed left and right for having the courage to do take on jobs that their "slammers" won't.



That's what I wanted to know too, so I Googled "Clinton 1993 Boston Globe fixed desire preserve rights ordinary Americans" with a few variations for the search, and each result turned up the exact same thing... the partial quote in this thread, cited as, "President William Clinton, March 1, 1993 during a press conference in Piscataway, NJ source: Boston Globe, 3/2/93, page 3" for sources. So far I've found nothing more than what was quoted here; no more, no less. I guess the rest is lost. I'm not advocating the partial quote, but without seeing it in its entirety and completely within context, I can't condemn either. Without the entire statement intact, we can't possibly know exactly what was being conveyed.

i was bored so i googled it wasnt really looking for the original from boston globe just the full text heres what i found

A student expressed appreciation and support for community service ideals.]
Gun Control Legislation
Q. The National Rifle Association right now, in New Jersey, is actively seeking to overturn the assault weapons ban that Governor Florio put on the books in 1990. They say if they're successful, then no other State will be able to enact rigid gun control and that you'll have a very tough time getting the Brady bill through Congress. Are you concerned about that?
The President. I think Governor Florio is right. And I'm going to sure try to pass the Brady bill. I think Americans who want safer streets and still want people to be able to hunt and fish and pursue their sporting activities should take a lot of heart in the success that Governor Wilder had in Virginia recently. And Virginia, it has become a source, as you know, of weapons for a lot of illegal activity all up and down the Atlantic seaboard. And they've gone to that once-a-month limitation on the purchase of guns.
You know, we can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans to legitimately own handguns and rifles—it's something I strongly support—we can't be so fixated on that that we are unable to think about the reality of life that millions of Americans face on streets that are unsafe, under conditions that no other nation—no other nations—has permitted to exist. And at some point, I still hope that the leadership of the National Rifle Association will go back to doing what it did when I was a boy and which made me want to be a lifetime member because they put out valuable information about hunting and marksmanship and safe use of guns. But just to know of the conditions we face today in a lot of our cities and other places in this country and the enormous threat to public safety is amazing.
I've got young Americans now in Somalia trying to create conditions of peaceful existence there in a country where it is difficult. But there are a lot of young Americans who are living in neighborhoods today that are about as dangerous or worse than what kids are facing in Somalia in terms of shots, not in terms of hunger and access to medicine and shelter, that's different.
But I have to tell you I think that Governor Florio did a gusty thing here. I think Governor Wilder did a brave thing. I had my own encounters back home in Arkansas, and I just hope to be able to pass the Brady bill and do some other sensible things that do not unduly infringe on the right of the law-abiding citizen to keep and bear arms, but will help make these children's future safer. And I think we ought to do that.

 

[Katatawnic]

Thanks for that, Ginja! I've been up since 6:30am yesterday, and I got too tired to keep searching.

Now that I can see it in its full glory, I can safely state that was a very stupid thing for Clinton to have said... and that's my understatement for the day.

 

[NoDrama]

Well what do you know, Peoples rights to own rifles and handguns are not as important as peoples desire to not feel unsafe. Oh and then he goes on to say that only in the USA do people feel unsafe to walk the streets. I really beg to differ on that one.

The safest place on earth and the one country that hasn't been in a conflict since 1815 also AMAZINGLY has an average of eight( Firearms per capita average.. Switzerland. The Swiss love guns and since any personal crime would probably be met with extreme firepower, most criminals just do not commit crimes there. Would you break into someones home knowing they had a family of 4 and each and every person was an expert shot? I know I wouldn't, the Swiss are gun nuts and grow up around them and learn to shoot before most are 5 years old, males and females alike. Target shooting is one of the top sports there. People don't fuck with the Swiss.

 

[Keenly]

im more scared of finland =/

 

[ginjawarrior]

Well what do you know, Peoples rights to own rifles and handguns are not as important as peoples desire to not feel unsafe. Oh and then he goes on to say that only in the USA do people feel unsafe to walk the streets. I really beg to differ on that one.

The safest place on earth and the one country that hasn't been in a conflict since 1815 also AMAZINGLY has an average of eight( Firearms per capita average.. Switzerland. The Swiss love guns and since any personal crime would probably be met with extreme firepower, most criminals just do not commit crimes there. Would you break into someones home knowing they had a family of 4 and each and every person was an expert shot? I know I wouldn't, the Swiss are gun nuts and grow up around them and learn to shoot before most are 5 years old, males and females alike. Target shooting is one of the top sports there. People don't fuck with the Swiss.

its only .46 guns per person in switzerland according to wikki also they have manidtory national service it seems they breed a much better population that can be trusted with their guns...

No. Country Guns per
100 residents Year Comment 1

United States 90.0 2007
2

Yemen 61.0 2007
3

Switzerland 46.0 2007
4

Iraq 39.0 2007
5

Serbia 37.5 2007
6

France 32.0 2007
7

Finland[5] 32.0 2008
8

Greece 31.8 2010
9

Canada 31.5 2007
10

Sweden 31.5 2007
11

Austria 31.0 2007
12

Germany 30.0 2007
13

New Zealand[2] 26.8 1993
14

Saudi Arabia 26.3 2007
15

Angola 20.5 2007
16

Thailand 16.0 2007
17

Australia 15.5 2007
18

Mexico 15.0 2007
19

South Africa 13.1 2007
20

Turkey 13.0 2007
21

Argentina 12.6 2007
22

Italy 12.1 2007
23

Pakistan 12.0 2007
24

Spain 11.0 2007
25

Russia 9.0 2007
26

Ukraine 9.0 2007
27

Brazil 8.8 2007
28

Colombia 7.2 2007
29

United Kingdom 5.6 2007
30

Iran 5.3 2007
31

Philippines 4.7 2007
32

India 4.0 2007
33

China 3.5 2007
34

Nigeria 1.0 2007

 

[NoDrama]

I call bullshit. You either made this up, or you have a very wild imagination (read: severe paranoia). Sergeants are not privy to conspiracy meetings, and aren't given the opportunity to withhold such information from civilians during casual conversation. Where was this martial law for which they were preparing? Or was this incident a secret after the fact, as well? (That would indeed be one hell of a conspiracy!)

Here's what I'd really love to know: What were these soldiers' responses to your "reminding" them of their oath they live every day of their lives?

I personally know more than my share of soldiers; very personally. Considering my Army Natl Guard Medic just came home on July 31 after a year of deployment to Iraq, is on standby to serve as a medic to assist in Haiti, and has been sent on several similar missions during his enlistment (i.e., to assist the evacuees during the inferno that consumed So. CA two years ago)... it's safe to say that I've an inkling or two about the military life. Oh yeah, and my dad and uncles were all Army or USMC, and my ex-husband was USMC (during Desert Storm at that, so I've been on the homefront for Iraqi conflicts twice).

Your "they were preparing for martial law conspiracy" would have been a tad more convincing had you said you'd had privilege of talking with some Natl Guard big brass. Or are you not aware of chain of command? Newsflash: they're not allowed to discuss their orders, period. Of course they're not going to discuss their orders (whatever they know in advance about them, that is) with civilians in casual conversation; of course you're going to think they're "withholding information" because they're not allowed to talk about their orders. See, that would compromise security... I know, such a nasty word.

He never says they were preparing for Martial law, only that they were training heavily for national emergencies. He also never says they admitted to anything, only that they did not, but that he got the feeling something was withheld by the downward glance. People who look away are most likely uncomfortable for some reason. Usually this reason is deception of some kind. I think you read way way more into this than what was said. He didn't say one bad thing about the military, not one thing, yet you attack him like you did is just reprehensible behavior IMO.

 

[doc111]

78% of 542 -- or 422 scaredy bitches do not represent the security concerns of Est. 402 million United States Citizens. I call bullshit. Majority of Americans say fuck those scanners.

Article may as well be tinfoil.

I will not sacrifice my security for shit. My doomsday clock is set on cocked and locked. Maybe its the weed but I feel a shit storm is a comin and my training will not go to waste.

I had the privilege of talking to a few Sergeants at a Natl Guard Armory and inquired if they are gearing up for national emergency and they said yes definitely. When I asked about martial law, the one I was speaking to lowered his eyes as if witholding information. He told me no, and I inquired no further. I happily reminded the soldiers of the Oath that we had all taken and that it is not their right but their responsibility to not follow an unconstitutional or unlawful command.

Also, in Oklahoma they are eaither considering or it is already in law that it is illegal to fortify your home against legal enforcement under the Uniform Controlled Substances Act or something. We are having liberties stripped more and more very day. Talk to everyone you know. I have had the privilege of speaking to thousands of people across my state over the last 3 years, and the trend I am seeing is a mass awakening. This is good. Now that we have folks awake, we can now start ACTION. Vote locally, DO NOT VOTE NATIONALLY. These faux elections represent a fair election no more than a strip club casino machine.

There have been government hearings on rigged elections and voter fraud. Well lets get back to selecting americans to hand count every single vote ticket, Written in pen by each voter, and then handed to a panel of judge counters to a final tally or something. I will no onger vote in national elections until I feel I am not voting against an algorithm.

If you vote locally, you can voice your ideas to your local community. If you gain enough support, then bring it to the attention of the local politicians, and they bring it higher. It is how the process works. If you are interested in getting an idea across, get people to sign your proposition and show your State District Representative that the people of your area are interested in this idea. When people do this in their towns everywhere, when everyone gets involved in actually judging a candidate on their past legislation and voting record rather than campaign fodder, we can make real change. The sad reality is I would rather see a candidate travel the country and donate money do give Katrina victims homes and help feed homeless due to the housing mortgage crisis that hear his bullshit speeches across the nation with all the high tech high cost Colosseum smoke screen.

Actually, he did ask a question about martial law.............

He never says they were preparing for Martial law, only that they were training heavily for national emergencies. He also never says they admitted to anything, only that they did not, but that he got the feeling something was withheld by the downward glance. People who look away are most likely uncomfortable for some reason. Usually this reason is deception of some kind. I think you read way way more into this than what was said. He didn't say one bad thing about the military, not one thing, yet you attack him like you did is just reprehensible behavior IMO.

You are correct though in that he said they never admitted to anything. I also agree with you about not attacking people but I have to agree with Kat on this one. Low level enlisted National Guardsmen are NOT going to be privvy to information like that. Could they be training for something that may lead one to think they are preparing for martial law? Sure but the military doesn't give out this kind of information to grunts even if they are preparing for it.