The new pump...

[The Mad Hatter]

T.M.H
About the pumps and noise... I purchased an aquatec 6800. It is a RO booster pump capable of 150 psi and is pretty much silent. Also keep in mind the acc. tank idea so the pump wont be kickin on and off all the time making that noise. I am sure you have already got things figured out but just wanted to chime in bc i like to have all the info i can get

Advice is always welcome man

Looks good but I can't seem to find real specs anywhere... I'll look around a bit more but it sounds good... And I'm guessing it must be 12V, which would be cool... Can run everything but the lights of a car battery in case of an emergency... Very cool really... Thanks for the tip.

I'm really considering that booster tank now... Lowes had a 5 Gal on sale for $30 the other day... Might be just the ticket for my reduced setup.

I uploaded the vid again in a different format and it seems to have worked out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RFhfe_mZe4

It's really more like pump porn than anything else... But I'll have a few shots of the nozzles up later today. Everything is looking good so far...

Cheers,
T.H.H.

 

[travish413]

Advice is always welcome man

Looks good but I can't seem to find real specs anywhere... I'll look around a bit more but it sounds good... And I'm guessing it must be 12V, which would be cool... Can run everything but the lights of a car battery in case of an emergency... Very cool really... Thanks for the tip.

I'm really considering that booster tank now... Lowes had a 5 Gal on sale for $30 the other day... Might be just the ticket for my reduced setup.

I uploaded the vid again in a different format and it seems to have worked out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RFhfe_mZe4

It's really more like pump porn than anything else... But I'll have a few shots of the nozzles up later today. Everything is looking good so far...

Cheers,
T.H.H.

I cant find a spec sheet with mine. I dont know if they sent me one... I was wrong about the psi though. The only thing i know for sure is its max inlet and outlet psi is 125. I got mine off of waterfiltersonline.com and its an aquatec cdp 6800. Maybe they'll have some specs on the page.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

I cant find a spec sheet with mine. I dont know if they sent me one... I was wrong about the psi though. The only thing i know for sure is its max inlet and outlet psi is 125. I got mine off of waterfiltersonline.com and its an aquatec cdp 6800. Maybe they'll have some specs on the page.

Seems like even the manufacturer doesn't have anything posted... Can't be that low though... Most of the acc tanks need to be charged at over 90 PSI... Which would still be enough... It just kind of odd though... Most company's have charts and graphs and all sorts of min and max numbers and they just seem to have an install guide.

 

[travish413]

Seems like even the manufacturer doesn't have anything posted... Can't be that low though... Most of the acc tanks need to be charged at over 90 PSI... Which would still be enough... It just kind of odd though... Most company's have charts and graphs and all sorts of min and max numbers and they just seem to have an install guide.

I havent tested mine yet but the sticker on the front says max psi 125. I plan on running in the 90-70 range. I hope it will do the job...

 

[tree farmer]

if you were getting 50 psi before with the pump then you will get 50psi or more if you put a cheap accumulator in. i think it would be a cheap, quick fix instead of getting a new pump. ive used the type pump you have and they work good with a cheap well accumulator tank at 40-60 psi. just put a tee in the line from the pump to the selonoids and plumb the tank in. even if you didnt add a pressure switch to control the pump it would probably stop the squeal caused by reducing the flow to get the pressure up. the accumulator would act like a relief to the whole system giving you a steady pressure to the solenoids and allowing the pump someplace to push the excess flow. youd still need a return line back to the res after the accumulator but beween the return line and the selonoids firing and the accumulator capacity you might be able to run the pump continuously and stop the problem. then again if your using less flow than whats going thru the nozzels and siphoning back to the res , the accumulator will eventually reach capacity and the problem might just return.

worst case senario accumulator doesnt stop the problem then all you would have to do is add a cheap pressure switch to control the pump as the accumulator would already be in place and youd be set for sure.

im just thinking another pump might just do the same thing. i know my pump which will pump .7 gpm at 80 psi can barely mantain that pressure if i open up the 1/4 inch return line to the res and my pump is pretty hefty as far as low flow high pressures are concerned.

im thinking its going to take a good size pump to mantain a high pressure and flow that will be able to run continuously although ive never attempted what your trying. once you start getting bigger pumps to do that then they also start sucking the juice pretty good also.

its never easy trying something you have no reference for. and i know it sucks cause it costs money to always rework designs. thats one of the reasons i went with the pump based HP over the air assisted cause i had previous experience with pump based systems. good thing i did as i had my hands full just learning the HP side of aero.

 

[tree farmer]

Seems like even the manufacturer doesn't have anything posted... Can't be that low though... Most of the acc tanks need to be charged at over 90 PSI... Which would still be enough... It just kind of odd though... Most company's have charts and graphs and all sorts of min and max numbers and they just seem to have an install guide.

when i was looking for a pump i checked the aquatec pumps out also and i had to call the manufactue to get the info. after talking to the rep at the company i went with the shurflow because the rep told me if i wanted the flow and pressure i requested thier best pump could do it but it wasnt going to be silent. so i figured fuck it if there pumps cant do it quietly i might as well go with what i knew worked and that was the shurflow's. dont get me wrong the aquatecs are good pumps but the tech rep told me plain out that 1GPM at 80-100psi was the very upper limit of thier pumps.

never believe these pump numbers they love to show the rosest picture they can when listing specs. just like all these accumulators show these 100 psi pressures but i have email responses from almost every major accumulator tank manufacture and when asked "can your tanks operate at 100 psi continuously" the answer was always no. even the tank i now have the guy led me to believe it could opterate at 125psi cause he new thats what i wanted. so i bought the tank then when i got it it said right on the tank in big red print "do not operate unless pressure relief valve is installed and set to 100psi."WTF. it can go to 125psi but it cant operate at that pressure continuosly. of coarse the sales person later backpeddled when asked. be careful their shisters.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

when i was looking for a pump i checked the aquatec pumps out also and i had to call the manufactue to get the info. after talking to the rep at the company i went with the shurflow because the rep told me if i wanted the flow and pressure i requested thier best pump could do it but it wasnt going to be silent. so i figured fuck it if there pumps cant do it quietly i might as well go with what i knew worked and that was the shurflow's. dont get me wrong the aquatecs are good pumps but the tech rep told me plain out that 1GPM at 80-100psi was the very upper limit of thier pumps.

never believe these pump numbers they love to show the rosest picture they can when listing specs. just like all these accumulators show these 100 psi pressures but i have email responses from almost every major accumulator tank manufacture and when asked "can your tanks operate at 100 psi continuously" the answer was always no. even the tank i now have the guy led me to believe it could opterate at 125psi cause he new thats what i wanted. so i bought the tank then when i got it it said right on the tank in big red print "do not operate unless pressure relief valve is installed and set to 100psi."WTF. it can go to 125psi but it cant operate at that pressure continuosly. of coarse the sales person later backpeddled when asked. be careful their shisters.

Yeah, never trust a salesman It's funny cuz' it was the pressure limit that ultimately made me put it back on the shelf a few days ago... The tank had a 97psi limit (I kid you not... 97 of all things) and I kind of wanted something that was okay with what the upper limit that I've seen from the pump was... (140ish) just in case something went catastrophically wrong pressure switch wise etc... I just have visions of the thing popping like a balloon, but I guess I need to get over that... Hell at $29 it'll cost more in pipe fittings to install the thing so I'll give it a shot.

Painful thing is it's probably going to end up costing me my nice clean vertical layout... I figure the thing needs to be installed with the inlet/outlet facing down so I don't accumulate stale nutrients in there... I'll have to chew over the layout a bit... Not really a bad thing... I don't like the filter supporting the whole mess the way it is now anyway...

Anyway, thanks for the advice... Always well thought out

Take a look at the video when you get a chance... I'll have some actual shots of the misters up soon... But I need to chop them down a bit and edit my face out

T.M.H.

 

[Atomizer]

Hi TMH
The 6800 runs on 24v ac and will deliver about 5.6gal/hr average between 60 and 90psi.
A saleman wouldn`t allow for the accumulator so they`ll always spec a bigger pump. With a 5gal tank even this little pump could run 16 nozzles (15.6LPH) on 2s/10mins and still only fire up for 4% of the day.

I just have visions of the thing popping like a balloon

It`d be a lot more violent than that..you`d need the builders in afterwards

 

[tree farmer]

It`d be a lot more violent than that..you`d need the builders in afterwards [/QUOTE]

lol!!!!!!! just add the pressure refief valve and sleep well.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

Hi TMH
The 6800 runs on 24v ac and will deliver about 5.6gal/hr average between 60 and 90psi.
A saleman wouldn`t allow for the accumulator so they`ll always spec a bigger pump. With a 5gal tank even this little pump could run 16 nozzles (15.6LPH) on 2s/10mins and still only fire up for 4% of the day.

It`d be a lot more violent than that..you`d need the builders in afterwards

Yeah... I have a mortal fear of things exploding and ruining my pretty face

Just did a bit of checking, and it look like it would cost me about $28 for decent precision pressure relief valve... Figure another $20-30 or so for fitting.... $30 for the tank... Anyway... Figure around $200 or so with the new pump... Since the seeds are not here yet I'll plan on giving it a try

Though with the nozzles rated to flow 56Lph at 100 PSI... Hum... Well I guess I'll be running really short spray cycles...

I should be having some fun this coming week... I got a few configurations I want to try since it's going to have to be next month until I order this next round of goodies...

I plant on trying a pair of the solenoids running as pressure relief. I'll program the atmel to run them when the spray bars are closed.

I'm also going to try putting on at the end of the spray bar... Theory here is a bit different... I would run both the feed solenoid and the one on the end of the bar at the same time... And then close the one on the end a second or two after they are both opened... Idea being that the fluid would exit the bar primarily though the easy route until it's cut off... I'm sure I'll get some dibbling, but as long as it's low enough it's just going to go harmlessly to the bottom... I would expect this to give me a bit of a crisper response... But we will have to see...

 

[The Mad Hatter]

It`d be a lot more violent than that..you`d need the builders in afterwards

lol!!!!!!! just add the pressure refief valve and sleep well.[/QUOTE]

Not quite the same thing... But I saw a welding cylinder go through I cinder blow wall once in shop class.... Someone had not chained it up properly... And the place was a mess so somehow the thing fell and the regulator snapped off (No fancy plastic collars back in the day and woosh-boom!

Of course some idiot could have just hit it with a hammer... I had to teach about 5 of these kids how to measure... And this was high school! I think that was about the age when I realized the the human race was doomed

 

[tree farmer]

Yeah... I have a mortal fear of things exploding and ruining my pretty face

Just did a bit of checking, and it look like it would cost me about $28 for decent precision pressure relief valve... Figure another $20-30 or so for fitting.... $30 for the tank... Anyway... Figure around $200 or so with the new pump... Since the seeds are not here yet I'll plan on giving it a try

Though with the nozzles rated to flow 56Lph at 100 PSI... Hum... Well I guess I'll be running really short spray cycles...

I should be having some fun this coming week... I got a few configurations I want to try since it's going to have to be next month until I order this next round of goodies...

I plant on trying a pair of the solenoids running as pressure relief. I'll program the atmel to run them when the spray bars are closed.

I'm also going to try putting on at the end of the spray bar... Theory here is a bit different... I would run both the feed solenoid and the one on the end of the bar at the same time... And then close the one on the end a second or two after they are both opened... Idea being that the fluid would exit the bar primarily though the easy route until it's cut off... I'm sure I'll get some dibbling, but as long as it's low enough it's just going to go harmlessly to the bottom... I would expect this to give me a bit of a crisper response... But we will have to see...

the pressure relief valve you found is it brass or ss. if ss. where you find it.

i tryed in vain to find a reasonablely priced ss one but gave up and bought a brass one and put a check valve on it so whatever solution comes in contact with the brass can only go one way and not return into the system.

although i ran a brass solenoid for a few weeks and never saw any effects. i dont think it matters much as long as the solution isnt sitting for days in contact with the brass. then maybe some leaching could possibly happen but even then probably wouldnt affect the plants.

you have alot of options with that fancy controler to try different things. im sure i could learn to set up and program one but just to many other things i need to learn first.

i wouldnt worry to much about alittle dribble. although if it can be avoided all the better. on one of my pods with the shortest tube to it one mister always dribbled alittle as it seemed to act as the relief when the selonoid closed. this left a spot about the size of a quarter where the roots browned but it was very small and never affected anything around it.

dont you just love when you ask someone how long something is (when helping someone out)and they say 40 inches (or whatever) and 3 marks. this from grown adults so the high school kids isnt even bad.

finiished reworking my system. replaced all the tubing and misters with .04 oz per sec ones. it only took about 4 hrs to completly replace every piece of tubing in the whole system. i threw the fittings in a pail with some bleach and cut the tubing the same lengths as what came off and poped it back together. i really love the John guest fittings. so easy to replace shit. now i have a completly new system ready to go for less than 25 bucks. probably would have cost me mote in RO water and electricity to flush the old stuff out.

although when looking inside the tubing it sure still looked good. boy my LP systems use to really crude up. of coarse im only using a 3rd the amount of chemicals now.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

the pressure relief valve you found is it brass or ss. if ss. where you find it.

[...]

Sadly it was brass... The least expensive SS one I could find was around $100

http://www.mcmaster.com/
#98905k15

There is also the following:
#5784T12 Nickle plated brass

I figured I would just put it at a high point in the system or something similar... But I like your idea of the check valve better.

The micros can be a bit of a pain... I had a few C classes years back and that made it easier... Though there are quite a few nice multi-shot timers and various industrial controllers for under $300 or so... Quite a few have visual programing software that lets you set them up without writing a lick of code...

But like I said a while back... I'm permitting I intend to make this whole shebang open source... And programmable with an onboard interface... I've just been busy setting up everything else

Ultimately I would like to get custom boards made and perhaps sell kits or assembled units... But it's high time we had some decently priced highly customizable options.

T.M.H.

P.S. New vid up at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf4DmsOzJ-c

I had a bit to much fun with this one... So to save your sanity turn the volume down and just take a look at the spray shots toward the end... The kids should find it amusing though



javascript:TargetLink('TR2503','tr','PT25031','5784T12');

 

[tree farmer]

Sadly it was brass... The least expensive SS one I could find was around $100

http://www.mcmaster.com/
#98905k15

There is also the following:
#5784T12 Nickle plated brass

I figured I would just put it at a high point in the system or something similar... But I like your idea of the check valve better.

The micros can be a bit of a pain... I had a few C classes years back and that made it easier... Though there are quite a few nice multi-shot timers and various industrial controllers for under $300 or so... Quite a few have visual programing software that lets you set them up without writing a lick of code...

But like I said a while back... I'm permitting I intend to make this whole shebang open source... And programmable with an onboard interface... I've just been busy setting up everything else

Ultimately I would like to get custom boards made and perhaps sell kits or assembled units... But it's high time we had some decently priced highly customizable options.

T.M.H.

P.S. New vid up at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf4DmsOzJ-c

I had a bit to much fun with this one... So to save your sanity turn the volume down and just take a look at the spray shots toward the end... The kids should find it amusing though

the video looks cool. from the shots of the mist youll be drenching them with that setting. i know your just playing now but that is way to much mist. are you going to keep the top and bottom spray bars installed or are you just using for testing.

if my math is right (wheres atomizer when you need him )those nozzels will be putting 1/2 oz per sec into the 5 gallon bucket. my four new nozzels combined will only put .16 oz per sec into 20 gallon container.

it sure is a cool looking setup just hope you can get the mist cycle short enough so you can get the HP effect. only time will tell for sure. love the flow indicator. with an accumulator its going to be quiet in there. youll only here pisssst.

i checked out the ss valve. not bad for the price although i dont like ones that vent to open air. as it might be a hell of a mess if it does pop especially with HPS going on in the same room.my brass one has the seperate line that i just return back to the feed res.

 

[Atomizer]

Sorry for the delay TF
Its 31.11ml per second for tmh`s nozzle and 1.18ml per second for yours.
The video is much better than the last one

 

[The Mad Hatter]

the video looks cool. from the shots of the mist youll be drenching them with that setting. i know your just playing now but that is way to much mist. are you going to keep the top and bottom spray bars installed or are you just using for testing.

if my math is right (wheres atomizer when you need him )those nozzels will be putting 1/2 oz per sec into the 5 gallon bucket. my four new nozzels combined will only put .16 oz per sec into 20 gallon container.

it sure is a cool looking setup just hope you can get the mist cycle short enough so you can get the HP effect. only time will tell for sure. love the flow indicator. with an accumulator its going to be quiet in there. youll only here pisssst.

i checked out the ss valve. not bad for the price although i dont like ones that vent to open air. as it might be a hell of a mess if it does pop especially with HPS going on in the same room.my brass one has the seperate line that i just return back to the feed res.

Thanks man, I had a good time making it... Just wish my camera was a bit better.

You math checks I came up with 32 OZ/min or ~ .53 OZ/sec

I seem to recall that my solenoids were rated at 0.1sec open/close time (Though I can't seem to verify this now)... Which would mean that the absolute best case minimum would be 0.053 OZ per shot. So I guess with the accumulator and some timing adjustments I should be able to get something similar to what your shooting for. I guess I still need to account for the time required to bring the line to pressure etc... Though I had a thought on that. I was thinking that I could run the spray bar into the bottom of the buckets, near the drain valve. Doing so would; keep them full at all times, eliminate the dripping problem, and should give me better coverage. I know leaks won't be a major issue, I've had a bucket sitting with the side mounted nozzle full of water for days and didn't see so much as a drip around the gasket (I had to use a soap solution to get the nozzles through). So it should work... I can even cary a row of buckets around by the manifold without them even slipping

I still can't believe I got the flow meter for $10... Since it was so inexpensive I got some small SS tube and cut bits to cover up the bolts... I think my love of shiny things has become a compulsion

As for the pop off valve, you could just plump the thing so it fires right into your res... Or fit it through an end cap into some PVC that drains somewhere harmless... It would be a damn tragedy pop the lights. I had forgotten how expensive the bulbs were until I picked one up a few months back... Seems to be the only thing that has not come down much in price... Which is odd given that there seems to be about 4 times the number of bulb vendors now... It's funny how much industry we support



T.M.H.

 

[Atomizer]

Hi TMH
My solenoid/timer relay delays add just over 0.4 seconds to the misting duration, i think a good proportion of that comes from the water pressure dropping to the adv shutoff point. The shortest pulse i`ve managed is 0.7 sec which delivers a fraction under 1ml (0.0338 us fl.oz) per 5lph nozzle.
The limiting factor seems to be how fast the pressure can respond so logically a high pressure with a very tight deadband (say 90-100psi swing) should help. The tight deadband will reduce the drawdown time on the tank but thats no problem as you wouldn`t use half as much water with that kind of pulse control.
Yet more avenues to explore

 

[The Mad Hatter]

Hi TMH
My solenoid/timer relay delays add just over 0.4 seconds to the misting duration, i think a good proportion of that comes from the water pressure dropping to the adv shutoff point. The shortest pulse i`ve managed is 0.7 sec which delivers a fraction under 1ml (0.0338 us fl.oz) per 5lph nozzle.
The limiting factor seems to be how fast the pressure can respond so logically a high pressure with a very tight deadband (say 90-100psi swing) should help. The tight deadband will reduce the drawdown time on the tank but thats no problem as you wouldn`t use half as much water with that kind of pulse control.
Yet more avenues to explore

Good to know I'm in the process of hooking up the pressure sensor now now... Should have my computer set up down there by the end of the day too... So I expect to be able to get some more hard info. I have a second sensor head so I'm going to sub that in for one of the nozzles and take a direct reading right from there... Hook the analogue out up to the scope and graph it. I love this shit!

Props being dedicated to the science man, I really admire how you work.

I was able to find the spec and they say the solenoids actually should be > 20 msec! So the... Um... I don't know what to call it... Hydrodynamics perhaps? will undoubtedly be the limiting factor.

I'm just itching to go snag on of those tanks now... I can use the pressure sensors control head to drive a SSR for the pump... Even without the microcontroller (which is good IMHO, something like that I prefer to be independent)...

Of course the company keeps jocking me for their "demo" units back... Going to have to come up with an excuse there Every other company that I've ever got a demo from didn't expect it returned at the end of the day... But I guess with these little buggers costing a few hundred each... Ah well... I figure something out... "Yeah sorry man... I burned the lab down.."

T.M.H.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

Well now here is an unfortunate supprise... I'm only seeing about 60psi at the manifold even with the return almost all the way closed! I tried bypassing the filter and that didn't do anything (which is good in a way... nice to know that it's not really adding any losses)... But still... I can't believe that a few feet of head (last test rig compared to this one is actually causing that much loss... I was getting upwards of 140 psi with the return closed down that much before.

I can't imagine the flow guage is doing it either... But perhaps that's wishful thinking... It is a rather large flow impediment.... I guess I'll have to pull it out and see what happens... I'm going to be really sad if that's doing it though.

T.M.H.

 

[tree farmer]

Well now here is an unfortunate supprise... I'm only seeing about 60psi at the manifold even with the return almost all the way closed! I tried bypassing the filter and that didn't do anything (which is good in a way... nice to know that it's not really adding any losses)... But still... I can't believe that a few feet of head (last test rig compared to this one is actually causing that much loss... I was getting upwards of 140 psi with the return closed down that much before.

I can't imagine the flow guage is doing it either... But perhaps that's wishful thinking... It is a rather large flow impediment.... I guess I'll have to pull it out and see what happens... I'm going to be really sad if that's doing it though.

T.M.H.

wow 140 psi you were getting out of that thing. man you dont need a different pump if that thing can pump up to that pressure.

get the accumulator and set it for around 80-100. that should fire those nozzels real nice. and that pump should be able to pump the accumulator to those pressures easily.

that is surprising that the pressure has went down that much. i know i wouldnt rest until i figured out which component was doing it. or if it is the extra piping.

do you have the model number of the pump id like to look at the specs. i went to harbor frieght but didnt see one that looked quit like yours. is that thing around 1 hp.