Obama kills the NASA Constellation program...so much for space

CrackerJax

New Member
Pray tell, how does NASA extort money again?

I'm against wasteful spending and the health care bill is so atrocious it cannot stand without a super majority.

There's a difference. Like I said, I'm not against govt. programs which actually come up with results.

It's about the only ray of sunshine that come from our tax dollars.

I'm not inconsistent at all.... and I don't just categorize everything together...issue by issue.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Pray tell, how does NASA extort money again?

I'm against wasteful spending and the health care bill is so atrocious it cannot stand without a super majority.

There's a difference. Like I said, I'm not against govt. programs which actually come up with results.

It's about the only ray of sunshine that come from our tax dollars.

I'm not inconsistent at all.... and I don't just categorize everything together...issue by issue.

To my knowledge NASA doesn't do the extorting, that is another well known government department that does it for them.

If NASA is not voluntarily PRIVATELY funded, it must be funded by the public.
Some of that public I presume, ahem "donate" involuntarily.

Involuntary donations are extortion, right? What other term could possibly be used to describe an involuntary taking that isn't a term relying upon rationalization?

I consistently oppose involuntary taxation regardless of the issue. I consistently oppose using force against otherwise peaceful people. I do not flip flop on that depending upon the issue. Theft is theft. I don't care what "good deed" the robber may state he's going to do for me. The "good deed" is cancelled by the act of theft and the fact that I did not authorize the taking.

You are a smart guy, but I maintain you are like many and do not recognize that in order to have freedom, the freedom of others that do not aggress against us must be respected....always.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Nasa is public...that is no secret to anyone (but you?)

According to ur standard, all taxes are extorted.....
 
P

PadawanBater

Guest
Nasa is public...that is no secret to anyone (but you?)

According to ur standard, all taxes are extorted.....
How is that relevant?

Public, private, the government still steals our money to pay for it, whether we support what they decide to spend it on or not, right?

Extortion. Rob's right.
 

redivider

Well-Known Member
NACA, the predecessor to NASA, began under the auspices of the U.S. Navy, which is Constitutional.

At the time the NACA was eliminated and its assets transferred into the newly created NASA, the Cold War was at a fever pitch. A year earlier in 1957, the Soviets launched Sputnik. And they subsequently reached many, if not most, of the early milestones in space exploration. And had the U.S. continued Apollo to its logical conclusion, any Moon base would most surely be a military installation at some level.

NASA is a quasi-military civilian agency. But even with civilian status, it is an agency dedicated to National Security because outer space can become weaponized (if it has not already). A civilian space agency is not as threatening to other nations as a military space program would be. And because of it's civilian status, not all of its focus need be on discoveries and technologies specific to military applications.

The Constitution is a timeless document. The framers did not need to foresee space travel any more than they had to understand a Boeing 747 as a means of transportation.

I believe an argument could be made that NASA is Constitutional. And if I am wrong, it should be folded into the Pentagon's space program. Most people don't realize the U.S. has two.
private companies are the ones that build weapons, missiles, planes, aircraft carriers, guns, etc. etc.

other nations could care less if the US wastes all of it's money sending rockets into space... if you didn't notice, they are HERE on EARTH, not in space. so if the US wants to launch it's most sophisticated, most expensive, most destructive warhead into space.... all the nations on earth will sit by and watch with glee....

and you're mistaken. most of the research that happens in space will end up having a military application at one point or another...

there is nothing wrong with a civilian space agency. i have no problems with it....

some argue that safety is an issue... the companies aren't going to spend 1 billion dollars building a rocket just so it can explode and kill the astronauts... so that argument is bullshit.... some cite the profit motive as a problem, NASA outsources building of components in space vehicles anyways, so those companies are making a profit, regardless of who's covering the bill, it's 30-40% of costs as profit....

i think making space exploration a civilian thing is going to be very hard not because of the government giving up anything, or safety, or costs, or any of the other bullshit arguments....

it's going to be hard because the US prohibits launching of any rocket with a guidance system, unless it's done by NASA, or other government agencies. a rocket with a guidance system, and the ability to steer is in all essence a missile. space exploration was never about discovering space. it's never been about the 'final frontier', no matter how beautiful Kennedy's speech was.

it's always been about who can launch the biggest missile the farthest, carrying the biggest payload, and getting that where you want it to go, whether it's in space, or here on earth.... the US hasn't been launching scientists into space for the hell of it, it hasn't been for the science. it's a flex of the muscles, to show how we can repeatedly launch big rockets, carrying big payloads, reliably and efficiently..... and the space shuttle is just a front.... that type of vehicle, one that can be launched into space, leave it for a week, then have it return in one piece, and have it land wherever you want it to is one hell of a weapon. it's not a taxi or a 'shuttle' into space....

there's also the national security issue. how would the international community react to there being a sudden increase in launching pads, tests, and overall investment in what's basically a way to launch ICBMs?? i don't think our neighbors will be too happy to see this new arms race begin...
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
private companies are the ones that build weapons, missiles, planes, aircraft carriers, guns, etc. etc.

other nations could care less if the US wastes all of it's money sending rockets into space... if you didn't notice, they are HERE on EARTH, not in space. so if the US wants to launch it's most sophisticated, most expensive, most destructive warhead into space.... all the nations on earth will sit by and watch with glee....
Exploration is not about who is where now. It is about who will be where in the future.

Take a look at all the countries with active space programs. Have a gander at the ISS and then tell me with a straight face that other nations are strictly HERE on EARTH.
and you're mistaken. most of the research that happens in space will end up having a military application at one point or another...
I am most certainly not mistaken. NASA diverts attention away from the Pentagon's classified space program.

NASA can happily study tadpoles in orbit, space telescopes, and rovers on Mars; while the Pentagon is focused on a a military strategy for outer space.

The Pentagon's space program develops tactics and possibly deploys space weaponry. Meanwhile some of the pure science developed by the civilian agency is available for their use. Some, not all.

For your benefit I will quote myself since you obviously missed it the first time.
A civilian space agency is not as threatening to other nations as a military space program would be. And because of it's civilian status, not all of its focus need be on discoveries and technologies specific to military applications.
there is nothing wrong with a civilian space agency. i have no problems with it....

some argue that safety is an issue... the companies aren't going to spend 1 billion dollars building a rocket just so it can explode and kill the astronauts... so that argument is bullshit.... some cite the profit motive as a problem, NASA outsources building of components in space vehicles anyways, so those companies are making a profit, regardless of who's covering the bill, it's 30-40% of costs as profit....

i think making space exploration a civilian thing is going to be very hard not because of the government giving up anything, or safety, or costs, or any of the other bullshit arguments....

it's going to be hard because the US prohibits launching of any rocket with a guidance system, unless it's done by NASA, or other government agencies. a rocket with a guidance system, and the ability to steer is in all essence a missile. space exploration was never about discovering space. it's never been about the 'final frontier', no matter how beautiful Kennedy's speech was.

it's always been about who can launch the biggest missile the farthest, carrying the biggest payload, and getting that where you want it to go, whether it's in space, or here on earth.... the US hasn't been launching scientists into space for the hell of it, it hasn't been for the science. it's a flex of the muscles, to show how we can repeatedly launch big rockets, carrying big payloads, reliably and efficiently..... and the space shuttle is just a front.... that type of vehicle, one that can be launched into space, leave it for a week, then have it return in one piece, and have it land wherever you want it to is one hell of a weapon. it's not a taxi or a 'shuttle' into space....

there's also the national security issue. how would the international community react to there being a sudden increase in launching pads, tests, and overall investment in what's basically a way to launch ICBMs?? i don't think our neighbors will be too happy to see this new arms race begin...
NASA is a civilian agency now.

If private companies wish to develop space travel here, it's nobody's business but ours.

And who really gives a shit what other nations think?

If they object too strenuously they are welcome to try to stop us.

I can only hope our 'leadership' here would have the balls to tell them it would better for them to mind their own business.
 

redivider

Well-Known Member
there are 5, 6 nations that have people in the ISS, but who's paying for that?? the US is.

and i didn't say NASA's discoveries, i said all of the discoveries made in space have some sort of military application. but that goes to all discoveries so there's really nothing new there.

and the pentagon's 'secret' space program is only secret to you and me. other nations are fully aware of what the pentagon does in space, they dnt care because if the US wants to militarize space all it wants ok. there's 4 billion humans on earth. there's about 15 in space.

and it's not about other nations trying to stop the US. they obviously don't care, because they know the real issues to deal with are right here at spaceship earth, not in space.

i'm not worried about that...

the national security issues become important when you realize that the military needs to be in control of all major weaponry that's launched in the US. there's a very serious risk involved if the US allows a private corporation to own, maintain, and improve rockets without close scrutiny. it gives private corporations an opportunity to start building a military style arsenal, under the guise that it's just a rocket to launch into space. that's a serious security risk for the authority of the US government, and the constituents it's supposed to represent.

that's why i see a problem with it.... its more about what can happen to the security of the people of the world if companies build huge arsenals that rival the governments of this earth..... it has the potential to change the political landscape as we know it...

of course this is a worse case scenario, and personally i think companies should cmpete for space... even when i consider my worse of the worse doomsday scenarios....

NASA did a horrible HORRIBLE job these last 20 years....

they retired the shuttle, without having any feasible alternative... there's new vehicles being designed but they won't be ready until acouple of years.... it's embarrassing.... what is supposed to be the authority in space exploration and development doesn't even have a ride to space....

that's why i think companies should be allowed to compete. NASA is doing a bad job, giving america a bad name, and wasting billions of dollars on incomplete programs.

and FYI, OBAMA DIDN'T KILL THE CONSTELLATION PROGRAM, THE EXPERTS WERE THE ONES CRITICIZING IT. I'M PRETTY SURE OBAMA DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THAT WAS, WHAT ITS PURPOSE WAS, HOW MUCH IT WAS GONNA COST... HE COULD CARE LESS ABOUT SPACE, HE'S A LAWYER, NOT A PHYSICIST. APPARENTLY THERE WAS GENERAL CONSENSUS AMONG SCIENTISTS THAT THE CONSTELLATION PROGRAM SHOULD BE CANCELED. SO IT WAS. IT ALSO ISN'T OBAMA'S FAULT NASA DOESN'T HAVE A FUCKING RIDE TO SPACE. IT'S NASA'S FAULT FOR NOT PLANNING AHEAD. I KNEW THERE WAS GOING TO BE A 3-7 YEAR GAP BETWEEN THE SPACE SHUTTLE RETIRING AND THE NEW VEHICLES BEING MADE OPERATIONAL A FEW YEARS BACK BEFORE OBAMA, BEFORE MCCAIN AND PALIN, BEFORE THE KERRY VS. BUSH ELECTION..... BLAMING OBAMA FOR NASA'S NEED TO OUTSOURCE IT'S RIDE TO SPACE SHOWS HOW OUT OF TOUCH WITH THE SUBJECT SOME OF THE PEOPLE HERE ARE.
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
there are 5, 6 nations that have people in the ISS, but who's paying for that?? the US is.

and i didn't say NASA's discoveries, i said all of the discoveries made in space have some sort of military application. but that goes to all discoveries so there's really nothing new there.

and the pentagon's 'secret' space program is only secret to you and me. other nations are fully aware of what the pentagon does in space, they dnt care because if the US wants to militarize space all it wants ok. there's 4 billion humans on earth. there's about 15 in space.

and it's not about other nations trying to stop the US. they obviously don't care, because they know the real issues to deal with are right here at spaceship earth, not in space.

i'm not worried about that...

the national security issues become important when you realize that the military needs to be in control of all major weaponry that's launched in the US. there's a very serious risk involved if the US allows a private corporation to own, maintain, and improve rockets without close scrutiny. it gives private corporations an opportunity to start building a military style arsenal, under the guise that it's just a rocket to launch into space. that's a serious security risk for the authority of the US government, and the constituents it's supposed to represent.

that's why i see a problem with it.... its more about what can happen to the security of the people of the world if companies build huge arsenals that rival the governments of this earth..... it has the potential to change the political landscape as we know it...

of course this is a worse case scenario, and personally i think companies should cmpete for space... even when i consider my worse of the worse doomsday scenarios....

NASA did a horrible HORRIBLE job these last 20 years....

they retired the shuttle, without having any feasible alternative... there's new vehicles being designed but they won't be ready until acouple of years.... it's embarrassing.... what is supposed to be the authority in space exploration and development doesn't even have a ride to space....

that's why i think companies should be allowed to compete. NASA is doing a bad job, giving america a bad name, and wasting billions of dollars on incomplete programs.

and FYI, OBAMA DIDN'T KILL THE CONSTELLATION PROGRAM, THE EXPERTS WERE THE ONES CRITICIZING IT. I'M PRETTY SURE OBAMA DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THAT WAS, WHAT ITS PURPOSE WAS, HOW MUCH IT WAS GONNA COST... HE COULD CARE LESS ABOUT SPACE, HE'S A LAWYER, NOT A PHYSICIST. APPARENTLY THERE WAS GENERAL CONSENSUS AMONG SCIENTISTS THAT THE CONSTELLATION PROGRAM SHOULD BE CANCELED. SO IT WAS. IT ALSO ISN'T OBAMA'S FAULT NASA DOESN'T HAVE A FUCKING RIDE TO SPACE. IT'S NASA'S FAULT FOR NOT PLANNING AHEAD. I KNEW THERE WAS GOING TO BE A 3-7 YEAR GAP BETWEEN THE SPACE SHUTTLE RETIRING AND THE NEW VEHICLES BEING MADE OPERATIONAL A FEW YEARS BACK BEFORE OBAMA, BEFORE MCCAIN AND PALIN, BEFORE THE KERRY VS. BUSH ELECTION..... BLAMING OBAMA FOR NASA'S NEED TO OUTSOURCE IT'S RIDE TO SPACE SHOWS HOW OUT OF TOUCH WITH THE SUBJECT SOME OF THE PEOPLE HERE ARE.
We have already established that the problems with the space program up to his administration should not be laid at this doorstep.

Yes, the space bus is obsolete and it's discontinuation will cause a gap in the United States' ability to reach space. But that is precisely what the Constellation Program is meant to remedy. It is the next phase in manned space exploration for NASA.

Obama is the PRESIDENT. He's not a doctor, yet nobody on the Left questions his authority to dictate health coverage for the country. It matters not what he was in his previous life: Be it community organizer or side-show freak. As such, a decision to cancel the Constellation Program will be on him.

Where are all these experts who urge the dismantling of the Constellation Program specifically? Where is your consensus? Sources please.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
It's all about diverting every possible tax dollar to his atrocious and expensive new policies..... he can't cover his own costs and is now pulling the plug on any revenue he doesn't agree with.

It's not about space ... and that's the problem...the space program actually has MERIT. One of the few tax programs that is giving us back something we ordinarily wouldn't get.

Obama is a low brow President, and ill equipped to make top tier decisions wisely.

He's not fit. Not at all.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
It's all about diverting every possible tax dollar to his atrocious and expensive new policies..... he can't cover his own costs and is now pulling the plug on any revenue he doesn't agree with.

It's not about space ... and that's the problem...the space program actually has MERIT. One of the few tax programs that is giving us back something we ordinarily wouldn't get.

Obama is a low brow President, and ill equipped to make top tier decisions wisely.

He's not fit. Not at all.
While I agree that a Space program may have merit, the problem arises with who and how it is decided which programs have merit.
Any time you have person A making decisions for person B, the question of merit becomes very arbitrary. Your argument could just as easily be used by a person that says, "free healthcare" has more merit than space travel. To allow government to be the final arbiter has led to huge "customer" dissatisfaction and record debt.

That is why ultimately, I believe in letting those who desire something form coalitions with others of a like mind. Those that do not desire the service or program are free not to participate.

Some people would say this won't work etc. I would say if your idea, has merit others will recognize it, just like they would a valuable tangible product in the free market.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Nasa is public...that is no secret to anyone (but you?)

According to ur standard, all taxes are extorted.....
Taxes are extortion. Not by my standard, but by any reasonable interpretation of the meaning of the words.

The fact that it is government doing the extortion changes nothing. The government does not own the right to redefine the very meaning of words simply because they are government.
Although they really do try. If anybody else did what they did we would surely call it extortion.

The only "reason" anyone could say taxes aren't extortion is if they were all given voluntarily, which we know they are not.

Anyhow name some taxes that aren't extortion if you disagree.
 
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