Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
I think you're referring to a hormonal response called phototropism, has nothing to do with the spectrum, unless a certain spectrum influences the auxins found in the stem/petiole tissue, which I don't believe it does.
Lumens Vs Spectrum
- Thread starter RickWhite
- Start date
RickWhite
Well-Known Member
Yes PAR watts. And from what I am finding most of the HPS bulbs do emit the highest PAR watts even though their graphs suggest otherwise. I don't think the theories are wrong, just that they are not well represented by those color spectrum graphs. I have experience producing graphs of this type so I know how missleading they can be.
See, because a HPS makes a huge yellow spike, the whole graph is pushed way down. That is why I would like access to such a graph. I would omit the yellow spike which would bring the rest of the graph up so we could see the rest of the spectrum.
From my Googling, it appears this might be the best HPS on the market. And it is made by an impressive company.
http://www.ushio.com/files/specs/hiluxgro.pdf
The Hotilux, Sunmaster and Sylvania also claim high PAR wattages. I ran across a list somewhere but can't find it now.
GrowingfortheGold
New Member
Most people think that you have phytocromes and cryptochromes. The first respond to red light and the latter responds blue light.
It isn't as simple as that. Phytocrome-B also responds to Blue light.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that plants are very vry complex entities...much like anything else that is living. It is more of a sum of parts that affects plant growth than say one variable (spectrum). Nonetheless, I will continue to use super blue for my veg. Although it is worthy to note that many super blue bulbs emit a lot of UV light. This UV light can easily bleach a young plant. Simple fix is to get an air cooled hood as the glass pane will absorb and lower total UV output.
Study on auxins and light spectrum in moss. Light spectrum does effect auxin development, however the overall extent is debatable. Cryptochromes do not solely regulate auxin development so like I said sum of the parts...
Summary
http://www.plantcell.org/cgi/content/abstract/14/2/373
The actual study
www.plantcell.org/cgi/reprint/14/2/373.pdf
-GFTG
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Those lamps look good. When my old HPS went down, this is what I bought. http://www.wholesale-garden.com/article_bss228131.asp
RickWhite
Well-Known Member
UB, that is supposed to be one of the best bulbs from what I can find.
It is too bad more manufacturers don't advertise PAR wattage or publish more concrete data on their lamps. Sunmaster does publish PAR wattage. And the Growlux you linked to claims to have the highest PAR of any US made bulb. I think the Hortilux is somewhere around 211.
Anyway, so far the only thing known for sure is that LEDs emit far better PAR on a watt per watt basis but they are just too expensive to be in the running. It would be nice if the price of these comes down.
It is too bad more manufacturers don't advertise PAR wattage or publish more concrete data on their lamps. Sunmaster does publish PAR wattage. And the Growlux you linked to claims to have the highest PAR of any US made bulb. I think the Hortilux is somewhere around 211.
Anyway, so far the only thing known for sure is that LEDs emit far better PAR on a watt per watt basis but they are just too expensive to be in the running. It would be nice if the price of these comes down.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
LED lighting will replace most lighting, I think. Prices will surely come down but for now HID is the best bang for the buck.
FuZZyBUDz
Well-Known Member
i wouldnt mind using LED, mayb along the sides or the bottom of my grow room, but i really couldnt afford it.
figtree
Active Member
Yes phototropism, if its not the spectrum the plants liking then what is it that makes it "PHOTOTROP"? same types of bulbs, same strain, same watttage, same lumens, same distance from the canopy, only difference is the spectrum, yet per my observations the 6500kelvin generates more growth, faster growth, and stretching towards that specific spectrum. What other factors would be in play in this situation that would make it stretch towards a certain spectrum?
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Don't know, since you said, "the plants tend to lean and grow towards the bluer of the light 6500 kelvin."
Phototropism, aka leaning, is caused by the elongation of the stem cells on the shady side of a stem which tilts it towards the light source. Without spectral output graphs and daily observations it's anybody's guess.
RickWhite
Well-Known Member
Yes, but on a watt per watt basis LEDs crush HID.
Natures Cure
Active Member
Rick the only real answer to that is to mix your spectrums . . . ideally you can use 1 600w MH and 1 600w HPS.
the only downside is heat.
& 
figtree
Active Member
Taking everything into consideration, and finding the only difference between the 2 light sources being the spectrum (color tempurature) wouldnt that tell you that it is the spectrum (color temp)? if there are no other variables, couldnt we use the scientific theory of hokums razor in this case? or would we just say its anybodies guess? and throw out our nightly observations.
UB, I'm not trying to dispute you by any means, i take your advice to heart. i am trying to grasp this theory of yours that spectrum is not important, am i reading you correctly?
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
No, you're not reading me correctly. I don't think getting anal about it and dealing in theories amounts to anything more than forum fodder. Mine is not theory, mine is real world application. "In theory", a 6500K lamp would produce less stretch being that it contains more blues.
Have you ever grown cannabis using a plain jane MH or HPS exclusively from start to finish? Yes or no?
BTW, I also studied photomorphogenesis to death. Check it out.
UB
RickWhite
Well-Known Member
WTF? Occam's razor isn't a scientific theory. More of a rule of thumb and sometimes a fallacy.
Plants are complex organisms and it is possible that a given wavelength of light could cause more photo-tropism than another without causing more over all growth.
In doing more research, I have found that the HPS bulbs do actually have better spectrums than the others in terms of PAR watts.
See, graphs can be very misleading. Especially given something this complex. What do you suppose those HPS spectrums would look like if we took out the tall yellow spike? They might actually look better.
For now, all we have is PAR watts and the HPS are proving to be best.
figtree
Active Member
Oops sorry guys, just trying to figure this stuff out. Guess i shouldnt medicate before i post.
UB again, not trying to dispute you at all. by no means.
I curently use hps.
I will step aside, cuz i have no idea. just trying to learn and use my observations, and bounce them off someone that has a greater understanding of it.
I will just watch this thread and learn from now on.
Peace, good luck on your grows yall.
UB again, not trying to dispute you at all. by no means.
I curently use hps.
I will step aside, cuz i have no idea. just trying to learn and use my observations, and bounce them off someone that has a greater understanding of it.
I will just watch this thread and learn from now on.
Peace, good luck on your grows yall.
figtree
Active Member
For Rick: I was refering to line #2
and your right its not a theory, its a principal...... sorry for being medicated.
Noun
Occam’s razor
1.The principle that entities should not be needlessly multiplied.
2.(sciences) The principle of preferring the simpler of two competing theories.
OK, now I'll just watch and keep my mouth shut!
and your right its not a theory, its a principal...... sorry for being medicated.
Noun
Occam’s razor
1.The principle that entities should not be needlessly multiplied.
2.(sciences) The principle of preferring the simpler of two competing theories.
OK, now I'll just watch and keep my mouth shut!
Philip Burek
New Member
Ed Rosenthal's book will answer all your questions for 30 bucks. I learned from basically green to producing 21.5% thc .8% cbd. Sour Tangie Crocket's cut.
Philip Burek
New Member
Plants use about10%Lumens Vs Spectrum
I'm not sure, exactly, what you're asking! But how's this?
A whole bunch of lumens won't do a damn bit of good, if they're the wrong spectrum. But even a single, little 25 watt, "Daylight" CFL will Veg something - impressively well!
"Spectrum" is of paramount importance, "lumens" is a slippery slope!
Philip Burek
New Member
Lumens make a big difference when they are in the proper spectrum. Plants convert chlorophyll a-b & beta carotene into sugars/foods by absorbing light mostly from the red and blue spectrum. I use a 2100k 1000w Plantmax HPS with 8 T5 fluorescents 4-6500k and 4 hortilux UVA/UVB spectrum in a 5'.5" x 5'.5". The plants thrive and the buds drip...but lighting can be mixed with great results. I have never tried CMH... Just make sure you are getting UVB/UVB it does increase THC.