MY True HP Aero Plug&Play Pods
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sherriberry
New Member
Not necessarily
You see, there are 2 flow rates, that of your sump pump to your res, and that of your gravity lines to your tubs.
Gravity lines are not infinite in diameter... and thus, there is a max rate of flow that will occur.
Its simple trial and error of putting on a smaller orfice on the 2 pipes that gravity feed to the tubs
Now, if power goes out, i understand what you are saying... then water level will rise becuase the sump pump cant outrun the gravity feed lines flow rates.
my diagram is showing the tubs from the thin side, keep in mind, these are the giant rubbermaids that are 44 gallons.
x5, thats over 200 gallons.
My res will be 100 gallons, if that...
so understand... there will be no flooding.
Ive thought about getting fancy and keeping the water level at 3 inches if the power goes out...
but why?
let it rise and protect all those little aero roots that... other people
... say will surely die.
the system has built in safeties that i dont think are apparent at first glance.
Majority of roots go under bubbled water if power goes out
You see, there are 2 flow rates, that of your sump pump to your res, and that of your gravity lines to your tubs.
Gravity lines are not infinite in diameter... and thus, there is a max rate of flow that will occur.
Its simple trial and error of putting on a smaller orfice on the 2 pipes that gravity feed to the tubs
Now, if power goes out, i understand what you are saying... then water level will rise becuase the sump pump cant outrun the gravity feed lines flow rates.
my diagram is showing the tubs from the thin side, keep in mind, these are the giant rubbermaids that are 44 gallons.
x5, thats over 200 gallons.
My res will be 100 gallons, if that...
so understand... there will be no flooding.
Ive thought about getting fancy and keeping the water level at 3 inches if the power goes out...
but why?
let it rise and protect all those little aero roots that... other people
... say will surely die.the system has built in safeties that i dont think are apparent at first glance.
Majority of roots go under bubbled water if power goes out
sherriberry
New Member
it is important to understand that sump pump's flow MUST BE MADE GREATER than the gravity line flow.
This means EVENTUALLY the tubs will always run dry.
This is where the float level switch comes in..>
that can either KILL the sump pump to let the gravity lines catch up, and fill the tubs some more
OR
float level switch can open the solenoid, allowing the water to simply fall right back into the middle tub, and thus, no water is shot back to the Main res, and thus, tubs levels start to raise up while solenoid is open...
until float switch raises again, and then solenoid closes, and water starts going to the main res once again... until the sump eventually outruns flow rates of gravity lines... again.
Plus... if there is a CLOG in any of the gravity lines, the sump doesnt burn itself out... water in middle tub gets low... it stops pumping water to the main res.
Its a pimp ass design, i know
This means EVENTUALLY the tubs will always run dry.
This is where the float level switch comes in..>
that can either KILL the sump pump to let the gravity lines catch up, and fill the tubs some more
OR
float level switch can open the solenoid, allowing the water to simply fall right back into the middle tub, and thus, no water is shot back to the Main res, and thus, tubs levels start to raise up while solenoid is open...
until float switch raises again, and then solenoid closes, and water starts going to the main res once again... until the sump eventually outruns flow rates of gravity lines... again.
Plus... if there is a CLOG in any of the gravity lines, the sump doesnt burn itself out... water in middle tub gets low... it stops pumping water to the main res.
Its a pimp ass design, i know
sherriberry
New Member
hypothetically, you could have a 300 gallon res... and have it pretty much full...
And if power went out, 200 of that 300 gallons would go into the tubs and fill them all the way, and the res itself would still hold some of the water... maybe 100 gal or so... depends on the width of the res.
but... just making a point... the sysetm will hold a lot of water before flooding.
Now understand... you dont have to limit yoruself to 5 tubs...
you could do 3... or you could do 11
Its all the same
just put the sump in the middle tub, and all flows through all tubs will be equal and will occur as gravity does its job.
This system is modular for sure.. and these are plug and play tubs....
SImply put a kork stopper in the 2 hoses that connect each tub when you want to remove a tub.
And when you do remove a tub, draining it is cake... you just tilt it, and then lift it above the 3 inch mark... and its going to drain into the other tubs...
you just gotta put the gravity feed line from the res into another tub so that it quits filling the one you are going to remove.
And if power went out, 200 of that 300 gallons would go into the tubs and fill them all the way, and the res itself would still hold some of the water... maybe 100 gal or so... depends on the width of the res.
but... just making a point... the sysetm will hold a lot of water before flooding.
Now understand... you dont have to limit yoruself to 5 tubs...
you could do 3... or you could do 11
Its all the same
just put the sump in the middle tub, and all flows through all tubs will be equal and will occur as gravity does its job.
This system is modular for sure.. and these are plug and play tubs....
SImply put a kork stopper in the 2 hoses that connect each tub when you want to remove a tub.
And when you do remove a tub, draining it is cake... you just tilt it, and then lift it above the 3 inch mark... and its going to drain into the other tubs...
you just gotta put the gravity feed line from the res into another tub so that it quits filling the one you are going to remove.
OregonMeds
Well-Known Member
Ok my man, can't wait to see what happens with that setup.
It would be really beneficial to see what happens as your setup progresses and you transition to hp aero on it, save me from testing the same things.
Honestly though isn't rdwc dd style more productive than lp aero by a good margin? I think you need hp aero and rdwc to make it really worth while.
It would be really beneficial to see what happens as your setup progresses and you transition to hp aero on it, save me from testing the same things.
Honestly though isn't rdwc dd style more productive than lp aero by a good margin? I think you need hp aero and rdwc to make it really worth while.
ok, as most submersible pumps with floating switches "make" when the water level falls, i`ll assume the floatswitch does the same thing. So when the water level drops below 3", the pump has to switch off. Attached pic shows the relay and floatswitch wiring.
If you use a (normally closed) solenoid, it will have to switch on when the level drops..so you will need to connect that to the n/o relay contacts instead (the unused ones in the pic) to power it up and open the valve.
The relay needs to be a 12v dc coil DPDT with contacts rated for at least 120V ac.
Your misting solenoid would be wired the same as per the pump diagram, except that relay will use a 120v ac coil. Your cycle timer connects to the coil terminals. When the timer is on its `pause` cycle (ie off lol) the solenoid has power (open to res). When the timer is `on`, the relay disconnects the power and the solenoid closes..diverting flow to the misters
If you use a (normally closed) solenoid, it will have to switch on when the level drops..so you will need to connect that to the n/o relay contacts instead (the unused ones in the pic) to power it up and open the valve.
The relay needs to be a 12v dc coil DPDT with contacts rated for at least 120V ac.
Your misting solenoid would be wired the same as per the pump diagram, except that relay will use a 120v ac coil. Your cycle timer connects to the coil terminals. When the timer is on its `pause` cycle (ie off lol) the solenoid has power (open to res). When the timer is `on`, the relay disconnects the power and the solenoid closes..diverting flow to the misters
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sherriberry
New Member
what a lot of people dont understand, even hp aero guys dont understand...
is surface area and total volume of roots.
in the dd bucket system...
if he just had ONLY water, and NO HYDROTON, then his system would suck.
The hydroton is a medium for the roots to branch out through, and contrary to popular belief, there are fine fuzzy hairs on those roots, for as the hydroton doesnt move around, the paths that the water take down through it remain somwhat constant from the drippers being in the same spot...
so the roots adapt quickly to the setup...
frankly... i dont want to f$&@ with hydroton when i can get comparable results with mp sprayers.
The other key to this is to understand... one can grow 8 - 20 plants sog style per each of these tubs...
or they could grow a couple trees per tub...
cramming the plants up top is not a problem...
the key is to have as much root matter (surface area and volume) as possible
by putting 8 plants per tub... its a guarantee the tub will be FULL of roots when its all said and done...
that being what it is... i dont see how the potential yeilds of those 8 couldnt surpass DD's, because there is more root matter... period.
i have height restrictions right now too, so huge trees is impossible for me either way.
or if you wanted to do 2 big trees per tub, still more root matter per tub than doubled's... were using a tub twice the size
do i think this will beat dd's?
not off the bat... you gotta get good at everything else too first.. nutes, spray times, etc.
so thats my 2 cents on the whole thing
Technically... if you wanted to forget about sprayers and take DD's sysetm head on...
buy those damn blue bio balls in super bulk from alibaba.com, and FILL the tubs with those, and put 8 ft cut sections laser cut aeration hoses in each tub and ring them around the top, andstill have the water moving through the bottom as in my setup...
but just make sure... you use large enough connector pipes from tub to tub so that it becomes impossible for clogs, because goodluck figuring that out with a million blue balls in there.
If i had the money for the blue balls, id actually do a head to head test against mp... and im almost positive the blue balls would win.... the roots just have more dense structure in that kind of stuff it seems like.
atomizer...
do i need to by a 12v relay in addition to the 120's that i bought?
that way i can hook up some sort of a relay to that level switch since it says the max load it will take is only 100v?
thanks for all your help bro, i really do appreciate it
sherriberry
New Member
ps, earlier we were all talking about those big barells, that are 55gal plastic drums, and doing a possible vertical chamber...
i just want to point out that if you did do vertical chambers, its important to realize this setup would be key in doing them... only instead of having all the chambers in a straight line, you have them in a loop, and you still put the sump pump in the one in the middle, and have 2 feed lines to to the 2 tubs on the opposite side of the circle and then make their flow come around from each side to the middle tub.
obviously there would be sprayers in there as well, and you could do the "wall of green", and have plants on 3 levels up the walls of the plastic drums.
im not going to do that now, but maybe one of these days, we will see how this goes first
i just want to point out that if you did do vertical chambers, its important to realize this setup would be key in doing them... only instead of having all the chambers in a straight line, you have them in a loop, and you still put the sump pump in the one in the middle, and have 2 feed lines to to the 2 tubs on the opposite side of the circle and then make their flow come around from each side to the middle tub.
obviously there would be sprayers in there as well, and you could do the "wall of green", and have plants on 3 levels up the walls of the plastic drums.
im not going to do that now, but maybe one of these days, we will see how this goes first
OregonMeds
Well-Known Member
Ok you know you're stuff... I had already planned on using the bio balls in my setup but only as a replacement for the hydroton in the netpot. I'm aware of what you're talking about there.
I couldn't imagine ever using them in the whole tubs thought even if that worked best, because of the mess of cleanup.
I couldn't imagine ever using them in the whole tubs thought even if that worked best, because of the mess of cleanup.
Thats the reason for having a 12v dc coil relay, the other is the floatswitch is in the water and 12v dc won`t kill you
The floatswitch uses 12v dc to energise the relay coil and the relay coil then switches relay contacts with the mains voltage. The pump/floatswitch circuit uses a DPDT relay with a 12v dc coil and the cycle timer/solenoid circuit uses a DPDT relay with a 120v ac coil.
I looked on TF`s relay website and this relay (DPDT 12vdc coil, 8amp@240v) should do the job,
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-530/12VDC-DPDT-RELAY/1.html
Its designed for pcb mounting so you`ll need to solder some wires onto the pins but thats no biggy.
The floatswitch uses 12v dc to energise the relay coil and the relay coil then switches relay contacts with the mains voltage. The pump/floatswitch circuit uses a DPDT relay with a 12v dc coil and the cycle timer/solenoid circuit uses a DPDT relay with a 120v ac coil.
I looked on TF`s relay website and this relay (DPDT 12vdc coil, 8amp@240v) should do the job,
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-530/12VDC-DPDT-RELAY/1.html
Its designed for pcb mounting so you`ll need to solder some wires onto the pins but thats no biggy.
clydefrog
Well-Known Member
now thats true i reckon...ive never actually tried to use a 555 setup for anything as critical as half-second intervals...i guess you could add an x10 to make it more sensitive but the 555 is still going to probably fluctuate a bit over time.
for a 12v backup tho its a fun project.
clydefrog
Well-Known Member
if relays make you nervous, that $80 atc timer TF uses will do what you need.
sherriberry
New Member
K, so im using the small 1/4 inch black aeration tubing, and ive done some simple tests to see how many T's one can have in a single line, before thesprayers start to lose pressure, and with my pump, the answer is about 5 T's, which is way more than i will need, as the most T's i will have off of a single 1/4 inch line is 2 or 3.
So im trying to figure out how to configure these sprayers.
These tubs are about 2ft by 4ft, and over 2 ft tall, but with water levels, just assume 2 ft tall of actual air inside.
Below are some diagrams. The pointy side of the triangle is the direction of spray.
Im thinking of having the lines outside the tubs, and wherver a spray site is, have a T, and have a small hole in the tub just big enough for the line, and then attach the spray nozzle to the line from inside the tub that way its all secure and cant go anywhere.
I would have the sprayers at the upper portion of the tub, about an inch or 2 from the top lip. Maybe i should go lower?
Im trying to pack the tub with as much roots as possible.
I figure a goot starting point will be 8 plants per tub.
The green circles are the plant sites.
If the tub doenst get full of roots, then next time ill do 10 or 12 plants
If the tub gets full of roots WELL BEFORE harvest time, then i will consider downsizing the number of plants in the next round.
The sprayers in the lid, i was thinking of having the line come down vertically, and then T and spray in 2, or 4 directions.
Or, i could have just a single sprayer per vertical line, and have it shooting straight down.
Im going to be running around 30psi+psi, which is about 8psi more than those iwaki pumps fatman linked a long time ago... i have one of those as well, they run around 22psi.
And im going to be using the 60-80 micron sprayers, 1gph, beige with black tips.
Pump that im using has PLENTY OF VOLUME, so you dont have to worry about using too many sprayers.
im just trying to figure out what the best setup is, and if having too many sprayers per tub would hurt me, or, if having not enough sprayers and too much roots will cause dry spots for the roots.
I know ill find the best way through testing, but just curious which way you guys think would be the best way to go
Im also slightly worried about having the feed lines coming in from the top of the lid, due to lights and heating up the lines.
When they come in from the sides, the tubs lip shade the lines from direct light, which is why i was trying to keep them up higher on the tubs.
Or i could run the lines inside the tubs?
I know my res will be cool, but im worried about after a spray, and the lines are sitting there full of liquid, of them heating up, and then when they spray again, its hot water being sprayed.
Im not sure what kind of trouble this will cause me, if any?
So im trying to figure out how to configure these sprayers.
These tubs are about 2ft by 4ft, and over 2 ft tall, but with water levels, just assume 2 ft tall of actual air inside.
Below are some diagrams. The pointy side of the triangle is the direction of spray.
Im thinking of having the lines outside the tubs, and wherver a spray site is, have a T, and have a small hole in the tub just big enough for the line, and then attach the spray nozzle to the line from inside the tub that way its all secure and cant go anywhere.
I would have the sprayers at the upper portion of the tub, about an inch or 2 from the top lip. Maybe i should go lower?
Im trying to pack the tub with as much roots as possible.
I figure a goot starting point will be 8 plants per tub.
The green circles are the plant sites.
If the tub doenst get full of roots, then next time ill do 10 or 12 plants
If the tub gets full of roots WELL BEFORE harvest time, then i will consider downsizing the number of plants in the next round.
The sprayers in the lid, i was thinking of having the line come down vertically, and then T and spray in 2, or 4 directions.
Or, i could have just a single sprayer per vertical line, and have it shooting straight down.
Im going to be running around 30psi+psi, which is about 8psi more than those iwaki pumps fatman linked a long time ago... i have one of those as well, they run around 22psi.
And im going to be using the 60-80 micron sprayers, 1gph, beige with black tips.
Pump that im using has PLENTY OF VOLUME, so you dont have to worry about using too many sprayers.
im just trying to figure out what the best setup is, and if having too many sprayers per tub would hurt me, or, if having not enough sprayers and too much roots will cause dry spots for the roots.
I know ill find the best way through testing, but just curious which way you guys think would be the best way to go
Im also slightly worried about having the feed lines coming in from the top of the lid, due to lights and heating up the lines.
When they come in from the sides, the tubs lip shade the lines from direct light, which is why i was trying to keep them up higher on the tubs.
Or i could run the lines inside the tubs?
I know my res will be cool, but im worried about after a spray, and the lines are sitting there full of liquid, of them heating up, and then when they spray again, its hot water being sprayed.
Im not sure what kind of trouble this will cause me, if any?
sherriberry
New Member
so youre saying, make sure everything gets sprayed by the sprayers on the way out?Just about everything hinges on what kind of spray pattern and throw the nozzles have as that dictates the number and placement to achieve full coverage. Its worth measuring if you have the pump and nozzles on hand even though you get a little damp in the process
see, i was thinking with mp, a mist was created, and i didnt have to hit the roots with the mist from the nozzle, but that the mist would float around in the chamber...
but, as its obvious... i dont know this answer... ive just heard different thigns from different people.
i think fatman uses these sprayers and this level of pressure, or used to...
so he might know best on this setup...
obviously im clueless
Theres a lot of variables, the spread, throw and even the flowrate can be very different from one setup to another even with the same nozzles. I tested my nozzles 2ft off the ground firing horizontally, measured the throw and the width to find the included angle. The damp floor under the mist path tells you how much might reach the bottom of the chamber.
If the nozzle was mounted firing directly downwards (or upwards) you would get completely different results.
If the nozzle was mounted firing directly downwards (or upwards) you would get completely different results.
OregonMeds
Well-Known Member
It's good that you ask because this is something I've been wondering about. Is there a droplet size that will float around on whatever air path is in the chamber or how do I determine what root mass a given sprayer in a certain spot can handle? HP, MP, LP, if there's a difference here let me know.so youre saying, make sure everything gets sprayed by the sprayers on the way out?
see, i was thinking with mp, a mist was created, and i didnt have to hit the roots with the mist from the nozzle, but that the mist would float around in the chamber...
but, as its obvious... i dont know this answer... ive just heard different thigns from different people.
i think fatman uses these sprayers and this level of pressure, or used to...
so he might know best on this setup...
obviously im clueless
tree farmer
Well-Known Member
this shows that there are to many variables to make a blanket statement on where to place sprayers. an example of this can be seen this run in my system. i have pretty much the same nozzels with different root development this time just from having the misters down low compared to last time with the misters up high. i dont like the development this time as well but it is serving its purpose in keeping the roots from choking the misters off to early. now in the right sized chambers id never do the same thing cause it is causing the roots to form to thickly along the bottom but with this size chamber i have no choice if i want to finish the run.
for HP sprayers the best option from my experience so far would be to have as much open space for the mist to float on before coming in contact with the roots as possible as this will cause the roots to reach out into the open space to capture the mist, forming the most delicate fine root hairs. so even a difference of 4 or 5 inches as is the case this time in placement can be seen in the different root development.
i have no doubt as soon as i raise the misters the roots will again go straight up the chamber wall and reach out into the open space to catch the falling mist.
these things might not have much bearing on mp or lp placement but for Hp they provide a means of controling the root development for optimal efficiency of the avaliable chamber volume.
sherriberry
New Member
so you are starting low, and then moving them up higher as time progresses... because if you start them high, the roots branch high, and then the mist gets blocked and cant make it lower in the chamber...
and at that point, if you put the sprayers low, then all the top roots die off...
so this time you are starting low, and moving up over time, and hope to allow the mist to fall on the bottom wide roots that are already developed, and hope to outrun the development of the top roots in time for harvest? (that whole thing was a question, just making sure im understanding correctly)
So then on the setups ive drawn, consider this...
what if i put the top feed sprayers that come down from the lid... and have them start out low, and keep the ones on the sides of the tub high...
so now i have spray at both high and low levels...
and if i need to, i can always pull the sprayers that come down from the lid... up higher as the grow goes on.
now... my big concern is still the feed tubes getting too hot as they come in fromt he top of the lid and the lights hitting them.
I wonder if insulation foam sleaves that i see at lowes would do the trick in keeping these temps down in the spray lines?
thanks atomizer and TF
ps, how many sprayers are you guys using per tub? I know you are doing one plant per tub, but im still curious, and how big are your tubs, and how big do your roots get by the end of the grow?
Thanks guys
and at that point, if you put the sprayers low, then all the top roots die off...
so this time you are starting low, and moving up over time, and hope to allow the mist to fall on the bottom wide roots that are already developed, and hope to outrun the development of the top roots in time for harvest? (that whole thing was a question, just making sure im understanding correctly)
So then on the setups ive drawn, consider this...
what if i put the top feed sprayers that come down from the lid... and have them start out low, and keep the ones on the sides of the tub high...
so now i have spray at both high and low levels...
and if i need to, i can always pull the sprayers that come down from the lid... up higher as the grow goes on.
now... my big concern is still the feed tubes getting too hot as they come in fromt he top of the lid and the lights hitting them.
I wonder if insulation foam sleaves that i see at lowes would do the trick in keeping these temps down in the spray lines?
thanks atomizer and TF
ps, how many sprayers are you guys using per tub? I know you are doing one plant per tub, but im still curious, and how big are your tubs, and how big do your roots get by the end of the grow?
Thanks guys
tree farmer
Well-Known Member
first off let me say that i have run single plant in 22 gallon round tubs(basically 22 gallon pails) and i used higher pressures than you are considering with the same drip irrigation 60-80 micron sprayers with 40-60psi and an accumulator with selonoid and seconds timers. i had my biggest tree ever in those pails but this is what you need to understand the roots never looked any different than any of the submersible pump ez cloner DWC pics you see online. the roots were large in the sense they were like thick ropes that ran to the bottom of the container and created a thick mat that layed on the silk screen bottom. so the mat wasnt submerged (like your going to try)but the roots never got any white fuzzies and looked like most DWC roots for most of the cycle but grew huge trees none the less.
i had the sprayers the same as this system. four in a circle around the net pot up high on the lid. these sprayers basically sprayed the roots with a film of water that ran down the roots and thru the mat and then to the drain. so what im saying is that as long as you can give an even coverage to the roots that hang from the netpot to the chamber solution that is really all you have to worry about. the roots wont go out much just mostly straight down following the flow of water.
So the system has to be designed for what type of roots will develop. and unless you have different results than i had or have seen in these pressure ranges you need not really worry about the roots going out horizontally much just down and then dealing with the root mat(either submerged or lifted).
I know your hoping to upgrade later to higher pressures so really with the same sprayers and the higher pressures id just space them so that now the 360 degree they throw off hits the sides of the netpot with the outer perimeter of the 360 degree mist circle.
i hope you dont think im trying to say your idea isnt going to do well cause thats not what im saying i just want you to be aware of the likely probability in those pressure ranges that no matter where you place the sprayers your still going to have a hard time getting any roots to do much but come out the netpot and drop to the below flowing water where they will just collect. none the less the system will grow as big a plant as you want i think as long as you can keep the submerged roots happy and the hanging roots filmed.
i will add that i never ran any cycles below 6 sec every 3 minutes or so cause back then i had no idea that shorter mist cycles might have been benificial. and most of the time i ran around 20 seconds. i have seen some pics of others running shorter cycles in those pressure ranges and have seen they had some improvement over what i did as far as some fuzz but nothing that would reach out horizantally and choke a sprayer off up top or on the side.
never had problems with the feed tubes getting hot cause if they line is small and your misting often there isnt time for the solution to heat up much if the res is outside the room.
the tubes to insulate pipes in the winter i used for awhile on this system but found i didnt need them. i actually have to set the res at 72 now that the girls shade the lines to get the chamber temp to stay at 68. i do have white panda laying over the lines also though.
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