Have we stopped trying to make good people?

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
This essay really cuts to the heart of how Conservatives think about the world as opposed to Liberals.

I for one find the question of how good people are made to be the single most important question there is - everything else is mere triviality as so eloquently pointed out below.

By Dennis Prager,



The most important question any society must answer is: How will we make good people?
That is the question Judeo-Christian values have grappled with. There are many and profound theological and practical differences between Judaism and Christianity. But in the American incarnation of Judeo-Christian values -- and America is really the one civilization that developed an amalgamation of Jewish and Christian values -- the emphasis has been on individual character.

One cannot make a good society if one does not begin with the arduous task of making good individuals. Both Judaism and Christianity begin with the premise that man is not basically good and therefore regard man's nature as the root of cause of evil.
This may sound basic and even obvious, but it is not. In the Western world since the Enlightenment, belief in the inherent goodness of human beings has taken over. This has resulted in an increasing neglect of character development because evil has come to be regarded not as emanating from human nature (which is essentially good) or from morally flawed individuals but from forces outside the individual -- especially material ones. Thus, vast numbers of the best educated in the West have come to believe that "poverty causes crime."

Now, while no one could possibly refute the argument that starving people will steal bread for their families (an act that is morally defensible), the argument that poverty causes crime posits that when poor people in America commit murder and other violent crimes, it is because they are poor.
This is irrational dogma, as much a matter of faith as any theological doctrine. Two simple facts illustrate this: First, the vast majority of poor people, in America and elsewhere, do not commit violent crimes. Second, a large amount of crime is committed by the middle class and even by the wealthy. Neither fact prompts the "poverty causes crime" believers to rethink their position.

They need to, however, not only because the poverty-causes-crime thesis is so demonstrably false, but because it prevents societies from making good people. When society blames evil on forces outside the individual rather than on the individuals who perpetrate evil, society will work to change those forces rather than work to improve the character of individuals. That is a key to understanding why the left constantly attempts to radically change society -- how else make a better world?

Conservatives, on the other hand, believe that the way to "repair the world," in the oft-used Hebrew phrase of those most concerned with "social justice," is far less dramatic, far less revolutionary and far less macro-oriented. It is the laborious process of raising every generation from scratch with good values and self-discipline. Without both of these, individual goodness and therefore societal goodness is impossible.
That is why the most important question a society can ask is how to raise young people to be good adults. American society, under the influence of the left, asks other questions: How do we make young people environmentally aware? How do we teach them to fight allegedly rampant racism, sexism, homophobia and xenophobia in society? How do we fight AIDS and breast cancer?

It is, of course, good to be environmentally aware, to fight AIDS and breast cancer, and to oppose bigotry. But before training young people to be social activists, they must first learn character traits -- truth telling, financial honesty, humility, honoring parents and, above all, self-control. Before learning to fight society, people need to fight their own nature. The world is filled with activists of all varieties who are loathsome individuals.

In general, we would do well to be far more impressed with a young person who sits next to the less popular fat kid who is eating alone at lunch, who fights the class bully, who doesn't cheat on tests and who refrains from drug use. There is no federal budget, no Senate or House bill, no social policy, no health care fix that can do as much good as a society that is filled with decent people.
 
P

PadawanBater

Guest
This essay really cuts to the heart of how Conservatives think about the world as opposed to Liberals.

I for one find the question of how good people are made to be the single most important question there is - everything else is mere triviality as so eloquently pointed out below.

By Dennis Prager,



The most important question any society must answer is: How will we make good people?
That is the question Judeo-Christian values have grappled with. There are many and profound theological and practical differences between Judaism and Christianity. But in the American incarnation of Judeo-Christian values -- and America is really the one civilization that developed an amalgamation of Jewish and Christian values -- the emphasis has been on individual character.

One cannot make a good society if one does not begin with the arduous task of making good individuals. Both Judaism and Christianity begin with the premise that man is not basically good and therefore regard man's nature as the root of cause of evil.
This may sound basic and even obvious, but it is not. In the Western world since the Enlightenment, belief in the inherent goodness of human beings has taken over. This has resulted in an increasing neglect of character development because evil has come to be regarded not as emanating from human nature (which is essentially good) or from morally flawed individuals but from forces outside the individual -- especially material ones. Thus, vast numbers of the best educated in the West have come to believe that "poverty causes crime."

Now, while no one could possibly refute the argument that starving people will steal bread for their families (an act that is morally defensible), the argument that poverty causes crime posits that when poor people in America commit murder and other violent crimes, it is because they are poor.
This is irrational dogma, as much a matter of faith as any theological doctrine. Two simple facts illustrate this: First, the vast majority of poor people, in America and elsewhere, do not commit violent crimes. Second, a large amount of crime is committed by the middle class and even by the wealthy. Neither fact prompts the "poverty causes crime" believers to rethink their position.

They need to, however, not only because the poverty-causes-crime thesis is so demonstrably false, but because it prevents societies from making good people. When society blames evil on forces outside the individual rather than on the individuals who perpetrate evil, society will work to change those forces rather than work to improve the character of individuals. That is a key to understanding why the left constantly attempts to radically change society -- how else make a better world?

Conservatives, on the other hand, believe that the way to "repair the world," in the oft-used Hebrew phrase of those most concerned with "social justice," is far less dramatic, far less revolutionary and far less macro-oriented. It is the laborious process of raising every generation from scratch with good values and self-discipline. Without both of these, individual goodness and therefore societal goodness is impossible.
That is why the most important question a society can ask is how to raise young people to be good adults. American society, under the influence of the left, asks other questions: How do we make young people environmentally aware? How do we teach them to fight allegedly rampant racism, sexism, homophobia and xenophobia in society? How do we fight AIDS and breast cancer?

It is, of course, good to be environmentally aware, to fight AIDS and breast cancer, and to oppose bigotry. But before training young people to be social activists, they must first learn character traits -- truth telling, financial honesty, humility, honoring parents and, above all, self-control. Before learning to fight society, people need to fight their own nature. The world is filled with activists of all varieties who are loathsome individuals.

In general, we would do well to be far more impressed with a young person who sits next to the less popular fat kid who is eating alone at lunch, who fights the class bully, who doesn't cheat on tests and who refrains from drug use. There is no federal budget, no Senate or House bill, no social policy, no health care fix that can do as much good as a society that is filled with decent people.
FAIL. Hypocrite. :bigjoint:
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
That is a shallow response. I did not write that article.

Plus, it is not hypocritical to tell kids not to use drugs. What children do and what adults do are different things and drugs can mean a lot of things aside from weed.

Instead of trying so hard to find and emphasize even the slightest flaw in everything you read, why not try learning from the ideas of others.
 

BigTitLvr

Well-Known Member
Let's move away from the false dichotomy surrounding the "fact" that we can train people to be good by teaching the Judeo/Christian ethics. ALL religion is the root of most evils in today's world, imo: ignorant people being controlled by manipulative leaders, to keep them ignorant, to maintain the control.
 

jeffchr

Well-Known Member
a shallow article evokes a shallow response. the assumptions are false, so of course the conclusions are equally invalid.

for instance, there is not a single "cause" of crime. poverty does cause crime in those individuals who feel they have nothing to loose. if their lives have become meaningless, all life is meaningless. that's not a left or right issue, it's fact.

and what's this - "That is a key to understanding why the left constantly attempts to radically change society." the left is not trying to radically change society.

and this quality is attributed ONLY to conservatives - "It is the laborious process of raising every generation from scratch with good values and self-discipline." ................. dogmatic, prejudicial, false assumption.

Dennis Prager, eh? so that's where some of your DOGMA comes from.
 

upnorth2505

New Member
Let's move away from the false dichotomy surrounding the "fact" that we can train people to be good by teaching the Judeo/Christian ethics. ALL religion is the root of most evils in today's world, imo: ignorant people being controlled by manipulative leaders, to keep them ignorant, to maintain the control.
Disturbing, but undeniably true. Religion is unparalled in its ability to cause the most horrific evils.

The problem is that humankind has so far insisted on believing in "story books". There is the Bible, the Koran, the Kabla, and on and on.

NONE of these religious writings represent reality. You would think with all our advances that we would be ready to accept the undeniable falsehood of these religous writings.

By the way, I am not anti-religion, anti-god. I believe in a creative force. We as mere humans are way too ignorant to figure it out. If we could all accept this, perhaps some day we might actually know the truth.
 

laughingduck

Well-Known Member
Would following the ten commandments not be a good place to start when it comes to leading a good life? I think folks have focused on the external factors intirely too much. Who you are when nobodys watchin is who you really are.
 

jeffchr

Well-Known Member
Would following the ten commandments not be a good place to start when it comes to leading a good life? I think folks have focused on the external factors intirely too much. Who you are when nobodys watchin is who you really are.
i'm not sure i understand that statement. who you are when nobody's watchin is who you really are. hmmm.

i think if there are more than one of you, you have a real problem.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I think it is more important to try to BE a good person, than MAKE others be a good person.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
Not a single one of you has studied religion or knows shit about it aside from your own personal experience. How many here know the fundamentals of Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism or Islam? I've got news for you, you don't know shit about Christianity either - ever study theology on an advanced level? We all know there are many religious nut jobs - it is a mistake to blame all religion for these people. Religion has also formed much of the basis for many great thinkers.

If religious precepts are so horrible, what do you suppose society would look like if we tried to live by their opposites?

And the piece didn't say that religion makes better people, only that how to make good people is the major concern of religion and ought to be a major concern of any society that wishes to succeed.

Set aside your Left wing religion (which is what it is) for a moment - open your mind to new ideas and learn something.
 

figtree

Active Member
You dont need to be part of a religion to be a good person. and you dont need the ten comandments to be a good person.
To be a good person you just need to be a good person. thats it.

Hmmm. are all the "preachers" Preying on our kids good people? and these are the ones at the heads of thier churches, teaching others how to be good people? nice job hipacrits, trying to teach "the lords word" on the way to hell. and its not just one or two of these "preachers" or churches.
 
P

PadawanBater

Guest
Not a single one of you has studied religion or knows shit about it aside from your own personal experience. How many here know the fundamentals of Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism or Islam? I've got news for you, you don't know shit about Christianity either - ever study theology on an advanced level? We all know there are many religious nut jobs - it is a mistake to blame all religion for these people. Religion has also formed much of the basis for many great thinkers.
...But it's OK to judge all homosexual people based on the minority? Great logic!

Also, it was "believe or DIE!" - I'm willing to bet most of those "great thinkers" you're talking about either put up the front to make it seem like they believed, or they held some belief similar to that of Jefferson or Einstein, which in no way resembles little 8lb 6oz baby Jebus... Also, a more likely scenario is they did believe, but only because there wasn't the mountains and mountains of evidence to the contrary, like there is today, so mark it up to ignorance. If that's how religion wants to gain followers - through ignorance - then that's saying a lot, wouldn't you agree?


If religious precepts are so horrible, what do you suppose society would look like if we tried to live by their opposites?
Here is what an atheistic society would look like;

[youtube]DaOVPaYf780&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]qO9IPoAdct8[/youtube]

[youtube]pkCuc34hvD4&feature=related[/youtube]

Also, for a person to claim nothing good comes from religion would be ignorant. Of course there are good things religion produces, no atheist denies that. What I claim is the bad outweighs the good a thousand fold. It's not worth it.

And the piece didn't say that religion makes better people, only that how to make good people is the major concern of religion and ought to be a major concern of any society that wishes to succeed.
Religions only concern is of control, control over a persons thoughts, feelings and actions. It's slavery.

Set aside your Left wing religion (which is what it is) for a moment - open your mind to new ideas and learn something.

What would that "Left wing religion" be Rick? I hope you're not making the claim atheism is a religion...
:shock:
 

Leothwyn

Well-Known Member
Not a single one of you has studied religion or knows shit about it aside from your own personal experience.
Do you know the people here personally? Maybe you're right though. Luckily we have you to enlighten us.

If religious precepts are so horrible, what do you suppose society would look like if we tried to live by their opposites?
Do you mean the ones that allow slavery, selling children etc.? Obviously these religions don't have all of the answers, and they give some bad advice sometimes. That's why people are so selective these days about which parts they buy into.

Being a fairly new father, I totally agree that making good people is fundamental to having a good society/world. But, what a strange mythology you guys have... the idea that we are all born evil. :spew:
We are born with the potential to grow in many directions. Outside influences are huge. Sure, people are born with different degrees of tendencies to ignore or adhere to social standards. There are people who seem to be inherently evil, but to ignore outside influences and pretend that they were born with evil in their hearts, and just didn't have the willpower to overcome it sure is a simplistic view of things.
 

Moldy

Well-Known Member
I don't believe in talking snakes, rain for 40 days and nights, arks, etc. All the books on religion and “Gods” have been written by man. Man wants to control man. Fear is how the control begins. What better way than a scary pissed off ubiquitous God to make man get religion?

A person shouldn’t have to “try to be good” it should be your inherent intelligence and emotions that dictate those actions.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
I have one question at this point. How does one have an intelligent conversation with people who have no ability to comprehend what they read?

Although Prager does discuss the fact that religion seeks to make good people, it is far from the central issue of the piece. I am left to wonder, did you all just fail to understand the point of the essay or are you just so theophobic that you can not resist an opportunity to speak out against religion?

Here is his thesis statement - you guys know what that is right? It is a sentence that introduces the main point of your essay.

"The most important question any society must answer is: How will we make good people?"

The main focus of the essay is not religion.

On another note, you guys would be better informed to understand that there is far more to the religions of the world than the way you understand and comprehend religion. After all, what do you really know about it? Maybe a few of you went to Church a few times, or maybe you are basing your opinions on stuff you saw on TV or some fool proselytizing on some corner somewhere. I've got news for you - there is a lot more out there than what you have personally experienced and know about. It is a mistake to think that the knowledge you posses determines what exists - most of you are guilty of this type of thinking.

Is the philosophy of Martin Buber, an Orthodox Jew typical according to how you perceive religion?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_and_Thou

Here is a website listing a number of philosophers, their religion and their work.

http://www.adherents.com/adh_phil.html

Here is a wiki regarding different conceptions of God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptions_of_God
 
P

PadawanBater

Guest
I have one question at this point. How does one have an intelligent conversation with people who have no ability to comprehend what they read?

Although Prager does discuss the fact that religion seeks to make good people, it is far from the central issue of the piece. I am left to wonder, did you all just fail to understand the point of the essay or are you just so theophobic that you can not resist an opportunity to speak out against religion?

Here is his thesis statement - you guys know what that is right? It is a sentence that introduces the main point of your essay.

"The most important question any society must answer is: How will we make good people?"

The main focus of the essay is not religion.

On another note, you guys would be better informed to understand that there is far more to the religions of the world than the way you understand and comprehend religion. After all, what do you really know about it? Maybe a few of you went to Church a few times, or maybe you are basing your opinions on stuff you saw on TV or some fool proselytizing on some corner somewhere. I've got news for you - there is a lot more out there than what you have personally experienced and know about. It is a mistake to think that the knowledge you posses determines what exists - most of you are guilty of this type of thinking.

Is the philosophy of Martin Buber, an Orthodox Jew typical according to how you perceive religion?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_and_Thou

Here is a website listing a number of philosophers, their religion and their work.

http://www.adherents.com/adh_phil.html

Here is a wiki regarding different conceptions of God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptions_of_God
Well, I can't speak for everyone, but my last response was a reply to your last post - where you were directly talking about religion - not the OP.

"theophobic" - dude, you're making up words now?

What do I know about religion? That's the thing about most atheists dude, and when you think about it, it actually makes perfect sense... We've read the Bible. I know what is in it. I know the morals it espouses, and I know that you don't need it in order to apply them to your own life. The Bible, all religion, is irrelevant and only serves to harm us. It puts us against each other based on things we can't change about ourselves as human beings, or the imaginary lines drawn in all our heads that divides us by "nationality". These petty differences cause major damage to our entire race. If there is a God, I guarantee it'll be an ironic twist of fate at the end of each of our lives when he congratulates the atheists for using their intellect to figure out how to be a moral person and what morality actually means without having to be drawn a picture in crayon to understand it...

We all agree there are good things in the Bible and bad things, so why would you keep the bad things? Can't you just keep the good things and add onto them with logic and reason that evolves as the world evolves? We can identify the stuff that's wrong with the Bible - stoning, genocide, pillage, rape, murder, mutilation, torture, sacrifice, etc. - so why keep them and treat them with any kind of respect - them or the people who believe in them. They don't deserve respect for holding such opinions - respect is earned, anyone who believes the stuff that I mentioned is justice within a just system is not only a retard who clearly can't think critically but a disgustingly immoral person who can't be trusted to do the right, moral, just thing when it's required. These people are our politicians, they're our "leaders", societies "moral individuals", when clearly they're not. As an atheist, I'm tired of the hypocrisy behind it all.

Honestly too stoned right now to get into philosophy, maybe tonight after work though.
 

BigTitLvr

Well-Known Member
Not a single one of you has studied religion or knows shit about it aside from your own personal experience.
And as far as we know...neither have you.

ps- you are reading the words of a former full-time ordained minister who has studied nearly every religion in depth and reached the conclusion that they are ALL, without exception, the words of men -just like anyone in this forum- expressing their personally opinions on the supernatural.
 

Leothwyn

Well-Known Member
I have one question at this point. How does one have an intelligent conversation with people who have no ability to comprehend what they read?
I'll just quote myself. I didn't just talk about religion.
We are born with the potential to grow in many directions. Outside influences are huge. Sure, people are born with different degrees of tendencies to ignore or adhere to social standards. There are people who seem to be inherently evil, but to ignore outside influences and pretend that they were born with evil in their hearts, and just didn't have the willpower to overcome it sure is a simplistic view of things.
This is just another standard thread from you guys.
-> Conservatives have it all figured out. Just listen to them, and we'll be living in paradise.
-> Liberals think they have it figured out. Listen to them, and the world will be destroyed.
-> {copy-paste an oversimplified view from your favorite right-wingnut}

The idea that we are inherently good is about as naive as the one that says that we are inherently evil. (I still say that you've got some twisted, guilt-ridden myths going on). It's not that simple.

Most poor people don't commit crimes, therefore poverty does not influence people to commit crimes... seriously? What kind of logic is that? Everyone's different. It's a matter of people being flawed, not learning to stand for what's right and outside influences leading people astray. There is evil within and evil outside of us. That goes for good too.
 
Top