Peeing in the Pool

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
If a young boy goes swimming in a public pool and decides to pee in said pool, what harm does it do?

Clearly, the pool contains enough water to dilute the pee which after all is sterile in the first place. So, why shouldn't the boy pee in the pool? The answer to this question should be obvious.

Now people can come up with all kinds of silly arguments to rationalize the boy's individual choice to pee in the pool. It could be argued that peeing is a fundamental right and therefore nobody has the right to deny his right to pee. One could also argue that the act is not offensive because the pee is not being directly streamed on another and is therefore not an infringement on that person. One could also argue that people can choose not to swim in the public pool or let their kids swim if they are worried about the pee. Furthermore, they could argue that peeing is a natural act and it should therefore be tolerated.

In case you haven't caught on yet, the public pool is an analogy for the society in which we all live. Like the public pool, peeing in it affects everyone. And many of the arguments we typically encounter in political debate are no less ridiculous than the conversation about peeing in the pool - the pool just helps us see it.

In life, just like in the pool, we can not expect that the things we do and the way we live and conduct ourselves has no affect on others. Even things we do in our own home, that may seem not to affect others, actually do. For instance, one might argue that what one puts in their body is nobody else's business and it affects nobody. While this is sometimes true, it isn't always the case. Misuse of antibiotics causes antibiotic resistant pathogens that can spread like wildfire. This has in fact been a big problem as of late. Your choice to misuse antibiotics affects other people.

The same is true of a lot of other things. What is shown on TV is another great example. The old argument is "if you don't like what is on, turn it off." But any thinking person knows this isn't realistic. If one has kids, it just isn't plausible to expect the parent to be able to effectively filter what their kids see on TV. The only way this can be accomplished is if we as a society make decisions about what should and should not be allowed in the pool area.

Likewise, many states are passing anti-smoking bans, which is another good example. Same concept but involving air instead of water.

And people's conduct is another example. The law says that people have a given right to a peaceful environment - that is why one can be arrested for disturbing the peace. There is a long list of things we can not do in public - we can all list dozens.

The point of all this is that unless you live in a cabin in the woods of Montana you must conduct yourself in a manner deemed acceptable by the society in which you live.

The idea that one can do all sorts of nonsense and that none of it affects the other people with whom you share public space is like thinking one can pee in a public pool without affecting anyone else. The public arena should be thought of like a swimming pool - the use of which requires one to follow rules. The things we like to do that are not accepted by society should be thought of like pee. It is OK to let it out, but you should do it at home in your own toilet and not in the public pool.
 

dukeofbaja

New Member
The point of all this is that unless you live in a cabin in the woods of Montana you must conduct yourself in a manner deemed acceptable by the society in which you live.

Like, for example, not discriminating against minority groups? But who would do that in this day and age of enlightenment?
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
The point of all this is that unless you live in a cabin in the woods of Montana you must conduct yourself in a manner deemed acceptable by the society in which you live.

Like, for example, not discriminating against minority groups? But who would do that in this day and age of enlightenment?
I am beginning to find your obsession with my posts quite flattering. How do you do it? Do you search by my screen name repeatedly or is there some kind of notification you have turned on? The post above was up for about 60 seconds before you replied. I generally follow my own threads or those I find interesting. You have clearly made it your goal to seek out my posts. I can only assume you seek my attention and interaction.
 

BigTitLvr

Well-Known Member
I understand you are trying to make an argument here, but your point is too large. You could use the small pee/big water analogy to argue both sides of the coin for any political hot topic right now.

After all, 'a little leaven leavens the whole lump', etc...
 

dukeofbaja

New Member
I can only assume you're deluded.

Go search my posts or threads started and get back to me.

Or respond with some substance to what I say. By the way, calling on centuries old philosophy by Locke is not a 'substantive reply' to decades of compiled studies by social scientists and psychologists
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Rick, peeing in a "public" pool and monitoring television broadcasts are two different animals.

In your own home you have a choice to watch or not watch different broadcasts. If you find something offensive, you can affect it, by changing the channel or turning the television off. It is your private property and you can excercise control over it. Furthermore, prohibiting certain broadcasts is an infringement on the person doing the broadcasting. The broadcaster of the "offensive" show has not forced anyone to watch their show, so there is no need to limit their actions. Choice to alter the situation remains with the viewer, therefore certain broadcasts are avoidable at the discretion of the owner of the television. Nobody should have control over your life, liberty or property without your express consent. You own the television, you decide what to watch. You want to broadcast stuff that others don't like, they can change the channel. Nobody is "forced" to do anything.

The pissy pool is a different story, the person pissing IS infringing on others. or at least potentially is infringing. If you privately own the pool, piss in it all you want if that's what floats your boat. But if the pool is public, and meant for others to share the use of, it's not cool to piss in it. Once you've pissed in the pool, you've subjected others to something that would be difficult to avoid or alter. Effectively they have no real remedy to avoid your "aggression". They can't turn off the pool like they could the televison. Therefore pissing in a public pool should not be allowed and is a different type of act than airing broadcasts somebody might not like.


...and another thing in no case should anybody piss on their television, electrical shock could result! :eyesmoke:
 

Babs34

Well-Known Member
If a young boy goes swimming in a public pool and decides to pee in said pool, what harm does it do?

Clearly, the pool contains enough water to dilute the pee which after all is sterile in the first place. So, why shouldn't the boy pee in the pool? The answer to this question should be obvious.

Now people can come up with all kinds of silly arguments to rationalize the boy's individual choice to pee in the pool. It could be argued that peeing is a fundamental right and therefore nobody has the right to deny his right to pee. One could also argue that the act is not offensive because the pee is not being directly streamed on another and is therefore not an infringement on that person. One could also argue that people can choose not to swim in the public pool or let their kids swim if they are worried about the pee. Furthermore, they could argue that peeing is a natural act and it should therefore be tolerated.

In case you haven't caught on yet, the public pool is an analogy for the society in which we all live. Like the public pool, peeing in it affects everyone. And many of the arguments we typically encounter in political debate are no less ridiculous than the conversation about peeing in the pool - the pool just helps us see it.

In life, just like in the pool, we can not expect that the things we do and the way we live and conduct ourselves has no affect on others. Even things we do in our own home, that may seem not to affect others, actually do. For instance, one might argue that what one puts in their body is nobody else's business and it affects nobody. While this is sometimes true, it isn't always the case. Misuse of antibiotics causes antibiotic resistant pathogens that can spread like wildfire. This has in fact been a big problem as of late. Your choice to misuse antibiotics affects other people.

The same is true of a lot of other things. What is shown on TV is another great example. The old argument is "if you don't like what is on, turn it off." But any thinking person knows this isn't realistic. If one has kids, it just isn't plausible to expect the parent to be able to effectively filter what their kids see on TV. The only way this can be accomplished is if we as a society make decisions about what should and should not be allowed in the pool area.

Likewise, many states are passing anti-smoking bans, which is another good example. Same concept but involving air instead of water.

And people's conduct is another example. The law says that people have a given right to a peaceful environment - that is why one can be arrested for disturbing the peace. There is a long list of things we can not do in public - we can all list dozens.

The point of all this is that unless you live in a cabin in the woods of Montana you must conduct yourself in a manner deemed acceptable by the society in which you live.

The idea that one can do all sorts of nonsense and that none of it affects the other people with whom you share public space is like thinking one can pee in a public pool without affecting anyone else. The public arena should be thought of like a swimming pool - the use of which requires one to follow rules. The things we like to do that are not accepted by society should be thought of like pee. It is OK to let it out, but you should do it at home in your own toilet and not in the public pool.
In case you haven't caught on yet, the public pool is an analogy for the society in which we all live. Like the public pool, peeing in it affects everyone. And many of the arguments we typically encounter in political debate are no less ridiculous than the conversation about peeing in the pool - the pool just helps us see it.
I caught on from sentence one where you were going with this and I haven't even finished the third paragraph, LOL.

I love your analogies!

Going to bed, officially subscribing to lurk at a later time.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
Rick, peeing in a "public" pool and monitoring television broadcasts are two different animals.

In your own home you have a choice to watch or not watch different broadcasts. If you find something offensive, you can affect it, by changing the channel or turning the television off. It is your private property and you can excercise control over it. Furthermore, prohibiting certain broadcasts is an infringement on the person doing the broadcasting. The broadcaster of the "offensive" show has not forced anyone to watch their show, so there is no need to limit their actions. Choice to alter the situation remains with the viewer, therefore certain broadcasts are avoidable at the discretion of the owner of the television. Nobody should have control over your life, liberty or property without your express consent. You own the television, you decide what to watch. You want to broadcast stuff that others don't like, they can change the channel. Nobody is "forced" to do anything.

The pissy pool is a different story, the person pissing IS infringing on others. or at least potentially is infringing. If you privately own the pool, piss in it all you want if that's what floats your boat. But if the pool is public, and meant for others to share the use of, it's not cool to piss in it. Once you've pissed in the pool, you've subjected others to something that would be difficult to avoid or alter. Effectively they have no real remedy to avoid your "aggression". They can't turn off the pool like they could the televison. Therefore pissing in a public pool should not be allowed and is a different type of act than airing broadcasts somebody might not like.


...and another thing in no case should anybody piss on their television, electrical shock could result! :eyesmoke:
I would argue one has a right to broadcast what ever one wishes throughout their own home. But, as soon as your transmission goes a single nanometer beyond your home it becomes subject to public rules.

People can wrestle with the issue of who has what rights in public until the end of time and never come up with an answer because aside from the single obvious answer, there isn't one.

The single obvious answer is that just as a public pool has rules that are there to ensure a copacetic environment for all, the public arena must also have rules. And there is nothing wrong with these rules being somewhat arbitrary and bases on a "reasonable man" standard.

With regard to the issue of TV, yes you can change the channel. But what if you have children and objectionable material just pops up regardless of what you are watching. How are you supposed to exercise your right to vote with your remote after the fact. You have heard of closing the barn door after the horse is gone I assume.

The fact is, there is only one way to have a well functioning healthy society in which everything is copacetic. That is for society to have rules.

The most obvious and concrete rules are laws which dictate what we may and may not do. After that we have societal norms and etiquette. There vary from place to place but it is safe to say most if not all cultures have them.

The belief that we should have or possibly can have a society in which "anything goes" is foolish. I would even suggest that every piece of social etiquette that falls by the wayside is one small step toward chaos - it is another drop of urine in the public swimming pool.

Too often, we view this decay as an increase in our own social liberty and we view attempts to restore order as infringements. One example that comes to mind, and something that makes my head want to explode, is the obnoxious bull testicles some men are fond of putting on the back of their trucks for all to see.

Why anyone would think it is anything other than warped to want to put on such an obnoxious display is beyond me - and I am no prude by any stretch of the imagination.

I just feel that society, like most things in life, gives back what one puts in. Maybe, if people spent more time thinking about that, instead of how much they can get away with under the guise of individual liberty we could enjoy an environment free from so much of the cultural pollution we are now forced to deal with.
 

mexiblunt

Well-Known Member
It's highly likely that just about everyone of us has swam in a puplic pool. Were you thinking about the inevitability that at least one kid pissed in the pool?
If not then your probably in the highly unlikely group and knew you had the choice not to swim in a public pool. just like the T.V
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
translation : if people do stuff i dont agree with they are wrong and they need to stop



who are you to tell anyone their culture is pollution? your high and mighty attitude like your the dictator of all morals is sickening
No, if people do things that society doesn't agree with they are wrong and need to stop. You have heard of laws right? Break these and we put you in a cage. Etiquette and social decorum are just lessor laws. It used to be the case that we had parents that saw to it we obeyed these things. Now thanks to the left we just have a bunch of grown up morons raising children to be as obnoxious as they are.
 

undertheice

Well-Known Member
No, if people do things that society doesn't agree with they are wrong and need to stop. You have heard of laws right? Break these and we put you in a cage. Etiquette and social decorum are just lessor laws.
rick, your totalitarian streak is showing a bit lately. bending the individual to the will of society is the game of theocratic despots and the liberal establishment. morality is the highest law and it is a law that only the individual can be held responsible to uphold. the petty legalities have their basis in morality, but they are mere shadows of the higher aspirations of humanity. passing legislation against those things we find merely distasteful has led us down this path toward the dominion of the hive.

your recent posts show an increasing tendency toward this authoritarian stance and i find it a bit unnerving. the concept of individualism embraces the idea that one may do things with which the rest of society is uncomfortable, but that those choices should be allowed as long as no one else is directly harmed. are you so willing to accept mob rule in favor of freedom of choice? that way lies the sort of brave new world i don't think you really want to see.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
rick, your totalitarian streak is showing a bit lately. bending the individual to the will of society is the game of theocratic despots and the liberal establishment. morality is the highest law and it is a law that only the individual can be held responsible to uphold. the petty legalities have their basis in morality, but they are mere shadows of the higher aspirations of humanity. passing legislation against those things we find merely distasteful has led us down this path toward the dominion of the hive.

your recent posts show an increasing tendency toward this authoritarian stance and i find it a bit unnerving. the concept of individualism embraces the idea that one may do things with which the rest of society is uncomfortable, but that those choices should be allowed as long as no one else is directly harmed. are you so willing to accept mob rule in favor of freedom of choice? that way lies the sort of brave new world i don't think you really want to see.
Define "directly harmed." If I smoke cigarettes in a public restaurant, is anyone directly harmed? There will always be a question of where to draw the line. The mistake is in believing there shouldn't be one.

For instance, some municipalities have ordinances against cars with outrageously loud stereos. Should they not? Should a person with a stereo as loud as a jet engine be able to cruise slowly along a quaint downtown strip of sidewalk cafés blasting out everyone there with bass so powerful it knocks over their drinks? What about through a quiet suburban neighborhood at 3am?

What if someone wants to sit through a movie while their kid screams his head off through the entire picture, is that OK or should people observe social etiquette and exit the theater? What if some teenagers feel like shouting "fire" as a prank? Where have I heard that before?

Now, I agree the legal system can be fucked and so can certain laws. But, the fundamental concept that we need laws (hopefully good ones) isn't debatable. I believe just as we need good laws, we need good social standards. And, I believe that until lately, we as a culture have done a good job of maintaining these standards.

What has changed, is that there is no longer a sense of social obligation and humility. A friend once told me of being on a train in Japan. He said he was amazed by the woman who entered the box car with assorted refreshments and what not. With a smile and perfect decorum she bowed upon entering, did her business with the utmost politeness and upon exiting, turned and bowed again.

He commented on how refreshing this was and what a stark contrast it was from the horrible customer service and lousy attitude the same employee in the US would exhibit.

Nobody is suggesting that people give up their personal liberty or choice to be their own person. I would however, suggest that we all have a moral obligation to live up to certain standards in public. That is the fundamental difference between public and private. When in private people are free to do as they wish without regard for others. When something becomes public, we no longer have that luxury as everything we do directly affects others - that is the very definition of "public."

When we do things in public that are currently disturbing to others we are committing a transgression against them. If we take the attitude that everyone should be free to do what ever they wish, we will quickly wind up in a society nobody wishes to be in.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
No, if people do things that society doesn't agree with they are wrong and need to stop. You have heard of laws right? Break these and we put you in a cage. Etiquette and social decorum are just lessor laws. It used to be the case that we had parents that saw to it we obeyed these things. Now thanks to the left we just have a bunch of grown up morons raising children to be as obnoxious as they are.
If people are doing things "society" disagrees with, it is not absolute they are wrong. The variable of "who was harmed, if anybody " should be considered.

I may disagree with any number of behaviors, but if no harm or aggression has been used against my life, liberty, or property, what another does is not my business or frankly yours.

Society deciding peaceful persons morality has never worked well. :leaf::leaf:
 

undertheice

Well-Known Member
Define "directly harmed."
taken case by case, most of us know those things that are infringing upon the rights of others and those that are merely minor annoyances. cigarette smoke in an enclosed room and hours of a throbbing base line are obviously more than just passing inconveniences, the lingering whiff of smoke and the occasional roar of music from a car as it drives by should just as obviously be seen as the minor nuisances we all must face in a crowded environment. the problem arises when we begin to pass legislation outlawing behaviors based on a worst case scenario and depend on those laws instead of using our own judgment and tolerance. when government steps in to micro-manage the affairs of its citizens, our freedom of choice cannot help but be restricted to an unwarranted degree. more and more we find the law being used to coddle the delicate sensibilities of the few, when their tolerance of life's inconveniences is what is really required.
 
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