CSU Student Walk Out ~ please read and react

[dukeofbaja]

I just don't want an uneducated populace, at (almost) any cost. I am willing to subsidize a higher education for my fellow citizens because it benefits our society as a whole. As much as I hate to say it, anyone who disagrees has the choice to leave this country if they do not agree with this basic tenet of a democratic society.

College costs have been rising for a while now. I have not looked into the reason why. But the issue of education in this country should be just as urgent as healthcare, if not more. We are rapidly falling behind other countries in this arena. This is not good. If you doubt me, I will show you some of the answers college students gave in a study my fiancee conducted. To establish a baseline for her study, she asked the standard WAIS IV questions like 'Who was the President during the Civil War?' or 'Who was Catherine the Great?' or 'What is the circumference of the earth?' .... long story short, complete FAIL. One group only went 3 for 8 on the first question, and 0 for 8 on the other two. Pathetic....

Yet, I also don't want violence, conflict, torture, or innocent civilians dying, at any cost. Yet I can't object (too much, at least) when my tax dollars get spent on national defense. We are all walking contradictions is my point I guess....

 

[undertheice]

I just don't want an uneducated populace, at (almost) any cost. I am willing to subsidize a higher education for my fellow citizens because it benefits our society as a whole. As much as I hate to say it, anyone who disagrees has the choice to leave this country if they do not agree with this basic tenet of a democratic society.

what you are proposing is nothing short of mob rule, either do what the majority says or get out. you can't deny that our educational system has become bloated with useless agendas and self serving policy, just as our government, but you insist that we support it nonetheless. you advocate the use of force to advance enlightenment and don't seem to understand the paradox of your stance. the individual does not exist for the benefit of society, we are not slaves to the hive. society has evolved to benefit the individual and this role reversal inherent in the liberal agenda serves only to create a population of semi-educated drones, toiling to enrich the elite that skims the cream from the labors of the masses.

College costs have been rising for a while now. I have not looked into the reason why. But the issue of education in this country should be just as urgent as healthcare, if not more. We are rapidly falling behind other countries in this arena.

education, under the thumb of the state, will always tend toward mediocrity. the bureaucracies that are the bread and butter of government are the waste and corruption that drives the price of an education higher while watering down the curricula to suit an ever broadening student base. giving the appearance of a better educated population by allowing more students to enroll may delude the masses into believing that progress is being made, but we can clearly see that quality has been sacrificed for the sake of the illusion of parity and social justice.

 

[dukeofbaja]

what you are proposing is nothing short of mob rule, either do what the majority says or get out.

Not really. A democracy fails to exist when the population is uninformed. The Greeks knew this thousands of years ago. Why don't you?

you can't deny that our educational system has become bloated with useless agendas and self serving policy, just as our government, but you insist that we support it nonetheless.

Way to miscontrue what I am saying to make me sound like an idiot. Because only an idiot would support an education system which is exactly as you describe. I didn't ever say anything about supporting a broken system, I advocated for education in general. Not shitty education.

you advocate the use of force to advance enlightenment and don't seem to understand the paradox of your stance.

Is that why I ended my random thought with the line about us being walking contradictions? You don't think I understand that everyone holds some views which contradict other views?

the individual does not exist for the benefit of society, we are not slaves to the hive. society has evolved to benefit the individual and this role reversal inherent in the liberal agenda serves only to create a population of semi-educated drones, toiling to enrich the elite that skims the cream from the labors of the masses.

Am I debating Marx here?

education, under the thumb of the state, will always tend toward mediocrity.

So all schools should be private? Is that what you are driving at?

the bureaucracies that are the bread and butter of government are the waste and corruption that drives the price of an education higher while watering down the curricula to suit an ever broadening student base.

So the rise in college tuition costs are due to beaurocracy? I suspect there are more complex factors at play here...

giving the appearance of a better educated population by allowing more students to enroll may delude the masses into believing that progress is being made, but we can clearly see that quality has been sacrificed for the sake of the illusion of parity and social justice.

So should we start limiting folks' access to a higher education?

I don't really disagree with what you are saying, one of my points in my earlier posts was that I share your concerns that schools are failing. So should we toss the baby out with the bath water? Fuck No. Take steps to improve education so we stop falling behind foreign countries.

 

[ViRedd]

"So all schools should be private? Is that what you are driving at?"

You freely admit to the ignorance of those who have attended government schools. Have you ever read the Federalist Papers? Not easy reading, I can assure you. The Federalist Papers were written as a series of newspaper articles intended to be read by the common man of the time. This was WAY before government involvment in education. So, to answer your question ... yes, let's separate school and state.

As for what to do with the "poor," we can set up charity schools.

 

[dukeofbaja]

Yeah, 'seperate but equal' charity schools I bet.

Care to tell me what the literacy rate was around the time of the Federalist papers?

 

[ViRedd]

Yeah, 'seperate but equal' charity schools I bet.

Care to tell me what the literacy rate was around the time of the Federalist papers?

I haven't done any research on the literacy issue, have you? Back in those days, people were educated at church schools or at home. Reading some of the founding documents, and historical items such as books and newspaper articles from the era, I'd say that the literacy rate was pretty darned good. Have you checked out the literacy rate in this forum?

If you're interested, here's an excellent book for you to read: http://www.schoolandstate.org/Store/SeparatingSchool.htm

 

[dukeofbaja]

I'll take a look at your link. A scan of google for 'literacy rates in colonial america' did not yield much, but apparently literacy rates were pretty good. Maybe even comparable to nowadays for the wealthy, white folks. But if you were poor or minority, forget about it.

Wealthy children studied with private tutors; middling children might learn to read from literate parents or older siblings; many poor and middling white children, as well as virtually all black children, went unschooled.

And as far as 'freely admitting to the ignorance' of those who attended PUBLIC schools (calling them government schools is a self-serving attempt to change the tone of the debate), take a step back and survey the situation. Have no bright minds come from public schools? Have no idiots emerged from public schools? People make of an opportunity what they will, although I will concur that standards are ridiculously low nowadays. No need to throw out the baby with the bath water though.

Oh, and also forgot to mention government was at least kinda involved in education long before the federalist papers were written. I'm sure I can dig up some more examples like this...

A 1647 Massachusetts mandated that every town of 50 or more families support an elementary school and every town of 100 or more families support a grammar school, where boys could learn Latin in preparation for college.

But hey, maybe we should go back to churches and home schooling and set up some seperate but equal 'charity schools' for the poor as you suggest. Can we buy other people and use them for labor while we're at it?

 

[jeff f]

If you complain about subsidizing higher education, then don't complain when more and more foreigners come in and take whatever decent jobs are left here in the US. It is already happening...

PS - Before you call me a silver-spoon-fed snot nosed punk entitled kid, keep in mind I worked two jobs in high school and one job in college while attempting multiple majors. I have no take on the rest of this debate (which has degenerated) and just wanted to throw in my two cents

higher ecucation is already highly subsidized. there reaches a point of diminishing returns and we reached that point about 30 years ago in public high schools. colleges are well on their way to that level. in my state there are "colleges" on every other corner.

i live 2.5 hours from the closest major city. i can drive to more colleges within an hour than walmarts.....and thats not for lack of walmarts.

also, what does forign students have to do with subsidized american college? most of the foriegners attend school here.

 

[dukeofbaja]

We agree jeff f, there is apoint at which there is TOO much subsidization. It could even be the case for CSU, I have no idea. But that is the point. Let's have a debate on where to draw the line and say 'too much'. Very few folks would agree that $0.00 is the best answer.

And also a good point that a lot of foreigners are attending our schools. I hope it never becomes the case that Americans leave the country for a higher education because ours sucks so badly.

 

[undertheice]

I don't really disagree with what you are saying, one of my points in my earlier posts was that I share your concerns that schools are failing. So should we toss the baby out with the bath water? Fuck No. Take steps to improve education so we stop falling behind foreign countries.

the problem starts at the very beginning. our public school system already has failed. its close ties to both government and the public employees unions have created a monster that is incapable of regulating itself and is beyond the reach of other forms of discipline. our society's lack of a firm ethical base is magnified by an educational system that demands little of its teachers and even less of its students. most of our institutes of higher learning spend far too much time teaching those lessons that should have been learned in childhood, wasting the resources that could be used to better purpose. the public is subsidizing a system that can only aspire to mediocrity.

yes, privatization is a viable alternative to the corruption of the system we now have in place. competition certainly can't breed a worse outcome than our present situation. our present choice is between the state run daycare provided to all and an expensive private education, but by expanding the market for private schooling the costs can only come down. with basic minimum requirements in place, the competition inherent in the private sector guarantees a better, more varied product than state sponsored indoctrination centers can ever hope to provide and at a cost that is controlled by consumers instead of bureaucrats. a certain amount of subsidization will always be necessary for those without the means to provide that minimal education, but incentives such as earned credit for excellence and charitable scholarships would give lower class students with the drive to learn a better chance for advancement than they now have. those programs would find greater popularity in a population that isn't saddled with paying for the failure that our schools have become. by increasing the worth of early education, we can downplay the need for degrees as a prerequisite for the semi-skilled professions and colleges can be freed of the future middle-managers and pencil pushers, leaving room and resources for those professions that require intensive training.

by failing our children in the early stages of their education, we have created the need for a degree as proof of a lack of ignorance and extended the length of childhood. by increasing the value of every child's primary education, we decrease the ignorance of the population in general. our government has proven itself incapable of this task, so it is up to the private sector to do what our bureaucracy cannot. i know this is not the way that other civilized nations do it, but, as i have said before, we are not any other civilized nation.

 

[jeff f]

the problem starts at the very beginning. our public school system already has failed. its close ties to both government and the public employees unions have created a monster that is incapable of regulating itself and is beyond the reach of other forms of discipline. our society's lack of a firm ethical base is magnified by an educational system that demands little of its teachers and even less of its students. most of our institutes of higher learning spend far too much time teaching those lessons that should have been learned in childhood, wasting the resources that could be used to better purpose. the public is subsidizing a system that can only aspire to mediocrity.

yes, privatization is a viable alternative to the corruption of the system we now have in place. competition certainly can't breed a worse outcome than our present situation. our present choice is between the state run daycare provided to all and an expensive private education, but by expanding the market for private schooling the costs can only come down. with basic minimum requirements in place, the competition inherent in the private sector guarantees a better, more varied product than state sponsored indoctrination centers can ever hope to provide and at a cost that is controlled by consumers instead of bureaucrats. a certain amount of subsidization will always be necessary for those without the means to provide that minimal education, but incentives such as earned credit for excellence and charitable scholarships would give lower class students with the drive to learn a better chance for advancement than they now have. those programs would find greater popularity in a population that isn't saddled with paying for the failure that our schools have become. by increasing the worth of early education, we can downplay the need for degrees as a prerequisite for the semi-skilled professions and colleges can be freed of the future middle-managers and pencil pushers, leaving room and resources for those professions that require intensive training.

by failing our children in the early stages of their education, we have created the need for a degree as proof of a lack of ignorance and extended the length of childhood. by increasing the value of every child's primary education, we decrease the ignorance of the population in general. our government has proven itself incapable of this task, so it is up to the private sector to do what our bureaucracy cannot. i know this is not the way that other civilized nations do it, but, as i have said before, we are not any other civilized nation.

just to capitalize on one of your points, privatization and competition is what built the best colleges in the world here in the US. its probably the single biggest reason why our universities have been so sought after. but with more "public" funding comes more "mediocrity" and "enlightenment". make anything easy to achieve....and the desire to maximize its benefit diminishes.

 

[undertheice]

just to capitalize on one of your points, privatization and competition is what built the best colleges in the world here in the US. its probably the single biggest reason why our universities have been so sought after. but with more "public" funding comes more "mediocrity" and "enlightenment". make anything easy to achieve....and the desire to maximize its benefit diminishes.

then why haven't we taken that example to heart and shifted the emphasis of primary education from the mediocrity of "public" to the excellence of "private"?

 

[jeff f]

then why haven't we taken that example to heart and shifted the emphasis of primary education from the mediocrity of "public" to the excellence of "private"?

in a word....unions.

 

[dukeofbaja]

our present choice is between the state run daycare provided to all and an expensive private education

false dichotomy, it weakens the rest of your decent argument

the competition inherent in the private sector guarantees a better, more varied product than state sponsored indoctrination centers can ever hope to provide

Well, as long as you gaurantee it. Can I get a refund if it doesn't work?

by increasing the worth of early education
by increasing the value of every child's primary education, we decrease the ignorance of the population in general

Now here is a good idea! But would children still be taught the fake version of Thanksgiving instead of the real one? Is there no way to increase competition without privatizing education? Not that you didn't make a spirited argument with good points, I can agree privatization may be a better alternative. But not viable. Unless something super big and catalyzing happens in this country, nowhere close to enough folks will support privatizing education entirely.

Kinda reminds me of Ron Swanson (Parks and Recreation):
Ron: I think the entire government should be privatized. Chuck E. Cheese could run the parks. Everything operated by tokens. Drop in a token, go on the swing set. Drop in another token, take a walk. Drop in a token, look at a duck.

 

[undertheice]

Is there no way to increase competition without privatizing education?

there is no competition within a state run system and those competing against it are at a distinct disadvantage.

I can agree privatization may be a better alternative. But not viable. Unless something super big and catalyzing happens in this country, nowhere close to enough folks will support privatizing education entirely.

maybe something like decreasing the funding of public schools to the point where families are forced to invest in the education of their children? as the state of our nation's economy continues to worsen and the people balk at increased taxation for even the most needed services, we are not so far away from that now. our representatives could force this change if they had the best interests of the country's children at heart, but they are unwilling to make those hard choices at the risk of their political futures. instead they will increase taxation to pay for an ailing system because they know they can fool a gullible public with phrases like, "it's for the children."

 

[dukeofbaja]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0907/p12s01-legn.html/(page)/2

Good article that promotes no viewpoint, just an overview into the debate we are currently having

 

[jeff f]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0907/p12s01-legn.html/(page)/2

Good article that promotes no viewpoint, just an overview into the debate we are currently having

i dont need an article to tell me how to think all i need to know is this....

where do the richest people in the world send their kids to school? private, for profit schools.

that pretty much answers the question which schools are better.

 

[dukeofbaja]

That's the spirit! "I don't need no research into what has been shown to work or not work, I base my entire line of thought off one single thing!" That's not mocking what you just said, because you hedged your statement with 'pretty much'.

 

[Rob Roy]

The debate over which school system is "best", public or private is arbitrary. The debate should be over whether
a person should be legally and forcefully obligated to support something they don't want.

 

[jeff f]

The debate over which school system is "best", public or private is arbitrary. The debate should be over whether
a person should be legally and forcefully obligated to support something they don't want.

nothing arbitrary about it. there are mountains of evidence that show private schools out perform public schools period. but i agree with the sentiment of your statement.

this is where we should be "allowed" to pull OUR PERSONAL income out of the public schools if we choose to send our kids to private school or homeschool. but no, big brother, exactly like the mafia, says if you wanna live here you have to pay my boy saul for your kid....or no kid.....or graduagted kids.....no matter what, you are paying saul.

hmmm, funny. the FBI calls that exortion.