Redistribution

[undertheice]

So using that logic, Bill Gates' kids have the same opportunity and advantages at birth as the rest of us.

the crap shoot begins after that single moment. did you really think that we are all equal in the luck of the draw? do you expect the successful to not pass on what they have earned? luck, risk and talent have created that wealth and its ownership creates an earned advantage.

 

[NoDrama]

ALL wealth was created by someone who started with nothing.

 

[Padawanbater2]

And I know first hand how much harder it is to start with nothing because that is exactly what I did. All this means is that I need to work that much harder to get ahead. But, it can be done, I am proof.

When do we get to read your autobiography?

 

[vh13]

WTF does this last paragraph even mean? This isn't even an intelligible point. First, people don't inherit a title - this isn't England under Henry VIII. WTF do you mean an "unequal distribution of labor"? That isn't even a real thing.

It sounds like what you are saying is that if a guy owns a company and employs people, he is limiting their potential. That is just plain dumb.

My mistake, I meant to imply that by restricting access to opportunity only via inheritance...

Give me 5 reliable, hard workers willing to do what I say and I will produce 5 successful people. Why, because I know how to build wealth - it is a skill I have.

That's great you've found a way to make yourself valuable, and greater still that you use your knowledge to guide the work of others (your employees). Honest employers who pay honest wages and who train their employees so they can become increasingly more valuable... that's wealth building at it's best, not only for yourself and your employees but for the rest of us too.

You say you came from nothing, did you go to public school as a child? Do you think this economy would be what it is today without public access to education over generations? This large and complex modern economy requires many highly skilled and specialized experts, many of which require years of training and even more experience.

 

[RickWhite]

Not at all, quite the opposite actually. The American text book system has been heavily influenced by the Texas Board of Education for a long time. Fear not, Reagonomics is still all the rage in colleges.

I agree completely that the solution is to teach the poor how to live better. But how do you intend to do so without re-distributing the wealth of some to finance the education of the rest? How do you insure they're properly housed, clothed and fed so they're capable of retaining that knowledge and some day find meaningful work?

OK, if I am understanding you correctly you perceive people much like plants in that we all have an equal desire to grow and flourish and that all of us will do so provided our basic needs are met and we all have a place in the sun. I'm telling you this is incorrect.

What you need to understand is that poverty is more often than not like a disease. And it is like a disease that is unfortunately spread between people - especially from parent to child.

I know teachers who have tried to teach inner city youth and after decades have given up. They say that they simply can not compete with the destructive forces of the parents and the streets.

Forget basic needs such as food and shelter - all Americans have that and it requires tremendously little. In fact, the most poor today have higher standards of living than the average family 50 years ago. So, get the silly notion that people don't have their basic needs met out of your head. I can buy adequate shelter for 10 people for $5,000 in Detroit. Go on Trulia is you doubt me. Hell, people live in mud huts all over the world and get by.

But even providing one's own basic needs is a huge builder of character. Nobody knows more about self reliance and about the value of hard work than one who must chop his own wood to heat his home and who must till his own soil to grow food.

It is this underlying strength of character and knowledge of healthy living and self sufficiency that teaches one the basics of wealth building. When you teach people how to be self sufficient, you are teaching them how to build wealth. When you subsidize their existence, you teach them the opposite.

Without knowing these core concepts, there is little chance of success. The challenge is to find a way to teach the poor these core concepts. Most of them don't want to hear it for a number of reasons. One of these reasons is that they have bought into the victim mentality dreamed up by the Left and expressed by you above.

And environment is a huge problem as well. How can one be expected to grow up with a strong work ethic and a positive attitude when they have nobody to learn it from? Certainly, teaching these things is beyond the ability and role of the public school system. No, this is something that must be learned at home and in life.

Now in most cases, teaching self reliance is not a reality. And while there may be ways of teaching these core values, they would involve sweeping changes that would largely be at odds with people's civil liberties. So what is the answer? Well, the real answer is that there may not be one. We have already gone so far down the wrong road with regard to the poor that there is little to no hope of every showing them the right path - they are caught in a very vicious cycle of poverty in which they are their own worst enemy.

So, who's problem is it? Is it fair to confiscate money from productive people and toss it into the futile black hole that is our current welfare system - a system that only perpetuates more poverty? I say no.

My solution, would be to let people fail and to cleanse their soul. I would get the people together on a huge farm, tell them their money is cut off and show them how to start from the beginning. I would show them how to build a log cabin and how to live off of the land. They would learn the value of hard work and self reliance and they would learn the value and importance of family and how to work with others toward a common goal.

You see, my way they would learn the core concepts of productive living. Wealth, is nothing more than building on these core concepts. You are familiar with the old saying "give a man a fish you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish you feed him for a lifetime." You believe in giving a man a fish, and it is a fish you would steal from another. I believe in teaching a man to fish, and I don't mean by giving a state of the art fishing vessel to a guy who has never cast a line.

 

[vh13]

Okay, before I begin my turn, let me just say I'm enjoying this conversation with you RickWhite. You have some insights and perspectives I don't have, and others that I have always respected in fellow self-made business owners. I think we only disagree on a few points, but we probably share more core values then those few points.

OK, if I am understanding you correctly you perceive people much like plants in that we all have an equal desire to grow and flourish and that all of us will do so provided our basic needs are met and we all have a place in the sun. I'm telling you this is incorrect.

Not necessarily, I'm motivated by self-interest as well because I believe in what I preach. Forgive me if I sound communist, but I think of "redistribution" as a kind of social reinvestment. Anything more is gross waste and corruption, and actually runs contrary to my goals.

You're right, not everyone will be motivated towards success, but by and large the vast majority of people want to have meaningful work. Very few people are both selfish and lazy, we often call them criminals or con artists. Most human beings are just selfish, interested in their own advancement, and are perfectly willing to work with others for the sake of their own advancement if only they knew how.

Capitalism is essentially a reward based system, the best one we've come up with so far, except it's one major flaw is that without knowledge of the system a person will not only fail to achieve the rewards of using the system but can easily become a casualty of that system. Many of the social services I support already come with (and could definitely do with a great deal more) rewards/punishments based incentives. A hand out helps no one, a hand up helps us all.

What you need to understand is that poverty is more often than not like a disease. And it is like a disease that is unfortunately spread between people - especially from parent to child.

I agree, a disease that grows every generation.

I know teachers who have tried to teach inner city youth and after decades have given up. They say that they simply can not compete with the destructive forces of the parents and the streets.

I know, it's a big problem that will not go away in one generation. My girlfriend works at an elementary school. Many times she tells me about conversations she wishes she could have with the kids but can't because she has to answer to the parents and the school system, which is far from perfect.

But public education has proven to be the most cost effective way to educate as many kids as possible, and the return on our investment has increased every generation we've used it. The alternative? Before public education, most children never learned to read. You talk about a disease that grows, one generation of a mostly illiterate work force would be lethal to this economy.

Forget basic needs such as food and shelter - all Americans have that and it requires tremendously little. In fact, the most poor today have higher standards of living than the average family 50 years ago. So, get the silly notion that people don't have their basic needs met out of your head. I can buy adequate shelter for 10 people for $5,000 in Detroit. Go on Trulia is you doubt me. Hell, people live in mud huts all over the world and get by.

Sorry, but according to all the statistics I've ever come across you're actually dead wrong. The number of people living below the poverty line has increased. The only people who've experienced an increased quality of life are those who need no assistance, and their proportion of the population has decreased in recent decades.

Not all Americans have access to food and shelter. That is a myth. Fact is, the existing government social services are not able to provide enough support to meet the demand. That's why people like me ask for more support then is already provided.

Furthermore, according to the statistics significantly less of that money goes to waste compared to the myriad of non-profit companies who serve the same function.

But even providing one's own basic needs is a huge builder of character. Nobody knows more about self reliance and about the value of hard work than one who must chop his own wood to heat his home and who must till his own soil to grow food.

It is this underlying strength of character and knowledge of healthy living and self sufficiency that teaches one the basics of wealth building. When you teach people how to be self sufficient, you are teaching them how to build wealth. When you subsidize their existence, you teach them the opposite.

Without knowing these core concepts, there is little chance of success. The challenge is to find a way to teach the poor these core concepts. Most of them don't want to hear it for a number of reasons. One of these reasons is that they have bought into the victim mentality dreamed up by the Left and expressed by you above.

And environment is a huge problem as well. How can one be expected to grow up with a strong work ethic and a positive attitude when they have nobody to learn it from? Certainly, teaching these things is beyond the ability and role of the public school system. No, this is something that must be learned at home and in life.

Now in most cases, teaching self reliance is not a reality. And while there may be ways of teaching these core values, they would involve sweeping changes that would largely be at odds with people's civil liberties. So what is the answer? Well, the real answer is that there may not be one. We have already gone so far down the wrong road with regard to the poor that there is little to no hope of every showing them the right path - they are caught in a very vicious cycle of poverty in which they are their own worst enemy.

So, who's problem is it? Is it fair to confiscate money from productive people and toss it into the futile black hole that is our current welfare system - a system that only perpetuates more poverty? I say no.

My solution, would be to let people fail and to cleanse their soul. I would get the people together on a huge farm, tell them their money is cut off and show them how to start from the beginning. I would show them how to build a log cabin and how to live off of the land. They would learn the value of hard work and self reliance and they would learn the value and importance of family and how to work with others toward a common goal.

You see, my way they would learn the core concepts of productive living. Wealth, is nothing more than building on these core concepts. You are familiar with the old saying "give a man a fish you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish you feed him for a lifetime." You believe in giving a man a fish, and it is a fish you would steal from another. I believe in teaching a man to fish, and I don't mean by giving a state of the art fishing vessel to a guy who has never cast a line.

All of this is great, I couldn't agree more, the core principles you just described are exactly what I'd love to see in the hearts of every person struggling to escape subsistence living. You plan to feed them, shelter them, and provide them with an education so they're equipped to take care of themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if you stock up on antibiotics (they're so cheap) so you can treat minor sicknesses so they can continue to learn and grow every day they're under your tutelage!

But again, it comes down to access. Access to information, access to these principles, access to leaders who are willing to depose their wisdom into the minds of those who need it.

Le me ask you this, do you volunteer 10% of your time teaching people in exactly the manner you described? Because that's probably about what is coming out of your taxes to pay for existing social services that attempt to do what you just described. They may fall short, they may not be able to provide as effective a teaching method as you or a lot of other self-made business owners but where they excel is in scale.

You or I or all the other self-made business owners couldn't possibly teach every child and poverty stricken person in America, our time is very valuable and could very well be better spent driving the economy; an economy that feeds us (business owners) just as much as we feed it.

But for 10% of your income (about what you're taxed now to pay for existing social services), and 10% of the income of every participant of this economy, this large and complex economic engine turns over one generation at a time. With 10% of your fish we can attempt to expand the economy of this nation by teaching as many people to fish as we can using a large and sometimes wasteful system, or you can make absolutely no fish and attempt to teach them yourself... or not... we could do neither.

But like it or not, our current economic engine has been fueled by social reinvestment for generations already. You never did directly answer my question about whether or not you attended public school.

The question is: from this point forward do we invest more in our own people? Do we invest the same? Or do we invest less?

 

[NoDrama]

You say you came from nothing, did you go to public school as a child? Do you think this economy would be what it is today without public access to education over generations? This large and complex modern economy requires many highly skilled and specialized experts, many of which require years of training and even more experience.

If this were true, why is that home schooled children statistically leave the publicly educated children in the dust when it comes to testing of subject matter?

 

[vh13]

If this were true, why is that home schooled children statistically leave the publicly educated children in the dust when it comes to testing of subject matter?

Because single moms who must work every day (like my mother did) don't matter, and neither do their children.

 

[RickWhite]

VH13, I'm getting the impression you have never been around poor people. First, it sounds like you are describing a situation that might exist in Bangladesh but not in the US. Read my thread "My Ghetto Gas Station" to learn about the reality of just how much the poor have at their disposal. Did you know they are giving them pre-paid cell phones as part of their general assistance? There is nobody here that is not receiving far more than they need to survive. Like I said, 10 people can buy a house in Detroit for $5,000 and pool their resources. Ask the Mexicans that do it, ask the Albanians that came here and did it, ask the Arabs that did it while building business'.

And I don't know where you get these "statistics" but the poor in America have one of the highest standards of living of anyone in the world. People in China or India would be happy to earn 1/10 of the US poverty line. Most poor people in the US have cable TV, air conditioning and a car - not to mention $200 sneakers. In the time of the Framers they didn't have electricity or indoor plumbing. My father's generation grew up without a TV and kept their food in an ice box that required daily stocking of ice. They repaired their shoes, darned their socks and were lucky if a family of 4 had 1 car.

In the end, people have been trying to lift the poor out of poverty through handouts for decades and it has never proven successful. In fact, it has proven horribly destructive. Visit an Indian reservation (that isn't casino funded) and you will see just how ineffective such policies are. It isn't as if redistribution has never been tried.

As far as schools are concerned, you are discussing things like learning how to read? Again, are we in the US or Rwanda? There is no place in the US in which children are not receiving a free basic education and nobody is discussing whether or not we should provide basic K-12 education. BTW, do you know what the high school graduation rate is in Detroit? It is around 30% depending on the source. And it isn't because the schools are cash strapped - there is no correlation between grades and funding. It is because the people are so damaged that it is virtually impossible to combat the social decay.

Now one could ask what causes this decay and I'm sure there are many theories. Mine, is that decay is a natural phenomenon. have you heard of entropy? It is a physics concept that says that everything spontaneously goes from a state of order to one of chaos. Life is no different. People need to constantly be working in order to avoid decay. We need to work on our lawns, our homes and our lives. Neighborhoods are no different. Poor neighborhoods are the product of not working toward order. What happens is that as some people continue to build their lives, they leave certain areas and certain people behind - the ones who don't work toward their own improvement. The value of the neighborhood goes down and other people who fail to work toward their own improvement move in and have children. Before you know it, you have a poor neighborhood - a society of people immersed in social decay. And often, these are areas that were not previously poor.

But you see, this is what Conservatism is all about. It is about spreading a healthy and positive mentality that shows people the path toward success and well being. Liberalism, in the name of compassion accomplishes the opposite. It spreads the message of a victim mentality and it encourages people to live in a way that will bring about social and personal decay. People have a choice, they can live according to a moral code, make good healthy choices and bring happiness and success into their lives, or they can take the easy path in life. They can seek immediate pleasure, allow their social standards to slip a bit at a time and watch their lives and their society decay until you end up with Detroit. Now, the situation is so bad that business' can't even survive. The people are so violent and commit so much crime, they chase all the business' and all the jobs away.

You should make it a point to visit a city like Detroit and meet some of the people that live there. A significant portion of these people are unemployable do to their horrible attitude, violent and lazy ways. They have zero ambition and would rather steal than work. But hey, they feel entitled to it anyway.

 

[ViRedd]

Forgive me if I sound communist, but I think of "redistribution" as a kind of social reinvestment. Anything more is gross waste and corruption, and actually runs contrary to my goals.

I was wondering, vh, do you see the stickup man as a "redistributionist," and a person who is engaged in "social reinvestment?"

 

[RickWhite]

Because single moms who must work every day (like my mother did) don't matter, and neither do their children.

Good thing the Liberals convinced everyone that divorce doesn't harm children.

Intact families = wealth and health.

Broken homes = poverty and mental anguish.

Which part of this is so difficult to understand?

 

[doc111]

VH13, I'm getting the impression you have never been around poor people. First, it sounds like you are describing a situation that might exist in Bangladesh but not in the US. Read my thread "My Ghetto Gas Station" to learn about the reality of just how much the poor have at their disposal. Did you know they are giving them pre-paid cell phones as part of their general assistance? There is nobody here that is not receiving far more than they need to survive. Like I said, 10 people can buy a house in Detroit for $5,000 and pool their resources. Ask the Mexicans that do it, ask the Albanians that came here and did it, ask the Arabs that did it while building business'.

And I don't know where you get these "statistics" but the poor in America have one of the highest standards of living of anyone in the world. People in China or India would be happy to earn 1/10 of the US poverty line. Most poor people in the US have cable TV, air conditioning and a car - not to mention $200 sneakers. In the time of the Framers they didn't have electricity or indoor plumbing. My father's generation grew up without a TV and kept their food in an ice box that required daily stocking of ice. They repaired their shoes, darned their socks and were lucky if a family of 4 had 1 car.

In the end, people have been trying to lift the poor out of poverty through handouts for decades and it has never proven successful. In fact, it has proven horribly destructive. Visit an Indian reservation (that isn't casino funded) and you will see just how ineffective such policies are. It isn't as if redistribution has never been tried.

As far as schools are concerned, you are discussing things like learning how to read? Again, are we in the US or Rwanda? There is no place in the US in which children are not receiving a free basic education and nobody is discussing whether or not we should provide basic K-12 education. BTW, do you know what the high school graduation rate is in Detroit? It is around 30% depending on the source. And it isn't because the schools are cash strapped - there is no correlation between grades and funding. It is because the people are so damaged that it is virtually impossible to combat the social decay.

Now one could ask what causes this decay and I'm sure there are many theories. Mine, is that decay is a natural phenomenon. have you heard of entropy? It is a physics concept that says that everything spontaneously goes from a state of order to one of chaos. Life is no different. People need to constantly be working in order to avoid decay. We need to work on our lawns, our homes and our lives. Neighborhoods are no different. Poor neighborhoods are the product of not working toward order. What happens is that as some people continue to build their lives, they leave certain areas and certain people behind - the ones who don't work toward their own improvement. The value of the neighborhood goes down and other people who fail to work toward their own improvement move in and have children. Before you know it, you have a poor neighborhood - a society of people immersed in social decay. And often, these are areas that were not previously poor.

But you see, this is what Conservatism is all about. It is about spreading a healthy and positive mentality that shows people the path toward success and well being. Liberalism, in the name of compassion accomplishes the opposite. It spreads the message of a victim mentality and it encourages people to live in a way that will bring about social and personal decay. People have a choice, they can live according to a moral code, make good healthy choices and bring happiness and success into their lives, or they can take the easy path in life. They can seek immediate pleasure, allow their social standards to slip a bit at a time and watch their lives and their society decay until you end up with Detroit. Now, the situation is so bad that business' can't even survive. The people are so violent and commit so much crime, they chase all the business' and all the jobs away.

You should make it a point to visit a city like Detroit and meet some of the people that live there. A significant portion of these people are unemployable do to their horrible attitude, violent and lazy ways. They have zero ambition and would rather steal than work. But hey, they feel entitled to it anyway.

It's all about the choices we make. I'm not saying that some people don't get a raw deal in life. I made a conscious decision to join the military out of high school. I went to college and got a masters degree. I became a firefighter/paramedic and now I own my own small business. My parents were working class through and through. We weren't wealthy. We didn't have a lot of stuff when I was growing up because we simply couldn't afford it. My parents couldn't help me out with college so I decided to go into the military as a way to pay for school and get real world experience. That experience alone helped me realize that I was capable of way more than I thought I was. Not everyone can be a neurosurgeon and not everyone should. I didn't concern myself much with material wealth because I understood at a relatively young age that it couldn't buy happiness. I made choices that got me where I am today. Some were good choices and some weren't but all the choices I've made have shaped the person I am today and with few exceptions, I wouldn't change.

I'm reminded of the first homeless person I recall seeing at about age 7 or 8. He had a sign that said "Will work for food" or something implying he was hungry. My dad offered to buy him a meal if he would walk across the street with us so my father could pay for his meal. He declined. Now why would he do that?

 

[vh13]

Good thing the Liberals convinced everyone that divorce doesn't harm children.

Intact families = wealth and health.

Broken homes = poverty and mental anguish.

Which part of this is so difficult to understand?

Are you suggesting my mother should have stayed with a drunk and abusive husband? I don't advocate divorce, but I do advocate enabling individuals to make better informed decisions that meet their moral values as much as is humanely possible.

Yes, I have lived with the poor. I've lived without plumbing and electricity too, and I've gone without shoes that fit and so couldn't wear them, and during some times of my youth I had so little food to eat my body didn't grow proportionately with the other kids and I relied on government provided food for nutrition.

You imply you are interested in "spreading a healthy and positive mentality that shows people the path toward success and well being." Yet your thoughts on entropy imply you are a pessimistic person who believes all poor people are fated towards destruction and thus deserve no redemption.

My mother was a poor person who accepted help numerous times by her government. All "handouts" my mother received while raising my siblings and me have been payed back in full plus a great deal of interest by my mother, after she had time to devote to a career after raising me. Post schooling, my siblings and I have never burdened the social support systems with our needs, though it will take a few years yet before our taxed incomes will pay back the actual cost of our educations.

I am proof positive the system works. I am not alone either. Here in California I have met a great many people in my life who have used social support systems to help themselves rise above difficult life circumstances to better themselves like my mother did.

This notion that social support funding goes towards iPods, cell phones, cable TV is false. By and large, social support funding is very strictly monitored and only given upon certain conditions.

Food stamps can only be used to buy food. Government sponsored housing only provides shelter to those who meet strict criteria, which typically includes maintaining a job and requires positive social behavior. Unemployment runs out if you don't find work. Public education prepares our workers for the job market, most find work.

I know of no government sponsored program that makes it easier for poor people to go out and buy an iPod, and live the kind of lifestyle you are describing. Most programs are intended only to meet a specific need of survival.

You make a divide between liberals and conservatives, I don't care about such distinctions personally, I'm an issues kind of guy. Yet only under conservative regime has tax money been freely distributed to the poor without conditions, a complete hand out.

 

[RickWhite]

Are you suggesting my mother should have stayed with a drunk and abusive husband? I don't advocate divorce, but I do advocate enabling individuals to make better informed decisions that meet their moral values as much as is humanely possible.

I am suggesting that men ought not be drunken wife beaters! How do you not understand this? Who's fault is it that your father acted this way? Is it societies fault? Have you failed to notice that you have just identified the source of your hardship as being precisely one of the endemic, cultural causes I have been talking about. And, that this example is the exact opposite of your blame society viewpoint.

Guess what, healthy well adjusted men do not drink to much and hit their wives, and healthy well adjusted women don't marry abusive men. Sorry, not trying to put down your family but you just are not seeing the forest for the trees.

What do you suppose would have been the outcome, had your father's abusive ways been prevented? That is the the $64,000 question that you should be asking. That is how these problems will be solved - not by blaming society and how wealth is "distributed."


Yes, I have lived with the poor. I've lived without plumbing and electricity too, and I've gone without shoes that fit and so couldn't wear them, and during some times of my youth I had so little food to eat my body didn't grow proportionately with the other kids and I relied on government provided food for nutrition.

You imply you are interested in "spreading a healthy and positive mentality that shows people the path toward success and well being." Yet your thoughts on entropy imply you are a pessimistic person who believes all poor people are fated towards destruction and thus deserve no redemption.

No, I am saying that EVERYTHING is fated toward chaos and that we must always work against it. That is the way of the Universe and man is no different.


My mother was a poor person who accepted help numerous times by her government. All "handouts" my mother received while raising my siblings and me have been payed back in full plus a great deal of interest by my mother, after she had time to devote to a career after raising me. Post schooling, my siblings and I have never burdened the social support systems with our needs, though it will take a few years yet before our taxed incomes will pay back the actual cost of our educations.

I am proof positive the system works.

Are you, or are you proof that in America people can rise above their lot?

I am not alone either. Here in California I have met a great many people in my life who have used social support systems to help themselves rise above difficult life circumstances to better themselves like my mother did.

I've always been confused by the whole notion of how one can live in one of the most expensive places in the US and be considered poor. I always thought just living in California was a luxury afforded only to the wealthy. "Poor people" in $250,000 homes just never made sense to me.

This notion that social support funding goes towards iPods, cell phones, cable TV is false. By and large, social support funding is very strictly monitored and only given upon certain conditions.

Sorry, but now you are simply talking out of your ass. You clearly haven't seen much of the US. Here in Detroit welfare fraud is a cottage industry.

Food stamps can only be used to buy food. Government sponsored housing only provides shelter to those who meet strict criteria, which typically includes maintaining a job and requires positive social behavior.

See above.

Unemployment runs out if you don't find work. Public education prepares our workers for the job market, most find work.

Not in the ghetto.

I know of no government sponsored program that makes it easier for poor people to go out and buy an iPod, and live the kind of lifestyle you are describing. Most programs are intended only to meet a specific need of survival.

Because we all know that government programs run exactly as intended. You are naive.

You make a divide between liberals and conservatives, I don't care about such distinctions personally, I'm an issues kind of guy. Yet only under conservative regime has tax money been freely distributed to the poor without conditions, a complete hand out.

I am not against helping those such as yourself who find themselves in a situation of temporary need. What I am against is the endless waste fraud and abuse that is very common. I am also against generation after generation of professional welfare recipients who have no intention of ever working save for selling crack and stealing. Quite Frankly, if a guy is going to break into my house, I don't want tax dollars making sure he is in good enough shape to do it.

You say you are a business owner. Do you employ anyone in low paying positions? If so, what type of people apply for these positions? Are they great workers down on their luck, or are they for the most part where they are in life for good reason? I have employed and interviewed quite a few and I already know that the latter is more frequently the case.

I must say, and I mean no insult, that you sound like someone with little understanding of people and of life. How can you not see that your problems come from the fact that you came from an abusive home with issues of alcoholism? And yet here you are blaming the way the free market operates. But see, this is exactly the kind of damaged mind set that keeps people down. You can not see life clearly because your thinking is colored by past abuse that you have yet to free your self from.

You say you concern your self with issues. Concern your self with how we help people like you break the mental chains that keep them down. It is these chains and not some imagined stacked deck that enslaves people. Break free of these chains and you will see this is true.

 

[vh13]

You say you concern your self with issues. Concern your self with how we help people like you break the mental chains that keep them down. It is these chains and not some imagined stacked deck that enslaves people. Break free of these chains and you will see this is true.

I'm sorry sir, but I don't think you understand the helplessness of poverty. There is no imagined stacked deck, the basic needs of life are very real. A $250,000 home in California comes with basic plumbing and electrical wiring.

You assume I assign blame on the rest of society for my hardships. I do not, I blame the people who committed them against me. In fact, I feel empowered by society for it's faith in me, hence my faith in society. My family was given a helping hand up. What is there for me to be bitter about?

In all your talk of knowing the right path, I think this one statement pretty much sums up your ignorance:

"What do you suppose would have been the outcome, had your father's abusive ways been prevented?"

I am the product of my father and mother, who were the products of their fathers and mothers, and so on down the line. I come from a long line of alcoholics and abusers on both sides of my family. Guess what... I'm not an abusive alcoholic. I have been prevented.

Yes, I have worked with poor folks, and yes there are many I would choose not to hire or work with, much the same with middle class or upper class folk. However, it's been my observation poor folk only need a larger initial investment, much the same as I did, and when given the opportunity to prove their worth some (not most, granted) have out-shined upper-middle class folks. In my experience, poor folk who've been empowered make the most dedicated and industrious workers.

The sense of entitlement you describe, the lazy and arrogant mindset that others must work for one's own selfish pleasure, I've only found in upper-middle class folks. Not wealthy folks, mind you. It's been my observation that the non-rich who live rich are the ones who seem to think they don't need to work to survive, that everything should be handed to them on a silver platter because they are special.

 

[abe23]

Rick thinks he understands everything about poverty and poor people because he buys gas in downtown detroit and sees people buying booze, cigarettes, blunt wraps and lottery tickets. If only they were smart enough to invest all that cash they blow on such frivolous pleasures into mutual funds and stock options, they would all be millionaires in no time.

It's also funny how conservatives are always talking about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, but if someone actually does that, they start bitching about affirmative action, welfare and 'it's only because he's black or only because she's a woman'. Obama for instance is only president because he's black and not at all because he was smart and worked hard.

 

[Keenly2]

thats strange rick my parents got divorced but i turned out just fine



hmm....

 

[RickWhite]

I'm sorry sir, but I don't think you understand the helplessness of poverty. There is no imagined stacked deck, the basic needs of life are very real. A $250,000 home in California comes with basic plumbing and electrical wiring.

You assume I assign blame on the rest of society for my hardships. I do not, I blame the people who committed them against me. In fact, I feel empowered by society for it's faith in me, hence my faith in society. My family was given a helping hand up. What is there for me to be bitter about?

In all your talk of knowing the right path, I think this one statement pretty much sums up your ignorance:

"What do you suppose would have been the outcome, had your father's abusive ways been prevented?"

I am the product of my father and mother, who were the products of their fathers and mothers, and so on down the line. I come from a long line of alcoholics and abusers on both sides of my family. Guess what... I'm not an abusive alcoholic. I have been prevented.

Yes, I have worked with poor folks, and yes there are many I would choose not to hire or work with, much the same with middle class or upper class folk. However, it's been my observation poor folk only need a larger initial investment, much the same as I did, and when given the opportunity to prove their worth some (not most, granted) have out-shined upper-middle class folks. In my experience, poor folk who've been empowered make the most dedicated and industrious workers.

The sense of entitlement you describe, the lazy and arrogant mindset that others must work for one's own selfish pleasure, I've only found in upper-middle class folks. Not wealthy folks, mind you. It's been my observation that the non-rich who live rich are the ones who seem to think they don't need to work to survive, that everything should be handed to them on a silver platter because they are special.

May I ask where you grew up? I'm guessing it was some middle class, white neighborhood without much opportunity. You have an interesting take on our Country's poor that I know for a fact comes from your own wishful interpretation and not from objective observation.

I run a business deep in Detroit, I am around this crap 5 days a week for years and I saw it growing up as well. I was very poor myself. My parents divorced when I was a child and my mother worked for minimum wage which was less than $3 per hour to support me and my sister. She never took a dime of government money.

Your view that all most poor people need to make it big in life is an initial sum of cash is nothing more than a product of your imagination that is disproven time after time 365 days a year in every state in the country. Most poor people will find a way of stepping on their own dick no matter what you give them. Sure, there are a few who just need that one break - I was one of them, but most simply do not have to mental tools required for success no matter what you do for them.

Read the book "Rich dad, poor dad." There is a fundamental difference in the way successful people and unsuccessful people think. In fact, I had a guy working for me at one time that I had to fire because he was sleeping on the job - evidently he was partying all night. The guy doesn't have a pot to piss in or a window to through it out of. He has two boys and in his low rent little 600 square foot home he had a 60" + TV that he bought for $3,500 on credit. And, he had a couple of game systems and well over $1,000 in games. Oh, and the guy threw a fit when we canned him and started doing burnouts in my parking lot with his girlfriend's car - with no driver's license. Yep, all this guy needs is a break all right.

Look; hang out a sign for a $10 per hour job and see who applies. Do you really think you will get a personable 30 year old with an awesome work ethic and great people skills who is reliable and trustworthy and shows up bright eyed and bushy tailed? Fuck no you wont - you will be lucky to get a schmuck who shows up most of the time, doesn't drag his feet too much and doesn't steal from you. If you doubt this, it's because you have never hired an employee for such a job.

The simple fact is that you are still blaming society for the fucked up hand you were dealt in life. Why not just accept the fact that you had a tough time because you had crappy parents. And instead of living in denial and thinking that problems such as yours can be solved by throwing money at them, why don't you join in the fight to make sure that other kids don't have to deal with what you did.

Look, if I gave you two choices which would you chose? A) You could be born into a wealthy but abusive and dysfunctional family. B) You could be born into a good healthy loving family that struggled with money. I would choose the latter any day.

 

[max420thc]

lifes not fair..waaa. waaaaa. A GOOD SOLIDER HAS NO EXCUSE. EXCUSES ARE LIKE ASS HOLES.
you know when i plant a seed a grow a plant if i have a weak straglly one i pull that bitch up...along with ALOT of the males...you dont hear them crying because they were destroyed for being weak? all men are created equal. after that it is what you make of yourself.that which does not kill me makes me stronger.

 

[vh13]

May I ask where you grew up? I'm guessing it was some middle class, white neighborhood without much opportunity. You have an interesting take on our Country's poor that I know for a fact comes from your own wishful interpretation and not from objective observation.

I grew up in California mostly, though I've lived in Alaska and South Carolina as well. I moved a lot, at first into progressively smaller and more obsolete living spaces.

For a time I lived in a shack large enough to fit two beds in the mountains outside Santa Barbara side by side with other shack dwellers. I had no shoes. Only one of us on that mountain had electricity or plumbing, he was wealthy, he owned the land, he did not share his wealth, he charged us rent, but none of us were bothered by this relationship. We ate blackberry's ripened in the sun and felt great freedom, he worked hard and lived a very stressful life and his body suffered for it. We figured he would die young, like his father did. Some of us had a hole in the ground to shit in. Most of us on that mountain felt fortunate in our ignorance. Most felt they deserved nothing more then the existence they lived and so kept going, year after year, living in squalor, asking for nothing more in their lives, unable to even form the question. You could say they were lazy, yes... but they had no sense of entitlement. Perhaps they simply chose to have less because they didn't know how to attain more.

But my mother was selfish, she attended college and received government aid while we lived in that shack. At some point she was able to move back down into the city and save herself a long commute but because she no longer qualified for some of the aid she received in the past she had to make a difficult choice, to either: 1) continue to live desperately poor and keep her children close at all times 2) Continue to work hard, and send her children off to live somewhere else temporarily until circumstances are better.

For a time I didn't get to live with either of my parents. I don't like to talk about that time, but let me just say this: if I could have lived with my mother during that time I probably never would have received the bulk of my mental scars.

I don't blame her, however, because she accomplished what she set out to do, and took us back, and set me up to live the life I have now. I don't blame society either, because without help from the tax payers of this nation I might very well still be stuck on that mountain... or worse.

I run a business deep in Detroit, I am around this crap 5 days a week for years and I saw it growing up as well. I was very poor myself. My parents divorced when I was a child and my mother worked for minimum wage which was less than $3 per hour to support me and my sister. She never took a dime of government money.

Your view that all most poor people need to make it big in life is an initial sum of cash is nothing more than a product of your imagination that is disproven time after time 365 days a year in every state in the country. Most poor people will find a way of stepping on their own dick no matter what you give them. Sure, there are a few who just need that one break - I was one of them, but most simply do not have to mental tools required for success no matter what you do for them.

You exaggerate the scope of my argument, so of course it seems foolish.

I made no claims about using big sums of raw cash, or about poor folk making it big. I talked about using tiny sums of cash to pay for food, shelter, medicine, education... and for the sake of making it far enough to find a more valuable function in society then bloody worthless peasant.

Read the book "Rich dad, poor dad." There is a fundamental difference in the way successful people and unsuccessful people think. In fact, I had a guy working for me at one time that I had to fire because he was sleeping on the job - evidently he was partying all night. The guy doesn't have a pot to piss in or a window to through it out of. He has two boys and in his low rent little 600 square foot home he had a 60" + TV that he bought for $3,500 on credit. And, he had a couple of game systems and well over $1,000 in games. Oh, and the guy threw a fit when we canned him and started doing burnouts in my parking lot with his girlfriend's car - with no driver's license. Yep, all this guy needs is a break all right.

I have read most of Kiyosaki's books. You do know the stories in his book "Rich Dad Poor Dad" are fiction, right?

I've also read Robert Allen, Timothy Ferris, George Clason, David Bach, and Paul Getty... and lots of books and writings from authors with similar messages. It is exactly their principles which re-affirms my belief: that by managing expenses balanced with a careful and judicious re-investment of wealth you can increase it.

Look; hang out a sign for a $10 per hour job and see who applies. Do you really think you will get a personable 30 year old with an awesome work ethic and great people skills who is reliable and trustworthy and shows up bright eyed and bushy tailed? Fuck no you wont - you will be lucky to get a schmuck who shows up most of the time, doesn't drag his feet too much and doesn't steal from you. If you doubt this, it's because you have never hired an employee for such a job.

I agree, there are a lot of people out there who are not equipped with everything they need to be responsible. Many probably don't care. But your few experiences are overshadowed by the fact MOST poor people in this country do work most of their lives, but because they have no wealth the moment they fall short...

The people you describe encountering have no job, and probably for good reason as you state. But these are not the majority of poor folk. These are a minority.

The simple fact is that you are still blaming society for the fucked up hand you were dealt in life. Why not just accept the fact that you had a tough time because you had crappy parents. And instead of living in denial and thinking that problems such as yours can be solved by throwing money at them, why don't you join in the fight to make sure that other kids don't have to deal with what you did.

Repeat one statement of mine where I blame society? From this point forward, please stop assigning your warped perspective about others onto me or this conversation will go nowhere.

I have joined in the fight. I volunteer my time and energy helping suicidal kids who come from abusive homes. Believe me, I know the considerable cost it takes to even attempt to help lift someone up. In all your preachy claims, what have you done, besides pay taxes and complain about it?

I'll leave the insult to my mother alone, but only because the insult to my blood father is valid and you're too ignorant to see the difference between them, all you can see is your own prejudice against poor folk.

Look, if I gave you two choices which would you chose? A) You could be born into a wealthy but abusive and dysfunctional family. B) You could be born into a good healthy loving family that struggled with money. I would choose the latter any day.

I had no choice, and neither did you. No one has a choice in where they start.

For the record, I have yet to meet one person who comes from a wealthy but abusive and dysfunctional family. I'm not saying it's impossible for the two to exist together, but it seems to me you're the one with the imagination.