Redistribution

undertheice

Well-Known Member
Anyone want to tackle the problem of discrimination against people with wealth ?
but that isn't considered discrimination, it's called vengeance. didn't you know that the rich can only make their money by stealing it from the poor? where the poor got all that money we'll never know. take a good look at any posts that advocate wealth redistribution or deny that this is the intent of the liberal establishment and you'll see envy dripping from every word. we are quickly becoming a nation steeped in the politics of envy, with a judicial system based on vengeance, and so many of us seem far too satisfied with the resulting destruction.

none of these self-described victims seems to understand that destitution is mankind's natural state and that all this wealth was created, it didn't just magically appear. i wonder how many of these victims of capitalism have big screen televisions, a decent car in the garage and a relatively leak free roof over their heads. do they really think that that is what poverty is all about? i wonder how many of the downtrodden enjoy employment provided by these exploiters of the working class and haven't the faintest idea how to go about starting a business on their own, the sacrifices it takes to invest in its future and the risks involved in each new venture. do they really think that all you have to do is hang out a shingle and the customers will come running?

at the moment of birth each man is equal. after that it's a crap shoot.


 

Anjinsan

Well-Known Member
So using that logic, Bill Gates' kids have the same opportunity and advantages at birth as the rest of us.
So how exactly do you think Bill Gates should be punished for being successful?

Ultimately you want what he earned. How should you take it?

Anyone that creates 10,000 jobs should be penalized how much?

Anyone that has never created a job in their life should get rewarded how much?
 

ink the world

Well-Known Member
So how exactly do you think Bill Gates should be punished for being successful?

Ultimately you want what he earned. How should you take it?

Anyone that creates 10,000 jobs should be penalized how much?

Anyone that has never created a job in their life should get rewarded how much?

Nice job completely twisting my words to meet your needs. I NEVER, NOT ONCE
mentioned "penalty" or "penalization. take a basic reading comprehension class please.
 

Anjinsan

Well-Known Member
Nice job completely twisting my words to meet your needs. I NEVER, NOT ONCE
mentioned "penalty" or "penalization. take a basic reading comprehension class please.
Toss the insults at someone who cares about your judgement.

Please reset your anger and answer this question:

Do you think it is unfair that Bill Gates children will have easier access to the means for success than yourself...yes or no?
 

Anjinsan

Well-Known Member
Furthermore do the pro-re-distrubution folk feel it is fair that you have enough to eat while millions in Africa do not? Should we all not be a little bit hungry so that nobody is starving?
 

Man o' the green

Active Member
So how exactly do you think Bill Gates should be punished for being successful?
Bill gates should be commended for creating jobs and distributing wealth to his employees and shareholders. He should be punished for releasing so many crappy versions of windows. :cuss:
Ultimately you want what he earned. How should you take it?
As much as possible and then give a small fraction to the poor.
Anyone that creates 10,000 jobs should be penalized how much?
Until they realize the power of the state and bow to it.
Anyone that has never created a job in their life should get rewarded how much?
It's our right to have a house, car, computer, etc. no matter how much we produce. The working man is exploited.
 

ink the world

Well-Known Member
Toss the insults at someone who cares about your judgement.

Please reset your anger and answer this question:

Do you think it is unfair that Bill Gates children will have easier access to the means for success than yourself...yes or no?
LOl i have no anger, if it came off that way I apologize. I'm just mystified by your comment. You DID twist what I said, I never said BG should be "penalized."



As for answering your question do I think a person born into wealth has a better leg up than my child of course he would.

I do OK, I make the average Americans salary. That being said I cant afford to send my kids to the finest private schools throughout their educational span.

Bill Gates can. His kids WILL have the OPPORTUNITY to a better education and the benefits of that education than yours or mine.

Of course that doesnt mean they take advantage of the opportunity and turn out to be laze shits. The difference being his lazy kids will have a massive trust fund and can afford it. Mine will have to work just as I have to get what Ive gotten for my family and myself.
 

Anjinsan

Well-Known Member
You see we CAN compete with the Chinese. Their average factory worker makes $1.06 an hour. American factory workers make on average $18 an hour. We just need to raise them to $9.50 a hour (we cannot force them to comply) and lower ours to $9.50 an hour. (we can do that) Then the re-distrubution will be even at the blue collar worker level.
 

Anjinsan

Well-Known Member
LOl i have no anger, if it came off that way I apologize. I'm just mystified by your comment. You DID twist what I said, I never said BG should be "penalized."



As for answering your question do I think a person born into wealth has a better leg up than my child of course he would.

I do OK, I make the average Americans salary. That being said I cant afford to send my kids to the finest private schools throughout their educational span.

Bill Gates can. His kids WILL have the OPPORTUNITY to a better education and the benefits of that education than yours or mine.

Of course that doesnt mean they take advantage of the opportunity and turn out to be laze shits. The difference being his lazy kids will have a massive trust fund and can afford it. Mine will have to work just as I have to get what Ive gotten for my family and myself.
That is as it has always been in this nation. The number 1 way to be rich...is to be born so. That comprises the VAST majority of the wealthy people in America. The #2 way? to marry into money. The #3 way is hard work and by far represents an almost invisible sliver on the wealth pie chart.

I too am of the not wealthy set. Do I like that? Not really. Would I like to be very wealthy? Yes.

But we need jobs. This country is in dire straights. If you are 18...you don't see it. If you are in college...you don't see it. If you are in your 30's (like me) you see it plain as day.

This nation needs jobs...not wealth redistribution. ESPECIALLY not on a global scale. That is apocalypse. It'll take 30 years for China to raise wages to our minimum wage. Can we afford to bleed jobs to them for that long? What about the next nation? When China gets too expensive...why not outsource jobs to Thailand? It'll never end. There will always be a super poor nation to exploit at the cost of the US worker.
 

ink the world

Well-Known Member
That is as it has always been in this nation. The number 1 way to be rich...is to be born so. That comprises the VAST majority of the wealthy people in America. The #2 way? to marry into money. The #3 way is hard work and by far represents an almost invisible sliver on the wealth pie chart.



I completely agree w/ you here.

I too am of the not wealthy set. Do I like that? Not really. Would I like to be very wealthy? Yes.
Same of course.



But we need jobs. This country is in dire straights. If you are 18...you don't see it. If you are in college...you don't see it. If you are in your 30's (like me) you see it plain as day.


Im 39, college educated, I also own my own small business (tattooist) I also work a second job. During the summer months I work on average 60+ hours a week, I understand hard work .


This nation needs jobs...not wealth redistribution. ESPECIALLY not on a global scale. That is apocalypse. It'll take 30 years for China to raise wages to our minimum wage. Can we afford to bleed jobs to them for that long? What about the next nation? When China gets too expensive...why not outsource jobs to Thailand? It'll never end. There will always be a super poor nation to exploit at the cost of the US worker.

We are in somewhat agreement here. For me its difficult to see a business having record profits while sending work overseas.

I have no problem w/ a business maiking a ton of $, but why not take a slightly smaller piece of the pie and keep jobs here or pay the worker here a living wage.

That IS the difference between now and our parents generation. Back then a couple that had a factory job could afford a home, 2 kids the whole American Dream. I know this because my 2 immigrant grandparents WERE factory workers.

2 factory workers would be lucky to feed the family and live in a crummy apartment now.
This is why the middle class has almost become a dinosau.


I would be ecstatic to spend $20 a week more for my goods if they were all made here by us. I think many of us would
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
vh13 expressed the point very succinctly. Under a "capitalist" system, the rich definently have the advantage. Think about it, "capitalism", The ability to use capital, (Money) to grow wealth. If one lives on the subsistence level or below, (and there are plenty of us) they have no capital to invest. Without investment capital, they are fated to a very poor existence, with no way to escape. With jobs that pay minimum wage or slightly higher, it takes two incomes just to survive, where do these people fit in the capitalist system, that's right, they are the pawns. It takes a giant opportunity, (they are few and far between) to escape the poverty of the inner city and the slums, even lower middle class can't move up. The most movers are in the upper middle and up. If you aint born there, forget it. I worked my ass off for 50 friken years, survival wages, I have not much to show for it, and I made above average slave wages.
Are you a crackhead or something? This statement is about as ignorant a statement as I've seen from you, and that's saying a lot. How many people in this country have made something of themselves who started with nothing? I'm not saying it's easy but if it were everyone would be rich. Wouldn't that be nice? I agree there seems to be an ever increasing gap between the haves and the have nots. I agree it's getting harder and harder to make something of yourself these days. It's not impossible. I don't think redistribution of wealth is the answer. Why would I want to continue to be wealthy if the govt. is just gonna take it from me? If I were wealthy I'd be outta here! Hell, I may still leave this country if things continue this way. This is not the America I served. :cry:

If you want it bad enough all you have to do is work hard and don't give up! Being rich isn't that important to me so I spent my life in public service. Helping others and doing a job I loved was a priority to me. If you want it you gotta make it happen. :weed:
 

dukeofbaja

New Member
Without investment capital, they are all but guaranteed to a very poor existence, with no way to escape.

If you want it bad enough all you have to do is work hard and don't give up!

Guess which statement here I agree with more?
(note - I edited med's statement by replacing 'fated' with a bit of a hedge)

Another note: I am marrying into money this summer so we'll see if my opinion changes once I sit down with a CPA for the first time ever next year, but as for now I am happy for the progressive income tax.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
You all forget that Bill Gates doesn't own Microsoft, just like no one person owns just about any big company you care to name. They don't call the shots when it comes to profits, The investors who own stock in the company are the greedy ones. They get pissed when their stock portfolios start bleeding red. Who are these people? The investors, every day people, 401K investors etc etc etc, granny in a wheelchair, you have only yourselves to blame.
 

vh13

Well-Known Member
It's nice when some have the luxury of working a job they love. But realize that's an individual choice that many people don't have. They work every day of their lives to meet survival, not for the sake of personal contentment.

Inheritance of title and wealth causes an unequal distribution of labor, limiting the potential contribution many people can make by preventing them from working jobs for which they may be ideally suited.

I'm glad someone brought up Bill Gates, because he really did nothing spectacular. In fact, many think of him as a real scoundrel. He was an opportunist who filled a need in a very large market, no different from many entrepreneurs in ages past, and with equally selfish abandon by restricting the growth of his own industry.

If Bill Gates was never born another man would have taken his place, the market simply had a need. If 100 people had the same access to computing technology he did at the same age he did and received the same support from local businesses as he did, we could potentially have 100 Microsoft/Windows, and out of those 100 competition would breed success. But because access to opportunity is so limited, and because of many unfair business practices afforded to the very rich and powerful Microsoft we have very few good alternatives.

Btw, Bill Gates redistributed the bulk of his wealth voluntarily, and he is still very wealthy. Many wealthy people redistribute their wealth voluntarily every year and are still wealthy. I've worked with many wealthy people, and they all redistribute their wealth voluntarily.

Whoever is abdicating we want to turn the rich into the poor should understand that the US has one of the LOWEST taxes in developed nations, and our economy has experienced slower growth in key industries then other developed nations because we have invested less in our own people for many years.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Whoever is abdicating we want to turn the rich into the poor should understand that the US has one of the LOWEST taxes in developed nations, and our economy has experienced slower growth in key industries then other developed nations because we have invested less in our own people for many years.
Not when you consider the biggest most well hidden tax there is...inflation. Inflation in the USA takes half of everything you make about every 10 years.
 

vh13

Well-Known Member
Not when you consider the biggest most well hidden tax there is...inflation. Inflation in the USA takes half of everything you make about every 10 years.
Inflation is why the trickle down system decays the health of a modern economy: the poor, who own little investments, lose more money to the rich, who own most of the investments.

The rich invest their assets to avoid losing them to inflation. The poor can make little or no investments and so suffer the ravages of smaller pay raises and higher costs of living.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
You must have learned this in college. It is a well constructed, concise explanation of the cycle of poverty and how Capitalism stacks the deck against the poor, but it is wrong in several areas.

We live in a society that is more free then in days past, yet remnants of the old Feudalism system still remain today.

Nonsense - people come to the US with nothing but the shirt on their back and become millionaires. That is nothing like life in a feudal system.

A very small percent of the population still owns a disproportionate amount of both wealth and power, and their children inherit a disproportionate amount of that wealth and power.

Wrong again and on the most fundamental level. There is no such thing as "the wealth." Such a belief is fictional. Wealth is something that is created by people. A teenage kid with nothing but a can of car wax, a shamy and ambition can create wealth.

The facts of the matter are this: poor people become poorer over time, because the cost of their lifestyle is greater then their value, or the potential of their earnings. In other words, this Feudalism derived system makes it hard for poor people to create wealth because they are constantly in debt to their own survival.

Woe! Feudalism or their own choices? People can live off of very little money if they choose. Immigrants come here by the thousands and live 3 families in a two bedroom apartment while building business'. I know because I do business with such people.

Most of the poor in the US are very wasteful and do a horrible job of managing their money - I see this every day in Detroit. See my thread "my ghetto gas station."

Your suggestion that this is the fault of a feudal system and not the bad choices of the poor is just plain fiction.


These are the class of people who must first WORK TO SURVIVE and who have little or nothing left over to invest afterward. It's not just the poor, most middle class in this country are victims to this trap as well, they don't realize it but generation after generation they are becoming poorer.

The problem is not that some have more then others. The problem is the de-stabilizing effect of an ever increasing debt of existence.

Not "existence" - irresponsible spending in most cases. People don't NEED smart phones and LCD TVs.


What happens when poor people suffer a hardship, like being fired? They struggle to get back into the position they were in before (all work until death, no gain in wealth) or are forced to go without food, clothing, shelter and access to medical care; as a result, their value in society only remains stagnant or goes down (hungry/injured/tired workers are less productive) until the debt/survival ratio becomes un-sustainable. At which point, any number of bad things tends happens, both to the individual and to the rest of society.

People who wake up early and work hard rarely wind up in this situation. There is help for those who really come upon hard times. Nobody starves in the US unless they want to.

What happens when rich people suffer a similar hardship? Very very few will drop down a rung in society; most will stimulate the economy with increased consumption of expensive luxuries to get over it, OR they make relationships with other rich people as part of the recovery process and get access to even more opportunities. This stimulates the economy in the short term, and effectively amounts to no net loss of personal wealth and sometimes acts as a catalyst for net gain of personal wealth.

Do you see the difference wealth creates? Wealth is a buffer, a stabilizer, that affords greater wealth.

Of course the wealthy have greater wealth building resources. But, a lot of times, the bigger they are the harder they fall. Try having a $20,000 per week payroll and having your business tank.

On the other hand, look at how many poor people have won the lottery or become flash in the pan rappers. A huge portion of these people make millions only to blow it all and wind up right back where they started. It all comes down to the decisions people make.

100% access to little things, like electricity, housing, food, clothing, and medicine, is what allows rich people the time to make investments in themselves, and thus become richer. Poor people struggle to meet these basic necessities, and where they fall short they loose access to opportunity and thus can never become rich as long as they are vulnerable to the very things rich people are immune.

There is truth to what you are saying. Want to know how to overcome this. The trick is a large close knit family - that is how the immigrants are able to do it. That is how the immigrants go from rags to riches. They pool their resources and provide a support structure.

Ah, but that family stuff sounds too much like on of those stuffy Conservative value judgments. A word to the wise - a strong family is the single most powerful builder of wealth known to man. It goes back to the caveman days and it still works.

The point of "redistribution" is to create opportunities for the majority that are otherwise only available to the rich; feudal lords kept their peasants poor and ignorant, much as the rich of today keep the middle and lower classes in ignorance of even their own value in the jobs they work and the economy as a whole.

This is just nonsense. Education is free and available to everyone and we all have the same opportunity. Sure, some of us are more likely to encounter given opportunities, but opportunity is available for everyone. There are no feudal lords oppressing anyone. Absolute nonsense. How does one person keep another ignorant in the US?

The truth is, there is enough wealth in this country that everyone can be rich, no one needs to be in poverty. Poverty serves no purpose in society, neither for the rich nor for the majority.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. In fact, that is an ignorant statement. Someone needs to flip hamburgers or they would be $30. Someone needs to mow lawns and clean toilets. No matter how much you pay a burger flipper, they will still be poor as long as their wealth is proportionately less than that of others. $100,000 per year is poverty when everyone else makes $1,000,000.

When all the basic needs of survival are met only then can individuals evolve, and by doing so they naturally tend to create wealth for themselves; they educate themselves, start businesses, invest in retirement plans.

By virtue of creating opportunity through wealth redistribution, a significantly larger portion of the population can lift themselves out of serfdom (lower/middle class) by creating wealth for themselves as individuals.

You are referring to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. While this theory is correct, you are missing something important. All of nature is laziness. When you subsidize people's existence, you remove the incentive for them to build wealth.


This has a profoundly positive effect on the economy not only because of reduced crime and more individuals have access to more wealth and thus spend more, but because whole industries can be created practically over night as more valued workers enter the market place.

Poverty doesn't cause crime but crime causes poverty. many poor do not steal and many wealthy do.

The point is not to pay for poor peoples existence outright generation after generation, the point is to extend the same leverage of existence the rich have so poor people can rise out of serfdom.

What aside from your imagination makes you think this would happen when all reasonable indications suggest it would not? Google Dave Chapel's "reparations" skit. This is nothing more than blind Left wing religion.

The way to help the poor is to teach them how to make the right choices, how to manage their money and how to work hard and be responsible. When people earn something they tend to value it, when they are given something, they only feel entitled to more. This is just life 101.

No one benefits by allowing poor people to continue to fall victim to helplessness, addiction and crime, the same as it's been for thousands of years. However, even the already rich can benefit from a flood of educated workers, workers who can afford to invest in themselves by making themselves more valuable rather then be criticized for failing to meet the basic needs of survival.
Why don't we just fly a plane over the ghetto and drop money. I've got news for you; if you gave every poor person a million dollars, they would blow it all in the first few years and be right back where they started. And the money would wind up right back in the pockets of the rich. Why? Because the rich know how to make money.

The answer is not throwing money at the problem. This has never worked. The answer in to teach people Conservative values. The answer is to teach people how to live a healthy lifestyle and to value the right things and make the right choices. Strong families are what give people their basic needs and more. A good work ethic, honesty, integrity, good people skills, a good attitude, ambition and the desire to learn. The answer is to spread these values, not discontentment, poor attitudes and a victim mentality.
 

vh13

Well-Known Member
You must have learned this in college. It is a well constructed, concise explanation of the cycle of poverty and how Capitalism stacks the deck against the poor, but it is wrong in several areas.
Not at all, quite the opposite actually. The American text book system has been heavily influenced by the Texas Board of Education for a long time. Fear not, Reagonomics is still all the rage in colleges.

I agree completely that the solution is to teach the poor how to live better. But how do you intend to do so without re-distributing the wealth of some to finance the education of the rest? How do you insure they're properly housed, clothed and fed so they're capable of retaining that knowledge and some day find meaningful work?
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
It's nice when some have the luxury of working a job they love. But realize that's an individual choice that many people don't have. They work every day of their lives to meet survival, not for the sake of personal contentment.

This sounds like it is straight from the Communist Manifesto. You have an interesting fictional view of economics.

The first product of your imagination is that not everyone in the US has the opportunity to go to college and get a good job. That just isn't true. We have all kinds of financial aid for the poor.



Inheritance of title and wealth causes an unequal distribution of labor, limiting the potential contribution many people can make by preventing them from working jobs for which they may be ideally suited.
WTF does this last paragraph even mean? This isn't even an intelligible point. First, people don't inherit a title - this isn't England under Henry VIII. WTF do you mean an "unequal distribution of labor"? That isn't even a real thing.

It sounds like what you are saying is that if a guy owns a company and employs people, he is limiting their potential. That is just plain dumb.

As an employer I can promise you that most people who have shitty jobs have them for a reason. And it is not because society oppresses them. I could speak all day about people to whom I have given opportunities only to have them bend over backward to blow it for themselves. Right now, I have a great guy who despite being of limited potential due to being a bit on the slow side is making a good, livable wage. He is making this wage not because his work is worth a lot, but mainly because he is reliable and trustworthy and puts in an honest days work. And that, is worth extra money to me.

You have some grand theories when it comes to the reality of poverty and of wealth building. While it is true that poverty can be tough to rise above, you are simply wrong in most of your assumptions.

Give me 5 reliable, hard workers willing to do what I say and I will produce 5 successful people. Why, because I know how to build wealth - it is a skill I have. Nobody gave me this skill and most of it was by accident of birth, but that skill makes me worth more than the next guy. And I know first hand how much harder it is to start with nothing because that is exactly what I did. All this means is that I need to work that much harder to get ahead. But, it can be done, I am proof. What is required above all else is a good mind.
 
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