Creation Vs Evolution

[RickWhite]

Why do people get so hung up on this? The bible is a philosophical work. Why do people argue about whether or not it is scientifically accurate when it isn't supposed to be?

I'll tell you why, it's because the human brain tends to make false dichotomies or put another way likes to set up eaither, or scenarios. And simple people tend to look at things in a simplistic ways. Simplistic people take the bible literally and then argue about whether or not it is right or wrong. It is a simple argument for simple people.

More sophisticated thinkers understand that things in the bible are there to teach us something. And often, the challenge of figuring out what it is trying to teach us can be just as valuable as the actual message. Often, we learn more from our journey than we learn once we arrive at our destination. But I digress.

Evolution is a fact of life. It is why complex organisms reproduce sexually as opposed to asexually. There are actually formulas and complex statistical models that demonstrate how traits are passed through a population. What we know about it is amazing. And we know this on a molecular level now that we understand DNA.

But, contrary to popular belief, there isn't very strong evidence as to how humans came to exist. There is just such a monumental chasm between humans and our closest relatives in terms of what we are that there is currently no hard science demonstrating that evolution is the only logical cause.

This, begs the question of why God couldn't have created evolution or be guiding it along with regard to humans. Really, the more you study biology and genetics, the more difficult it becomes to believe that such amazing complex systems came to be solely by chance and not by way of some divine guidance.

Then if you really want to get philosophical you can ponder the very nature of creation and a creator. After all, is not the existence of a human being not a divine truth in and of itself? Think about it.

Look around at what we have done and what we are capable of. We are capable of such amazing things, how can one not see that by our very existence, divinity exists?

But of course many people are just not philosophically inclined and would argue that we are just really smart apes and nothing spacial. in the end, I don't know if there is a creator or not. But what I do know is that if there is a creator he can create any way he choses and if he chose to create through a system of evolution, that is a perfectly acceptable possibility.

 

[fitch303]

Where we all came from is not a concern, it's where were going that I care about.

I think the idea of some random all powerful god creating us is just as valid/silly as this planet being exactly perfect just by chance.

 

[medicineman]

The Bible can be translated into many diverse messages. The "Holy Roller" types believe it is the virtual word of God, Athiests see it as a fairy tail, and many in betweens. I suppose it is all things to all people. I have had a signing which I credit to saving my brothers life. Although I don't follow Christianity to the tee, I believe there is some credence to the book. The old testament is basically a Jewish history book with many mysteries. The new testament is for Christians. If people would take the good things in the book, do unto others etc. and apply them to their lives, I'm pretty sure this would be a better world. It is pretty hard for me to believe everything in the book, talking snake, etc. but I believe a higher power definently had a hand in it's writing.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

But, contrary to popular belief, there isn't very strong evidence as to how humans came to exist. There is just such a monumental chasm between humans and our closest relatives in terms of what we are that there is currently no hard science demonstrating that evolution is the only logical cause.

Evolution, through its various mechanisms (natural selection, gene flow, mutation, etc.), is the cause of how everything living on earth has come to be, not just humans

In the simplest terms possible:

We are occupying a niche which became available to us around 6-7 million years ago when we diverged from the common ancestor we share with our closest cousin

The chasm of which you speak is in reality as little as 0.6% of genetic material (Homo sapien vs Pan paniscus)

 

[blazin256]

when you see pictures of the hubble deep field and ultra deep field, there just has to be other planets like earth. but even here on earth they're finding life exists where we thought it couldnt. like that red ooze in the north or south pole. and shit living on the ocean floors. its gatta be like in star trek, the "prime directive" not interfere with pre warp societies.

 

[da07flopro]

I could be wrong but by calling the bible a "philosophical work" it negates the actual purpose of it. It is supposed to be the word of God. The absolute word/tales of God. If you look at it as a philosophical document you are cutting out the lowest common denominator of its readers.

Basically what I am saying is that you aren't supposed to interpret the bible in YOUR(personal) own way if you believe in your faith. That is the problem, when you interpret the bible in YOUR own mind then you claim to believe in God its kind of a big slap in the face ya see, por exemplo:

Creation: God created Earth 7 days; made man basically
If you believe in this truncated version of events ^^ you are a creationist agreed, and anything else would be going against the word of God correct and you'd be an evolution(ist?) or

pro-life: No Abortions EVER
what if a girl gets raped by her father or something... problems occur if you say "well that's a permissible termination" then you are equating yourself with a prochoicer but that name bears a bad stigma for being basically baby killers.

See what I mean there is no middle ground

And what exactly are we capable of really?? Using tools? Logical thinking? advanced communication(speaking)? Humans arent able to do anything that is physically impossible(as in like the laws of physics)yet so in all actuality we have done nothing as a whole beside used tools that a very few EXCEPTIONAL humans have invented. so yea i think thats it LOL

 

[Padawanbater2]

Why do people get so hung up on this? The bible is a philosophical work. Why do people argue about whether or not it is scientifically accurate when it isn't supposed to be?

People argue that it is scientifically accurate. From Noah's Arc to David and Goliath to Adam and Eve, I've heard them all argued as literally true and scientifically accurate, by believers. A lot of people do believe the Bible is the actual true word of God, all of it.

I'll tell you why, it's because the human brain tends to make false dichotomies or put another way likes to set up eaither, or scenarios. And simple people tend to look at things in a simplistic ways. Simplistic people take the bible literally and then argue about whether or not it is right or wrong. It is a simple argument for simple people.

I totally agree. There is absolutely no way certain things in the Bible could possibly be true.

More sophisticated thinkers understand that things in the bible are there to teach us something. And often, the challenge of figuring out what it is trying to teach us can be just as valuable as the actual message. Often, we learn more from our journey than we learn once we arrive at our destination. But I digress.

The value of the message and it's pursuit are clear, but it can also lead to misinterpretation which you completely deny, in regards to Christianity.

What, in your opinion, leads fanatical Christians to commit the things they do? Think about that, obviously there is something wrong within the religion if so many of them truly believe they're doing "Gods work" or satisfying "Gods will". What would lead them to believe this? They're all just crazy?

Evolution is a fact of life. It is why complex organisms reproduce sexually as opposed to asexually. There are actually formulas and complex statistical models that demonstrate how traits are passed through a population. What we know about it is amazing. And we know this on a molecular level now that we understand DNA.

But, contrary to popular belief, there isn't very strong evidence as to how humans came to exist. There is just such a monumental chasm between humans and our closest relatives in terms of what we are that there is currently no hard science demonstrating that evolution is the only logical cause.

Rick, there is very strong evidence as to how humans came to exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution#Origin_of_life

Look at this picture. Take particular notice of all the similarities each of these skeletons share. You guys always like to talk about such amazing "chances"... How bout that chance, every single mammal classified as a "primate" has the exact same skeletal structure! The odds of that happening must be extremely high...

Evolution is such a strong body of science that at this point, it's highly unlikely that anything will come along and replace it or change what we know in a dramatic way. We pretty much know how it all happened, some of us just choose not to believe it.

This, begs the question of why God couldn't have created evolution or be guiding it along with regard to humans. Really, the more you study biology and genetics, the more difficult it becomes to believe that such amazing complex systems came to be solely by chance and not by way of some divine guidance.

The more I study biology the more I believe the complete opposite. The more you realize "chance" as you understand it to be has nothing at all to do with the way organisms evolve. Natural selection, is not the only mechanism involved in the theory.

Then if you really want to get philosophical you can ponder the very nature of creation and a creator. After all, is not the existence of a human being not a divine truth in and of itself? Think about it.

Not at all. Our existence doesn't mean we were created. Whose to say we are "creations" in the first place? I'd argue we would be more accurately labeled "organisms".

Look around at what we have done and what we are capable of. We are capable of such amazing things, how can one not see that by our very existence, divinity exists?

Maybe if every single human being was happy, healthy, cared for, loved, and fed, your argument would make more sense.

But of course many people are just not philosophically inclined and would argue that we are just really smart apes and nothing spacial. in the end, I don't know if there is a creator or not. But what I do know is that if there is a creator he can create any way he choses and if he chose to create through a system of evolution, that is a perfectly acceptable possibility.

I agree, there's just no evidence to support that idea. He either did that and doesn't want us to know or didn't because he doesn't exist.

 

[dukeofbaja]

I love the whole 'by chance' line of thought. I sympathize with it. I am in some ways a determinist due to this line of argument.

But in regards to evolution, you can look at 'chance' in two very different ways.

One way is to see our complexity as a 1 in a billion cajillion sort of thing. As in, number 1830573930747490303273290203937 is the winner of the life lottery and humans won it.

The better way to see it is the cumulative way. First, some organism won the 1 through 10 lottery and got assigned 1. It eventually underwent some number of random genetic mutations and 1.8 won the lottery and got assigned 18. Then 18 underwent some number of random genetic mutations and 18.3 won the lottery and got assigned 183. Then 183 underwent some number of random gentic mutations and and version 183.0 and was assigned 1830. So on and so forth until we get to version 1830573930747490303273290203937, humans.

Not a single day goes by where I do not ponder in amazement the miracle that happens every second of my life: I think, I percieve, I will. Yet, when I think about it deeply, really stoned and reflecting on my higher education, I see it all very clearly as the product of cumulative chance. Everything just doing what it needs to do to survive, by genetics.

The pollen rides the wind. The crocodile carries its newly hatched young in its mouth to the water. We wear fancy clothes and use antibacterial soap and drive big cars and go to hospitals to give birth.

We humans want to think we are this great creature, but we are not. We are just asshole apes that wear clothes and eat nicer foods.

 

[RickWhite]

I should have expected that just as soon as I posted the thread, the same old argument would ensue.

First, I should mention that I majored in molecular biology - biology with specific emphasis on DNA. So, it is probably safe to say that I know as much if not more than most about evolution. I'm not saying evolution doesn't occur - I already made this clear. What I am saying is that the theory becomes less clear when we start looking at the ability to build ships capable of leaving our planet.

But that isn't even the point. I understand that some people take the bible literally. First, one would need to be fluent in Hebrew since the meaning of many things radically changes in most translations. For instance, the Hebrew "yom" doesn't latterly translates into "days." It is less specific and can mean a period of time of any length. But that too is beside the point. People have all kinds of silly beliefs and taking everything in the Bible literally is just one of them. the sad part is that when people do this they usually miss the point entirely. For example, the story of Adam and Eve is a story about human nature and our ability to be righteous or to succumb to temptation. The snake represents temptation and evil.

Back to evolution. Assuming man did evolve through evolution, that says nothing about whether or not there is a creator that planned it that way. And also, it is a mistake to assume that any religious text needs to be correct in order for there to be a creator. Maybe there is a creator that designed evolution and all of our texts have it all wrong. Things are seldom one or the other.

 

[Prot3us1`]

Rick, you keep posting the same shit mate, you will keep getting the same old argument.

 

[Padawanbater2]

There is zero evidence to support the idea of a divine creation. There are over 135,000 full text journal articles on PubMed alone only about evolution.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/gquery?term=evolution

The stuff you consider "proof" of creation, isn't. Your main argument is "maybe God designed evolution too, who knows? Since nobody knows, it's a valid possibility" - which I would agree with, but it's too simplistic. It doesn't actually tell us anything. "Maybe Thomas the Train God designed evolution, who knows?" - what makes your God argument any more valid than my Thomas the Train argument? There is absolutely no proof or evidence to support either, right? What if a couple thousand years ago people wrote a book about Thomas the Train God, and its existed ever since and billions of people believe in it? ... you see where I'm going with this. That is the crux of your argument, using the same logic, anything might have created us and the universe and the laws of physics and everything else, so until there is evidence to support the claim, it will remain just an untestable idea. Existing isn't proof of anything.

You said you "majored in molecular biology" - so what does that mean? How many classes did you take and pass toward that degree? Did you get a degree in molecular biology? What university was this at and what year?

 

[RickWhite]

Padawan, you want my name and address too?

I recognize that the existence of God is not something that can be proved. And I understand a great deal about evolution and don't deny it's legitimacy in the slightest. I don't know why you are trying to prove something that I am not denying. But, what you need to realize is that while there is a huge body of science showing how organisms evolve, it does become quite scant when we start talking about the gigantic leap from animals to humans.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about. On one hand we have Coco the Chimp and on the other, this guy. If the only thing that caused this monumental leap was a mutation of a smart gene, that was one hell of a mutation. And in my experience, chicks aren't usually attracted to the smartest guy in the room, nor are guys attracted to the smartest girl.

Anyway, do you believe evolution explains this? I have my doubts.

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (German: [ˈvɔlfɡaŋ amaˈdeus ˈmoːtsart], full baptismal name Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart[1] (27 January 1756 – 5 December 1791), was a prolific and influential composer of the Classical era.

He composed over 600 works,

many acknowledged as pinnacles of symphonic, concertante, chamber, piano, operatic, and choral music. He is among the most enduringly popular of classical composers.

Mozart showed prodigious ability from his earliest childhood in Salzburg.

Already competent on keyboard and violin, he composed from the age of five and performed before European royalty.

 

[robert 14617]

i ask why are there still selocanth ,the billion year old fish , the answer is they are content with there environment , granted so apes confined to 4x4 concrete and steel cages for the past several ,generations were content?

 

[RickWhite]

How come there aren't any other intelligent species? How come there is absolutely nothing in between humans and apes?

To be fair, Darwin did actually claim that Blacks were between Whites and Apes on the evolutionary ladder. Yep, they leave that part out when discussing evolution.

 

[robert 14617]

rick white , i have to stop you there i'm so white i'm nearly transparent and there are many scholars that i have more respect for that are so black they are almost blue , pigmentation of our skin has no bearing on knowledge

 

[abe23]

Sure it does! Mozart is certainly divine....but not in that way. With more and more humans populating the earth you would have exponentially more diversification of genes and potential for new mutations. Think of cannabis. Before you had breeders seeking out genetics and propagating there was little chance of an afghani pollinating a thai or columbian sativa. With more plants being grown, more new varieties and exceptional individuals appear.

Maybe you're looking at it backwards. What baffles me much more is where life comes from to begin with and science really falls short in explaining that. Researchers just discovered primitive lifeforms in the ocean trenches where there's no oxygen or light. So did life maybe come from an asteroid that landed in the ocean or something along those lines? There's no way of knowing any of the stuff for certain and debate is sort of pointless is some ways. But to think that religion, which is a man-made cultural phenomenon, would have any answers to the origins of life and of the cosmos doesn't seem very logical to me...

 

[robert 14617]

AQBE23, expand your point to hi bread growth in plants , it makes perfect sense, we as a species would excel in the same fashion...rob

 

[ginjawarrior]

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (German: [ˈvɔlfɡaŋ amaˈdeus ˈmoːtsart], full baptismal name Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart[1] (27 January 1756 – 5 December 1791), was a prolific and influential composer of the Classical era.

He composed over 600 works,

many acknowledged as pinnacles of symphonic, concertante, chamber, piano, operatic, and choral music. He is among the most enduringly popular of classical composers.

Mozart showed prodigious ability from his earliest childhood in Salzburg.

Already competent on keyboard and violin, he composed from the age of five and performed before European royalty.

ahh the days before sesame street, tellytubbies and pokemon

 

[Prot3us1`]

How come there aren't any other intelligent species? How come there is absolutely nothing in between humans and apes?

To be fair, Darwin did actually claim that Blacks were between Whites and Apes on the evolutionary ladder. Yep, they leave that part out when discussing evolution.

You think we are the most intelligent due to our tools, the fact we are way overpopulating this planet and we can destroy things to make other things.

Animals are smarter than us.

We can build houses. So do beavers..bears go into caves, lizards go under rocks...its all shelter..we just had to cut down 50 trees, process them, mine iron ore, process that and so on and so forth, to do the same thing a lizard did in 3 seconds.

We can generate light. So do fireflies.
We generate electricity. So does the football fish, and the electric eel...only they have organs that do it..they eat food and make power..we need to kill the planet for ours.

If the axolotl could talk he would say hes the smartest...he can regenerate any part of his body including organ tissue. (even brain!)
The cockroach has a redundant brain...2 brains are better than one..we say so ourselves.
If the bats could talk they would say they are better, we need the suns electromagnetic radiation to see...when the suns not there we cant see anything...bats make their own in the form of sound waves.
If the chameleon could talk he would brag that we WISH we had technology as good as his natural ability to change his pattern and color. So would squid and the many other ocean animals with this ability.
The bear would say if humans didnt have billions they would rip us limb from limb, and be dominant.

We do beat one type of organism though...virii.

Virii will take what they need at any cost to the host. We are the virii the planet is our host.

I could go on about the shark not needing to change as its already perfect, and how he would say if we were so awesome we wouldnt still be evolving.

Also, in regard to monkeys and humans being not related...read this article...turns out when we developed our speech (one of the things we are so proud of) we lost other abilities.

So really Rick..the only reason "we" are the only "intelligent" species is because we are so full of ourselves we refuse to acknowledge that just because they do things DIFFERENTLY it doesnt mean animals arent JUST.AS.SMART.

I think they are smarter..i mean you dont see them killing themselves from stress...stress over money...an item the themselves invented...you dont see them killing each other over differing views...locking each other up for eating seeds that make them happy or shit like that. For all of our intelligence mate I blame people like YOU Rick, for the way we are...human beings are fucking pathetic. We are going to be the end of this planets life supporting abilities (not forever, but for a time) and we dont even have the decency to stop...

Sleepy lizards mate for life..if a car hits a mated lizard, his or her partner will sit right next to the dead body until they die from hunger or get hit too...look at the COMPASSION there...they will kill themselves rather than live without their partner...we will kill every other species on our planet, so we can have more money, to create more stress..to kill ourselves...sweet.

Heres the link to the article explaining how theres PROOF we gave up photographic memory (ish) for the ability to have in depth conversations. If it wasnt for this ONE ability, we would be living the same as all the other animals...

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12993-chimps-outperform-humans-at-memory-task.html

I have heaps more but this is the second time i had to type this, the first i hit backspace not realizing the page was highlighted... (browser "back" shortcut) .

You are actually correct about dark skinned people being said to be between evolutionary steps...but i think this more to be a case of chimps having black skin, and us having white....my cat has black nose and paw pads, and skin under her fur...my in laws have a cat with pink skin...what does that mean then? (i know you werent claiming this as your own fact..just an interesting question!) (EDIT: Im indicating color diversity in other species, not trying to say black people are apes!!!)

 

[Near]

Really, the more you study biology and genetics, the more difficult it becomes to believe that such amazing complex systems came to be solely by chance and not by way of some divine guidance.

A very basic misunderstanding of evolution which occurs often. No one says that it was a matter of chance.