More backround on Louis: he and his 2 brothers live with his aunt and don't pay rent (they live in what was a 2 car garage that they added on to and turned into a little guest house type of deal on his aunts property)... Also, whenever they need to buy a vehicle or do anything that requires paperwork or id's, their aunt gets it for them since she is legal. His aunt has been here legally for a long time. When Louis was a kid, his parents got him and his brothers accross the border to their aunt and they stayed behind in Mexico with the rest of his brothers and sisters. Him and his brothers send half of the money they make back to their family.
He works full time both jobs.
I honestly couldn't tell you exactly what he spends, he sells a lot of cocaine on the side too, so for all i know he could be putting 30k a year back in the economy and sending a lot more back to Mexico.
Aside from being a coke dealer (I am no angel but coke can fuck people up so I am leery of it), have they been good neighbors (dealing doesn't have to mean they are bad people right)?
Taking out all the notions you have about immigration status.
With AZ's housing issues, would you rather see them get the boot (tossed into a local pen (heard some AZ with a tent jail talking about tossing them in there for a few months this morning, which is money that tax payers are going to have to spend), taking out that 30k from the economy, forcing his aunt to no longer be able to pay her mortgage (assuming it is not paid off since that would raise a lot of red flags legally if it were) or car notes and those get taken away, losing her home, possibly facing jail time for harboring illegal immigrants/ coke dealers, and leaving another home in foreclosure in your neighborhood?
Or would you rather figure out a better way than saying we don't want you because you did not want to wait the years it can take to move here and make a better life for yourself and your family, breaking the economy while doing so?
I am not one to cut off my nose to spite my face.
Is there a reason that is not "Because they are here illegally" that you wouldn't rather have everyone here being productive to become a citizen?
Yeah, but at the same time.. Those businesses are keeping prices artifically low because they are cheating the system and hiring illegal immigrants. So basically, the companies that were afraid of perfect competition from other businesses took the easy way out by hiring illegals. So what happened to the businesses that decided to try to play by the rules? A lot of them are already gone or turned to hiring illegals so that they could compete. I won't be crying over businesses that go under because they broke the rules in the first place by hiring illegal immigrants and now that they will have to pay more for labor and raise their prices; the party is over for them. The prices aren't supposed to be controlled by the companies, they are supposed to be controlled by the market and demand. The companies that do illegal things to lower their prices and put other companies out of business would become the only game in town because they are taking on more jobs at lower margins. If nobody elsed hired illegals and that company was the only one around flooded with work, they would simply raise their prices again to the point where they are still kept busy 100% of the time and there is no excess demand for their services at that price. It's really a two way street and a balancing act, the longer that companies are able to hire illegals and drive prices down, the worse the rebound effect will be when something is actually done about it. Also, I'm not exactly how far prices have been driven down because time value has a large effect. It depends on the industry i suppose. It would also depend on whether the companies in that industry are hiring illegals to compete with lower prices or whether they are hiring illegals to save money on labor while charging the same prices and just making more profit.
I agree, and also do not feel bad for businesses that go under due to any reasons that are their own.
But I think you go to far with saying they are afraid of perfect competition, because they are the ones that figured out a way (illegally in this case right) to use their available resources (people there in the community) to keep prices as low as possible. Suppliers always set the prices of goods, it is just the consumers that decide if it is worth them purchasing it at those prices or not.
And the competition drove down prices and customers were the ones that made out like bandits. The businesses did well too, but none of this compares with how well the people purchasing these deflated services have done.
The real point I am making that this bill is short sighted, there doesn't have to be a rebound effect in the way this will turn out to be if they just boot everyone. If you made these people legal, force businesses to comply to the laws, but at the same time cut payroll taxes/insurance costs for workers under $25kish so that businesses could start to want to make them legal, and then put on heavy fines for people that still don't comply.
Edit: Or just make it so that American citizens can compete with them by cutting out all the business expenses for low income citizens that fill out say a waiver form with the state/fed.
They/We need to figure out a way to entice good behavior and not just step on peoples throats for what some have deemed 'bad behavior'. And do things smarter.
The companies rely on them and we rely on the companies that end up hiring them to make more money. In the short run, these companies make more profit. In the long run, they end up back at square one because there is going to be more that one company willing to risk hiring illegals to stay alive and they will be competing with other companies willing to do the same. Companies with only legal employees could compete the same way if they all shared the same higher cost of production. When you talk demand you have to realize that price doesn't shift demand, it only changes the quantity demanded. The demand for the services is still going to be there, but not everyone in town will be able to have their house painted for 20 bucks anymore so a lot of them will decide not to have it done.
I just wanted to mention, by other companies I mean suppliers of the product used in construction (like paint supplies, building materials ect.) and those places tend to use payroll companies and everyone has to have documents and pay taxes. Those are the ones that are screwed if this happens. The completely legal entities that rely on the legal contractors (who hire illegal workers) business to survive. And then the mall areas they rent that rely on their lease payments, and ... blah blah you get what I mean.
For some people, it's about whether they are here or not and to others, it's about where they are here or not legally. I'm the latter. I don't care who is in this country, everyone has a right to be here and that's what it's founded upon. But like CrackerJax said, it's whether they come in through the front door or whether they sneak in through the back and begin to destroy the very reason they came here for. They end up destroying the benefit and tax system that a lot of us work hard and by the rules to support. The benefit system works in a cyclical nature and money is payed out that is ideally replenished. Buckets with holes don't hold water even if you keep pouring it in.
Agreed, but the front door sucks and is too small forcing most of the people to never have a chance to get into the country legally. And if economics and history show us anything, if there is a demand for something, people will do what it takes to get it.
Anyway good talk too man, look forward to more in the future.
