Creation Vs Evolution

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Since you won't respond to specifics and hold a conversations like a normal adult, I'm done with you here. Why the fuck did I spend the time answering your questions when you won't even respond in kind. Quit acting like such a tool. I'm glad my students aren't stupid enough to make these wild accusations without evidence. I demonstrated how we were fit for our specific environment, yet you continue to make claims about us being unfit even though physical strength, speed, etc. are not the only measures. You continue to imply we had no intelligence when we came down from the trees, yet our modern cousins prove to be quite intelligent. Yes, evolution is the answer and explains everything unless there is new evidence to prove otherwise. That's how modern science works. Gravitation explains the motions of all heavenly bodies and we don't go looking for angels pushing asteroids out of the belt to explain why some leave their orbit. We look again to see how to explain it within the context of the solid theory that we have (Jupiter's gravity affects them in small increments over time).

You continue to pronounce your conjecture that humans are somehow unfit in natural environments as a fact without a shred of evidence. You think that's science?

Rick here demonstrates that you can get decent grades in some science classes but still cannot always be taught how to think like a scientist and can be heavily biased by his own personal spiritual beliefs.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
So, in other words, neither of you have any explanation at all.

The fact is, humans did evolve but we evolved backward. If we did originate from Africa a tiny measure of intelligence wouldn't help. In fact, it is hard to even imagine a scenario in which a minute measure of intelligence is going to ensure reproductive success. Sure, if we assume that there was some monumental leap in intelligence, that would be helpfully. But, the entire theory is based on small incremental changes. So, it is unreasonable to assume that an extra .0001% of an IQ point is going to help a physically less competent animal.

Now it may be the case that situations arose that provided the perfect amount of intellectual challenge so that the Hominid with the .0001% increased intelligence was more successful. But that would have to be one hell of a magic bullet event. Odds are, the entire population would perish or the strongest, fastest, best swimmer or climber would still come out on top.

But see, this again is where I take issue with you evolution extrapolators. You assume evolution explains everything without question. Then, you invent a "maybe" scenario that answers every question and call it science. And few if any are ever falsifiable or testable in any way. Have either of you ever taken an anthropology course? It is all untested conjecture or "pure bullshit" as I like to call it. Paleontology and anthropology are not science, they are assumption. I have been on tours of ancient ruins and heard these fools try to explain how they knew what they did about a given people and the only thing that was clear to me was that they had no fucking idea what they were talking about.

Now, I have no problem with the assumption that humans did evolve and continue to do so in small ways. What I have a problem with is that there is not a single good explanation as to how evolution created a species that is unfit for any natural environment. Everything about the existence of humans runs contrary to everything postulated by evolution. If you want to demonstrate that humans evolved without some type of "leg up" you need to show how small incremental increases in intelligence (and not giant leaps) made us more successful.

I t i s n o t a "g i a n t" "l e a p" o m f g w o w ! ! !
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
I t i s n o t a "g i a n t" "l e a p" o m f g w o w ! ! !
Paddy, do you think he even gave any of our posts more than a few seconds of thought? He keeps responding with the same shit and not once attempts to discuss the individual points either of us made. Don't you just love these creationists that have a little bit of science under their belt?
I'd love to share his responses with some of my colleagues in anthropology, too bad this is a weed website. :)
 

undertheice

Well-Known Member
Not one response comes close to answering a single question I asked.
all you've got here is a slightly more literate version of haze's anti-atheist rant in the spirituality forum. you are making the same demands as he is and there is no logical reason to expect a pat answer. is that what you're looking for, an answer? if that's it, you'll never get it. science is about the questions asked, not necessarily about the answers. there are valid theories that are unprovable. there are nut case ideas that are unprovable. there are lots of ifs, but they are only clues to a truth we will never know. we can set up probable time lines and reinforce them with present day examples, but to say they are truth would require a leap of faith that is usually reserved for the religious.

supposing that god created evolution makes as much sense as taking the bible literally. in short, none.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Paddy, do you think he even gave any of our posts more than a few seconds of thought? He keeps responding with the same shit and not once attempts to discuss the individual points either of us made. Don't you just love these creationists that have a little bit of science under their belt?
I'd love to share his responses with some of my colleagues in anthropology, too bad this is a weed website. :)

The things he's responding with just keep ringing the creationist alarm. I've been in this game for a little over 4 years, discussing things with creationists about evolution and the reasons they don't accept it, and with Rick, it's the same old thing, he even brought up the "Atheist/Hitler" argument before, which is the holy grail of arguments for creationists, no credible scientist (or anyone who studies real science for that matter) would make that analogy as they know it has nothing at all to do with evolution, or the validity of the theory. Same thing with "Darwin was a racist!" (which Rick also used...).

But I'm with you in that I wish he'd actually respond - point by point, like you and I do with his posts. I think he doesn't do that because he doesn't want to give away any more information about his actual position - we do keep saying he's coming off as a creationist without even realizing it..
 

Xrtnfx

Active Member
Good job repeating what you said earlier!
Perhaps you should listen to it then... Anyone who doesn't understand evolution to your extent did not do well Bio 1, as it takes up 1/3 of the course. It doesn't matter if you believe in it or not, at least you could understand it first..

"Don't you just love these creationists that have a little bit of science under their belt?
I'd love to share his responses with some of my colleagues in anthropology, too bad this is a weed website."

I am sorry there is no way he has a bio degree. internet lies!
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
The fact is, humans did evolve but we evolved backward. If we did originate from Africa a tiny measure of intelligence wouldn't help. In fact, it is hard to even imagine a scenario in which a minute measure of intelligence is going to ensure reproductive success.


...

Now, I have no problem with the assumption that humans did evolve and continue to do so in small ways. What I have a problem with is that there is not a single good explanation as to how evolution created a species that is unfit for any natural environment. Everything about the existence of humans runs contrary to everything postulated by evolution. If you want to demonstrate that humans evolved without some type of "leg up" you need to show how small incremental increases in intelligence (and not giant leaps) made us more successful.
Something like being able to see color would allow a better chance to see the predators in the jungle would help out tremendously and improve your chances to mate. Also little increases in hand eye coordination would allow for throwing rocks better which would help hunting, especially when spears would have been developed.



I am a big fan of the gene mutation theory that disconnected our jaws from our skulls and shrinking our jaw muscles forcing us to find ways to eat things that would not be as tough (which fire use would greatly improve the toughness of meat), and allowing for a far larger brain.

This may also help to explain why there seems to have been several different types of humanoids because the mutation was causing different effects on different families over generations. And over time different families broke off at different times and they became different species as they completed the evolutionary changes.

Here is some links to scientific papers on it if you don't want to just get the 'guess' that I am putting out there.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WJS-4J0XG0X-1&_user=10&_coverDate=02/28/2006&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1319556965&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=9040062e943ae838653c02a991f38264

Well that will do, you have google.
The fact is, humans did evolve but we evolved backward.
Wouldn't that be something similar to mating with a down syndrome person? I mean I know that may sound harsh, but to have that kind of backwards evolution, people would have to get a mutation of say connected jaw bone and have such a high mating rate, and their kids with it would then do well mating until a ape was born? That doesn't seem logical at all.

Would that mean that there would only be one plant too and that all was reverse engineered until we had everything we have now?
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
There's no such thing as backwards evolution or devolution. 99.9% of all species that ever lived have gone extinct. That means that they could not adapt but that doesn't mean they weren't successful during their reign. To make the claim that early humans were weak and/or unfit for their environment without investigating and specifying what their environment was like is just plain ignorance. I tried to explain to him how walking upright and losing our body hair for sweat glands was extremely beneficial for long distance running, i.e. chasing large, injured prey for many miles wearing it out until they can catch it. It also was very helpful for long-distance migration across the African plains. He ignores the social, altruistic society that ape ancestors and proto-humans had that was crucial to our survival. He is so focused on intelligence he ignores all of our other adaptations that helped us survive and flourish.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
Since you won't respond to specifics and hold a conversations like a normal adult, I'm done with you here. Why the fuck did I spend the time answering your questions when you won't even respond in kind. Quit acting like such a tool. I'm glad my students aren't stupid enough to make these wild accusations without evidence. I demonstrated how we were fit for our specific environment, yet you continue to make claims about us being unfit even though physical strength, speed, etc. are not the only measures. You continue to imply we had no intelligence when we came down from the trees, yet our modern cousins prove to be quite intelligent. Yes, evolution is the answer and explains everything unless there is new evidence to prove otherwise. That's how modern science works. Gravitation explains the motions of all heavenly bodies and we don't go looking for angels pushing asteroids out of the belt to explain why some leave their orbit. We look again to see how to explain it within the context of the solid theory that we have (Jupiter's gravity affects them in small increments over time).

You continue to pronounce your conjecture that humans are somehow unfit in natural environments as a fact without a shred of evidence. You think that's science?

Just how fucking stupid are you? Go try to steal a fish from a grizzly bear and see how fit you are.

Rick here demonstrates that you can get decent grades in some science classes but still cannot always be taught how to think like a scientist and can be heavily biased by his own personal spiritual beliefs.
you are describing your self. It is you who has failed to answer any questions. You have also failed to ask any valid questions. The only question you asked is if I can disprove evolution. I answered that question fully when I explained that I do not dispute that evolution occurs and merely QUESTION why human evolution seems to run contrary to most principles of evolution. And just so you know, real scientists question accepted theories - that is what science is all about. Evidently, you were absent that day.

Again, since I know you have some comprehension problems; I do not dispute that evolution takes place. I merely suggested that this does not PROVE that there is not a creator because evolution could simply be part of the plan. And I never said I had proof of this. i never even said I believed it. I simply suggested that evolution and creation are not necessarily polar opposites. Go back and read my OP real slow being careful to sound out all the words and maybe you will catch what you missed the first time. If you still miss it, find a 10 year old to explain it to you.

If anything has been proven here it is that we need to raise the bar when it comes to who we allow to become teachers. You obviously have woefully inadequate reading comprehension and an inability to use logic. You are a religious zealot who prays at the alter of science and nothing more.

And by the way, what exactly is your background?
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
I don't know why I bother to respond to you. First off, I'm not making any absolute statements of facts. I have already said that much of what we know about our early ancestors is still open to interpretation. Second, you are fucking stupid if you think that direct conflict is the only way to survive. Do you really think our ancestors tried to steal food from a grizzly, or in their case, a cave bear? Any biologist that studies nature sees a variety of techniques that species use to survive.

I will leave it up to the other forum members to determine who has the reading comprehension problem. I asked many more than one question, and I didn't even ask what you claim I did. I never once suggested evolution proves there is no creator. I tried to be nice but now you're babbling. I can PROVE what we said by quoting posts but you would just ignore that too.

Whether you like it or not, you ARE disputing evolution takes place because you are hypothesizing that a creator intervened somewhere along the human lineage. Please, tell me exactly how it would work that a deity that favors a future human creation but already set evolution in progress makes sure humans develop WITHOUT denying naturalistic evolution. They are mutually exclusive, exactly the opposite of what you claim.

Yes, chasing large prey long distances after a small tribe of hunters wound it. Yes, intelligence helps us become social, but I already said that. But intelligence is overrated. Microorganisms have been extremely successful. Walking upright allows us to use our hands to wield tools and weapons. We are certainly no sprinters but are some of the best long distance runners in the animal kingdom. It also allowed us to move long distances carrying things. But enough with your straw man arguments.

We can never know for certain how early proto humans behaved. Unlike stone and bone, culture doesn't fossilize. However we can make educated guesses. I think you have a problem with these guesses because for some reason, you think scientists are claiming these things as fact. Not true. You need to read the literature to determine how much evidence we have to support each hypothesis. Not all is equal.
[youtube]ICNaSah5bAs[/youtube]

Why do you care what my background is?
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Interesting essay. Maybe Rick could have found this if he was actually interested in doing some research. Notice the use of the words 'speculation' and 'some dispute' and how he compares those ideas to the things that we tend to accept because we have more evidence. It's too bad that Rick's science training never taught him that no idea in science is absolute and we deal only in levels of confidence.

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Today we celebrate Charles Darwin's birthday.

by Glenn Scriven

His profound insights into the origin of animals and plants revolutionized biology.
My talk today, in his honour, is to speculate as to the possible reasons why the human brain evolved to its present form.

[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]The development of the human brain is likely the most amazing event in the history of evolution. In a mere 2 million years we evolved from bipedal Chimpanzees to modern humans. Genetically we share 98% of our genes with our cousins, the apes. So, why did this brain expansion happen to us and not our cousins? Why have modern apes remained essentially unchanged during the entire evolution of humans? Their bodies are much the same as fossil apes and their brains are little changed. Although man's brain has evolved, he has yet to produce an actual theory about human brain evolution, but there are many interesting speculations out there that we'll discuss today.

First, let's review the evolution of man, Homo sapiens. Homo meaning man, and sapiens meaning wise. Monkeys, apes, and humans are all in the order primates. Monkeys include all long-tailed primates such as baboons and tamarins. Apes include all tailless primates such as chimpanzees and gorillas. Humans evolved from this ape line and both humans and apes today are in the family called Hominidae.

Ten to twenty million years ago, during the Miocene geological epoch-before man and before pre-humans-the African rain forest provided ape species with a steady, relatively abundant supply of food. Foraging over a limited area, primarily for fruit and nutritious leaves, was sufficient to support groups of apes. The rain forest was relatively safe from large predators that roamed the nearby grasslands, except maybe for an occasional leopard.

Rain forest apes appear to have evolved little over millions of years. They were not threatened. They had food. There was no need for change. But about 9 million years ago the ape line changed. The gorilla line separated from the other Hominidae and then about 6 million years ago the chimpanzee line separated from the pre-human line.

Here's what happened. In the late Miocene epoch, the African climate became more arid and more variable; grassy woodlands expanded and the rain forest habitat the apes were accustomed to became more restricted. Some apes began to forage out into these expanding arid woodlands.

Fossil evidence suggests that early bipedal hominids, apes that walked upright on two feet, may have evolved in this new arid woodland environment. As these hominids spent more time foraging in the woodlands, natural selection would have then favored apes that could walk and run over larger areas. The rain forest apes were better adapted to climbing trees, but the foot bones, leg bones, and joints of these arid woodlands apes evolved and became better adapted for walking and running than those of the rain forest hominids.

The human foot, besides our brain, is one of the most evolved features humans have over apes. As these pre-humans became more terrestrial, or more land-dwelling as opposed to tree-dwelling, their arms and hands also became better adapted for carrying food, using tools, and eventually developing weapons. Perhaps this was the spark that ignited the evolution of the brain.

So, our ape ancestors existed in African rain forests for millions of years and then, over a relatively short period of time, some of these apes diverged into land-dwelling pre-humans that walked upright as we do. These bipedal hominid pre-humans were in the Genus Australopithecus. Richard Leaky's famous "Lucy" was among these. Then the Genus Homo evolved about 2.5 million years ago.
The main reason this new Genus name was given was because of the pre-humans use of stone tools and it is here that the Stone Age begins as does advancement in brain size that we'll talk about in just a minute. Now, earlier pre-humans probably also used tools, most likely made from bone and wood, but stone tools gave Homo habilis, the first Homo pre-human, the edge it needed to prosper in hostile environments previously too formidable for primates. H. habilis is thought to have utilized simple stone flakes as tools. Though these stone flakes were primitive by modern standards, they were more advanced than any tools that had previously existed.
Now, it actually remains quite controversial whether H. habilis was actually the first hominid to master stone-tool technology. The recent discovery of Australopithecus garhi dating 2.6 million years ago was found along with stone-tool implements that were 100,000 to 200,000 years older than H. habilis. So, the start of the Stone Age is a bit debatable.

In terms of social status, most experts agree that the intelligence of H. habilis was more sophisticated than typical Australopithecines or chimpanzees. Yet despite H. habilis's tool usage, they were not the master hunters that their descendants proved to be. H. habilis used tools primarily for scavenging, such as cleaving meat off of carrion, rather than for defense or hunting. There is ample fossil evidence that shows H. habilis was a major staple in the diet of large predatory animals such as Dinofelis, a large predatory cat similar to a leopard. Homo habilis co-existed with many other Homo-like bipedal primates, such as Paranthropus boisei, which was also highly successful-some prospering for many millennia. However, H. habilis, possibly because of its early tool innovation and a less specialized diet, became the precursor of an entire line of new species; whereas Paranthropus boisei and its robust relatives disappeared from the later fossil record.

Homo erectus evolved after H. habilis, about 1.8 million years ago, and used more diverse and sophisticated tools than its predecessors. One theory is that H. erectus first used stone chips of the habilis type and then later developed stone tools flaked on both sides. The double-sided stone tools were used as hand axes from about 1.2 million years ago to about 500,000 years ago. The primary innovation associated with these handaxes is that the stone was chipped on both sides to form two cutting edges. Homo erectus (along with Homo ergaster) was probably the first early human to fit squarely into the category of a hunter and predator and not as prey for larger animals. H. erectus migrated throughout the Great Rift Valley, even up to the Red Sea. This pre-human was learning to master his environment for the first time.

Some dispute that H. erectus was able to control fire. The earliest and least disputed evidence of controlled fire is around 300,000 years old, right at the end of the H. erectus period, and comes from a site which lies on an ancient beach on the French Riviera. There are older Homo erectus sites in France, China, and other areas that seem to indicate controlled use of fire, some dating back 500,000 to 1.5 million years ago. Regardless, it can at least be surmised that the controlled use of fire was not typical of Homo erectus until its decline and the rise of more advanced species of the Homo genus came to the forefront such as, Homo antecessor, H. heidelbergensis and H. neanderthalensis.

Between 400,000 to 250,000 years ago, the trend in cranial expansion and the elaboration of stone tool technologies developed, providing evidence for a transition from H. erectus to H. sapiens, from pre-human to human. The direct evidence suggests that there was a migration of H. erectus out of Africa, then a further speciation of H. sapiens from H. erectus in Africa. This is a hotly debated area in paleoanthropology, but nonetheless, man evolved in Africa.

Numerous scientists and philosophers have speculated about what caused the ultimate development of the modern human with our large brain. Darwin, of course, considered most evolution to be by natural selection which encouraged survival of the fittest. Being fit meant being better able to find food and reproduce the species. It has been shown that a mere 1% difference in reproductive success could result in replacement of one species with another in 30 generations.

Most of the following speculations fall into this 'survival of the fittest" category. Perhaps just one aspect triggered the evolution of our brain or maybe it was a combination of factors. First, primitive pre-humans that successfully made the transition from the rain forest to the savanna grasslands had a brain one-third the size of ours. The various species at this time did not have significant brain growth compared to their rain forest predecessors. As pre-humans expanded into new territories, this demanded adapting to different food supplies and developing new strategies for getting food. A more nomadic life required improved memory of food locations and also identification of food plants and poisonous plants. This information needed to be passed down from generation to generation. Obviously, the ability to expand the food supply would improve the survival ability of the group and consequently result in greater reproduction. Transmitting information from one generation to the next would become of increasing importance. Still, the fact is that pre-humans, with a brain one-third the size of ours, were successful in Africa for thousands of years and their brains evolved little.
What happened next? The Homo group possessed somewhat larger brains than earlier Hominids. The first clear increase in hominid brain size from 400 ml to 700ml occurred about 2 million years ago in H. habilis, the pre-humans that used stone tools. This evolutionarily significant change in brain size cannot be simply accounted for in terms of increased body size alone. Some evidence suggests that these larger brained Homo habilis fed on highly nutritious seafood and fresh-water fishes.

Scientists solved this puzzle of the big brain change by putting together pieces that, at first, looked as if they had no relation. The first piece of the puzzle involved discovering early pre-human populations that demonstrated greater intelligence. They found evidence in the East African Rift Valley and on the southern Cape of South Africa. The second piece of the puzzle was the discovery that docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) was a large contributor to brain growth. The third piece was the discovery that DHA was found in seafood. When scientists put these three pieces together they found that pre-humans who lived near water sources and ate seafood experienced the big brain change! Stone Age men and women collecting shellfish could have easily provided themselves with a plentiful source of brain-specific nutrition, especially omega-3 fatty acids, and their children would have naturally participated in the exploitation of this extremely rich resource of nutrition. There must have been enough omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids available in their diet to provide many generations with fuel for fetal/infant development as well as childhood and adult needs for the cardiovascular system and the brain.

In contrast, the inland Australopithecines did not have access to omega-3 fatty acids and for three million years got stuck at a brain capacity that was not much bigger than a chimpanzee's. They don't show much evidence of advanced tools either. I really see this seafood connection as a major player in what got the brain evolving. But then what happens next in the brain's development? Well, pre-humans most likely lived in groups. The availability of food and the nomadic life would have likely determined the size of the group. If the group was small, it could be family-based with possibly a dozen individuals. Multiple family groups would likely become tribal and have a leader. Most modern apes live in a tribal-like group with a leader. It is likely that most pre-humans lived in similar tribal-like groups.

Remember that the essence of Darwinian evolution is competition or "survival of the fittest". So, what would be some of the elements of competition in a tribal-like group that would improve the survival of pre-humans? Good. Food would be the primary concern of pre-humans, as it is for all animals. Protection against predators is also extremely important, particularly in Africa with its abundance of large predators. Shelter is important, particularly for the female and her babies. And, of course, mating and reproduction are critical for the species to survive and carry on genes that enhance its survival. Certainly, all of these elements are important for pre-humans, but do they contribute to expanding brain size? Let us imagine a primitive tribal situation with Homo erectus, our first human-like ancestor. Language did not exist. Tools were very primitive. Campfires had not been developed, but possibly were later during the time of H. erectus. Provisioning the tribe was critical. And the men probably scavenged for meat, while the women may have collected edible plants and roots.

As the group became larger, it became necessary for some kind of organization to develop. As with other apes, early human males began to compete to control the group. Why? Well, with more control, the male had more access to food supplies. Since dominant males had control of the food supply, females were likely to be attracted to them. In order to be in control, the leader would need to be not only stronger than the other males, but also smarter for survival of himself and the tribe.

The size of the group may have been important. Studies of hominids and monkeys suggest that brain size is related to the size of the group-with individuals in larger groups having larger brains. Another spark. The theory is that social interaction in a larger group is much more demanding than in smaller groups. No wonder we're going crazy with our population so large!

So, with this situation, strong, smart males in control of the food supply would be highly attractive to females. Competition among females for the favors of the males with the best food supply could select for increasing intelligence. The female that obtained a higher protein diet would be capable of higher reproduction and improved survival of offspring.

How would women compete for good males?
As the old saying goes "The way to a man's heart is through his stomach." The ability of the woman to provide a good diet for the man would further enhance the selection of females with horticultural skills and cooking skills and would result in better survival for her children. Certainly all of these elements could provide selection pressure for increased intelligence in the females. Another spark.

This increased intelligence enabled these pre-humans to control fire. I would suggest that a major element, not just a spark, in human brain evolution was the acquisition of fire. The brain had already developed substantially, but fire may have enabled further development. Homo erectus had a brain about 74% as large as modern humans or about 800 ml compared to the modern human brain of 1400 ml.

Imagine the tremendous advantage a campfire provided these primitive peoples-increased security at night and a wider range of food resources such as roots and vegetables that required cooking to be edible. Meat also became more palatable when cooked.

Another possible and very significant factor that control of fire could have led to was communication. For the first time they had light in the evening and did not have to go to sleep when it got dark. They could sit around the fire and convey information about the day's hunting or about food resources. Since the women were already developing some communication ability with their children and men had developed hunting signals to aid in group hunting, a synergy of communication could have developed. The people with the best communication skills would have been highly desirable as mates.

Entertainment such as mimicking the sounds of animals of the hunt may have occurred. Reenactment of the hunt may also have been done around the campfire. Also, the children could be put to sleep allowing the men and women to communicate, which was unlikely during the day while the men and women were foraging for food in different locations.

A larger community would allow for task specialization. Yet another spark. Older women could babysit while the mothers foraged for food and prepared food. Older men could specialize in toolmaking. By allowing specialization, tools could improve faster. Communication skills would aid in spreading the improved technology.

Now, in order for the brain to expand, a complex set of genetic modifications would need to take place simultaneously in the female. The fetal skull would have to increase in size to accommodate the larger brain and the female pelvic area would have to change to accommodate the larger head size of the baby. The baby would have to be born in a much more immature condition than pre-humans with their small heads. The increased size of the baby head and the prolonged development of the baby after birth placed major long-term burdens on the mother. Her mobility would become limited and her need for nutrition and support from others would increase.

Consequently, the choice of a mate capable of providing for her needs would be extremely important for her and the baby's survival. Intelligent evaluation of a potential mate would be very desirable in this situation. Since the female's need for support was critical, competition among females for desirable mates was likely intense. The change from a periodic estrus to constant sexual availability may have been a result of this competition. Maybe, significant changes in the female anatomy such as rounded hips, enlarged breasts, and the loss of body hair may have possibly been the result of this competition for reliable mates.

Evolution of the brain probably came in waves. As we can see, the transition from the relatively secure rain forest to the dangerous and difficult grassland environment presented the pre-humans with major challenges. These challenges were met with anatomical modifications such as the foot and the hand. The brain didn't develop much at this point. Then pre-humans began living by bodies of water and eating diets rich in Omega-3 and Omega-6 fatty acids. We see a significant brain development at this point. Then they began using advanced tools and fire and we see further growth of the skull and a change in the size of the female pelvis. Communication begins and we see profound changes in the development of the brain.

At some point, the brain develops the ability to ask why and pre-humans, at this point, become human. Story telling, fantasy, religion, and ceremony could have been the last step in the evolution of the human brain. Or perhaps our brains are evolving now.

So what can we conclude from all of this?

The evolutionary story is replete with examples of plants and animals that modify rapidly when placed in a new environment. Many examples are on the Galapagos Islands where Darwin got insight into the process of evolution. The cormorant flew to the islands and then lost the ability to fly since it no longer needed to fly to survive. The spines of the prickly pear cactus on the islands are no longer sharp since nothing feeds on it. The Galapagos lizard learned to swim and eat seaweed. The horse developed teeth adapted to prairie grasses. The expanding grasslands in Africa provided an opportunity for a forest dwelling ape to adapt to a new environment and produced a grassland-dwelling ape capable of efficient walking and running, but it wasn't until all of the social aspects of the pre-humans existence came into play that a radically new type of animal evolved-the brainy human being.

And that changed everything! It was good being social here with you today.
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RickWhite

Well-Known Member
I have heard reams of stuff like that. Now, let me point something out neither of you know about the actual science of evolution which I have studied on a molecular level.

Many pseudo-scientists such as anthropologists like to create these possible explanations in which a population would have evolved due to certain traits possibly being advantageous. That is not necessarily the way genetics works. Nature does not just say "gee, this species would benefit from a larger brain" and make it happen.

What happens, is that BY CHANCE some individuals are born with a mutation or attribute that enables their survival. They reproduce and that phenotype is amplified. We can observe that a bacteria the has a simple chemical mutation causing a slight mobility will have an advantage. And we can observe that once this happens the mutation is passed on and the next thing we know we have a flagellum (an amazing apparatus in itself). It doesn't appear because it might come in handy, it appears because there was a chance mutation that created a distinct advantage.

When we can explain what the mutation was and how it became amplified it is scientific proof. When we come up with theories about what may or may not have been beneficial, it is simply conjecture. And the article above even goes beyond that leaving vast gaps in their scenario unexplained. Saying it would have been beneficial to have a larger brain is not even a hypothesis. It would have also been beneficial to have a shotgun - that doesn't make it so. I could come up with similar explanations all day long - this proves nothing.

The best evidence for human evolution I have heard comes not from some bullshit conjecture, but from an amazing discovery I can not recall the name of. I believe a woman came up with it and won a Nobel prize for the theory. I can not remember it well but it had something to do with the presence of bacterial DNA in our cells. She postulated that this was evidence of some endocytosis in our most early stages of development. Now that is scientific proof. I just wish I could remember what her theory was called.

But, like I said, and I don't know why this is so hard to accept. I know that evolution takes place and I know humans are a product of it. I just have difficulty with the notion that billions of chance mutations, each one being a one in a billion could all come together in perfect harmony to create something as complex and amazing as our entire planet including ourselves.

Someone once asked, if you put a billion monkeys in a room with typewriters would they eventually bang out a Shakespeare play? I'm not sure this isn't a fair question.

All I am saying is that when faced with the notion of the sheer likelihood that the whole universe just fell into place, I can't help but be a skeptic and i can't help but think that we are part of a grand scheme. And by the way, I am not convinced that there is a creator either. I am only certain that I do not know the answer.

One thing I know I don't understand is why some people are so adamant about their beliefs. It is human nature to seek closure - i guess some people just can't handle admitting uncertainty.
 

dukeofbaja

New Member
The best part is when RW cites Rocky's inability to catch the chicken in Rocky II as disproof of pevious points made by other posters. You know you are on fire when you hold the 'Rock II' card in your backpocket....:hump:
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
It sounds a little like Rick is talking about Lynn Margulis and endosymbiosis theory. http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/history_24

Rick, you understand random mutation fine but you seem to ignore the power of natural selection, which is Darwin's big breakthrough. Of course no anthropologist claims what you say. They know evolution and not once in any of the material presented does anyone claim directed, or goal-oriented evolution. You keep saying it's conjecture and I have agreed, much of it is, but that doesn't make a creator any more likely. You're evidence is even weaker. You also ignore that the conjecture is based on study of other related species as well as new theories like the experimental biomechanics in Dan Lieberman's lab at Harvard. Their "conjecture" by these "pseudoscientists" are the result of years of painstaking research. And yes, evolution by natural selection is the model that is considered correct when formulating these new hypotheses. That's science, whether you think so or not.

I'm glad you brought up Dr. Margulis. That's what I was talking about when I said levels of confidence. You see how her theory not only is consistent with common ancestry of plants and animals, it supports it.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Hey Mindphunk have you seen much about the mutation of the jaw and the way it connects to the skull and how that affects brain size for humans?

God I cannot believe that I am going to do this, but if anyone wants to see it here is a little docutube video that may or may not be garbage (I am unable to listen to it atm), that seems to go into it a bit. It would really fit well into your above post.

[youtube]<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/g0D_k4lYrdo&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/g0D_k4lYrdo&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>[/youtube]
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
It sounds a little like Rick is talking about Lynn Margulis and endosymbiosis theory. http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/history_24

Rick, you understand random mutation fine but you seem to ignore the power of natural selection, which is Darwin's big breakthrough. Of course no anthropologist claims what you say. They know evolution and not once in any of the material presented does anyone claim directed, or goal-oriented evolution. You keep saying it's conjecture and I have agreed, much of it is, but that doesn't make a creator any more likely. You're evidence is even weaker. You also ignore that the conjecture is based on study of other related species as well as new theories like the experimental biomechanics in Dan Lieberman's lab at Harvard. Their "conjecture" by these "pseudoscientists" are the result of years of painstaking research. And yes, evolution by natural selection is the model that is considered correct when formulating these new hypotheses. That's science, whether you think so or not.

I'm glad you brought up Dr. Margulis. That's what I was talking about when I said levels of confidence. You see how her theory not only is consistent with common ancestry of plants and animals, it supports it.

I'm glad to see you have decided to be reasonable. However, you are still trying to prove your point via red herring.

I'm going to state yet again (as I have done numerous times) that I am not disputing evolution. I do take issue with the conjecture from anthropologists like that above which purely conjecture. All they are doing is taking what evidence we do have and using it to buttress a huge extrapolation. Yes, the underlying evidence is strong, but that doesn't mean the extrapolation is strong. It is possible to build a weak structure on a solid foundation. The fallacy they and you commit is that you argue that because the foundation is strong, the structure must also be strong. That is a non-sequitor.

But back to my main point. As stated, I KNOW evolution happens. My argument is simply that it is POSSIBLE that there is a creator and evolution is simply one of his tools or methods. There are a great many philosophical views one could take. I am not trying to PROVE any of them or give reasons as to why people should have faith in them. I leave that to the philosophers. I am merely suggesting that there is no reason to believe their is a false dichotomy between evolution and creation.

Perhaps, you should make more of an effort to comprehend what people say and to consider their points objectively before launching into an obsessive compulsive tangent in defense of your rigid views.
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
You really don't understand. What you are claiming is pure conjecture. What anthropologists do is base their assumptions on what we know about how the world actually works.

Please propose a mechanism that your god could intervene in evolution, or how he 'uses' evolution as a tool, while maintaining that it still occurred for humans. You are trying to get the benefit of the science while trying to squeeze your god in there somehow. If a god intervened, then naturalistic evolution did not occur. These are mutually exclusive ideas yet you seem intent on claiming they are not.

You don't have to repeat yourself. You do dispute evolution. It is not a false dichotomy but a very real one. Either humans are part of nature and came about because of a series of accidents, including multiple mass extinctions, or humans are the end-point goal of a divine creator that manipulated nature to bring us into existence. I don't understand why you can't see this division. No one is disputing the possibility of a god or your hypothesis. However, it is not supported by the evidence, and would only be proposed in order to lend support to a fairy tale book. It is no more likely than angels being responsible for gravity.

You claim I commit a red-herring fallacy and that we scientists in general commit a non-sequitur fallacy but you have not shown that either one has occurred. Please explain how the logic is incorrect. Just because you don't accept the hypothesis of the scientists, doesn't mean they have committed any fallacious reasoning. Throwing around logical fallacies to make you sound smart doesn't help. In fact they make you look stupid when you use these terms incorrectly.
Scientists don't need to convince YOU of their conclusions and you have yet to give any reason why their 'conjecture' is wrong. You seem to forget that evolution is the foundation of modern biology. Every new idea and hypothesis will be formed with evolution as a given. Just because we don't understand all of the details doesn't mean we should give up and say well then maybe god did it. You continue to commit a real fallacy of logic, the god of the gaps.

You can attack me for not comprehending your posts all day long but I have restated your position clearly and have not created any straw men, so you can't even show that I haven't read or understand what you are claiming.
Don't forget, you are the one that started with a positive claim you have yet to prove. " there isn't very strong evidence as to how humans came to exist"
You ignore that the fact of evolution occurring for every species on this planet and have yet to see any exceptions. We have further evidence from the fossils. The fine details may be missing from many species, but that is why we continue to do science so these questions can be answered. The genetic and biochemical evidence like vitamin C production and Human Chromosome #2 is just more confirmation and makes your statement about lack of evidence purely wishful thinking on your part. Keep your philosophical views all you want, however when you make claims about science, be prepared to back them up.
 
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