Keep the bubbles - lose the stones!

cannatari

Well-Known Member
Let me explain why air-stones are a waste of money and actually impair the oxygenation of your reservoir solution.

Fact: Water is oxygenated buy the movement of it's surface, not by little bubbles within.

Although the tiny bubbles produced by an air-stone do agitate the surface of your res water, if you pull the air-stone off of your hose, the hose alone will produce much larger bubbles that agitate the surface much better. Your nutrient solution will ripple like a lake and oxygenate your water the same way nature does.

I don't hear of anybody using this method, maybe I'm the first. I'd like to hear comments from anybody who is up for the challenge. If this is old news I apologize. Just thought I'd give back.
 

cannatari

Well-Known Member
I'm 3 weeks into testing and it's obvious to me that it's working very well in my garden. I did have an incident where the plants in 1 out of 4 of my hydros were drooping after the hose was unplugged for a day. They perked right back up after I fixed it. I'm positive that it is oxygenating the water. I'm hoping for some people to try it for a census on the subject.
 

andar

Well-Known Member
I think a guy named snutter on here grows without airstones. He just made a circle with the tube and cut 3 holes into the tube. His plants looked great
 

MeJuana

Well-Known Member
I would find it so hard to believe your theory, because people run aquariums with airstones not without. If there was an actual study that showed the use of airstones to be counter productive I would be shocked!
 

MeJuana

Well-Known Member
That is a great idea, my flower system does this already x 3 posts draining down.

canatari not to put down your idea I certainly could be wrong.
 

cannatari

Well-Known Member
the light is off right now or i would take a pic but i did this real quick in paint so you get an idea.

i just have a circulating pump rigged with a pvc pipe to let the water fall on top of itself.



View attachment 923585
Good idea InTheFireMan, I wanted to mention that water can also be agitated with a pump and not need an air pump at all. I prefer not to have to deal with the small amount of heat generated by the water pump but it looks like it's serving 2 purposes in your setup. I'd like to see those pics.
 

cephalopod

Well-Known Member
I have a 75 gallon reef and never have and never will run a air stone. When it comes to aquariums, I think that air stones belong in a goldfish bowl with the scuba diver and burping treasure chest. Cannatari is correct about surface tension in relation to gas exchange.
 

ImTheFireMan

Well-Known Member
Good idea InTheFireMan, I wanted to mention that water can also be agitated with a pump and not need an air pump at all. I prefer not to have to deal with the small amount of heat generated by the water pump but it looks like it's serving 2 purposes in your setup. I'd like to see those pics.
i'll get some pics today after the lights come on.

sounds good but won't the exta submersible pump running heat up the water in the res. ?

i dont have a thermometer in my res but i i'm sure it does heat the water to some extent.
but my res is under my flood and drain table, covered so the light never hits it, it stays at room temp pretty much.



i'll be back with those pics later today.
 

fatman7574

New Member
Guess it all sorta depends on ho much water air interface you have. If you are rumnning a DWC you have little open water surface in contact with the room air so your idea is not worth squat and many, many really smallair bubbles would work better. More surface area than a the much smaller number of larer bubbles so a Higher DO will be realised. However small air bubbles do not increse water flow into the center of the hanging root masses in a DWC so higher DO really would not help anyway. A needle wheel pump with a venturi would work best as it would keep water circulating around and throughthe root masses plus provide many, many small air bubbles. For a reservoir for an aero system or a NTF or ebb and flow simply using a small aquarium power head pointtd up towards the water surface to cause a turbulent suface would be more efficient than a small air pump regardless of how it is used (small or large bubbles).
 

xum

Well-Known Member
I'll give it a shot, my airstone is a piece of shit anyways. I'll just feed some extra tubing into the reservoir after losing the airstone and hell, maybe I'll even put a few more tubes in there. Can't hurt any, and it seems like my airstone is clogging up anyhow after a few bouts with some root slimage. You just can't get that shit 100% out of an airstone. You can kill it, you just can't thoroughly clean it out.
 

pftek

Active Member
yeah i totally agree and I use airstones. cause a lot of the roots aren't even near the surface or the airstone yet they are thriving quite well.
 

fatman7574

New Member
You all worry needlessly to much about reservoir temps and a few ppm higher DO. You have to get the water to all the roots in sufficient quantities. If not the few extra ppm possible in the Reservoir water between say 64 degrees and 84 degrees does not matter. Trying to maintain high DO to prevent root rot is like putting a very small bandageon a very largewound. It provivdes very, very little benefit.
 

GreenMan<3

Active Member
I think you're assumption is wrong. As a hardcore freshwater aquarist, tank water oxygen level is of extreme importance. I would say that there is probably very little difference in surface agitation when using a stone or no stone. In theory, the smaller bubbles of the stone create greater surface area for O2 dissolution, but you are right that very little O2 is dissolved from the bubbles, most is from surface agitation.

My thought, and experience (though not scientifically measured), is that a mass of tiny bubbles bursting on the surface creates more oxygen exchange than a couple of large, wavy bubbles. Yes, no stone probably does create more actually agitation of the surface as measured by actual water movement, but in terms of surface area available for oxygen exchange the mass of bubbles should be superior.

I also inject carbon dioxide into my planted aquariums, and within that area there is much experimentation and study done around bubble size and injection method vs. dissolution rate, with the goal being to get 100% of your CO2 to dissolve in the water (as opposed to bubbling away at the surface). The CO2 issue isn't relevant to hydro, I only mention it to say that I have had experience with many inexpensive DIY and store bought methods to dissolve gas in water.

At the end of the day, for the purposes of hydroponics (increasing oxygen to the roots via increasing oxygen in the nut solution) I don't believe that there would be a significant impact on plant growth rate or production if you are using the same air pump with or without an airstone. That being said, I'd love to see someone actually do a pseudo-scientific study and get a definitive answer. Personally, I think there are so many other variables, many of which are tough if not impossible to control, that affect a plants growth and yield that it would be virtually impossible even for the most advanced hydro gardener to come up with a definitive answer outside of a laboratory setting.

Personally, I have a fairly shallow reservoir and use an old, 6 inch aquarium airstone that I had laying around. I chose that one simply because it was laying around and not of much use for me in my aquariums. Had that not been available, I probably would have used a standard aquarium airstone. For the curious, there are dozens of types of airstones of various sizes and various bubble production sizes.

Now the confession - this is my first hydro grow. I've been a soil grower for years and have really dug into the science of hydro. But, although my hydro experience doesn't qualify me to speak to the results of nut aeration, I think my freshwater aquatics experience certainly might lend some insight into how to get oxygen into a liquid reservoir.
 

rju12

Active Member
The only thing is I believe it is the actual agitated water air mixture that oxygenates the water. This is why it should be the surface area that is important. 1 big bubble would not be as good as many more bubbles assuming they have the same volume because the ratio of volume to surface area wouldn't be as good example for a cube (since i don't remember the formulas off hand) a 2x2x2 cube has a surface area of 2by2x6sides=24squared units and volume of 2x2x2=8cubed units where as a 3x3x3 cube has a surface area of 3by3x6sides=54squared units and volume of 3x3x3=27cubed units. See how much 2x2x2 cube has an volume of 8cubed units and the surface area (area in contact with the water) is exactly three times that, 24 squared units. In comparison the 3x3x3 cube has a volume of 27 cubed units and the surface area is exactly double that at 54 squared units. So you can see the ratio of surface area to volume gets better as a shape gets smaller. I think this is why at least people think air stones do help....
 
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