The "OFFICIAL" cast your VOTE on PROP 19 thread

[UncleBuck]

here are the age of consent laws for california....not a single reference to 'knowingly'

http://www.ageofconsent.com/california.htm

[SIZE=+2]PENAL CODE [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]SECTION 261-269 [/SIZE]

261.5. (a) Unlawful sexual intercourse is an act of sexual
intercourse accomplished with a person who is not the spouse of the
perpetrator, if the person is a minor.
For the purposes of this section, a "minor" is a person
under the age of 18 years and an "adult" is a person
who is at least 18 years of age.
(b) Any person who engages in an act of unlawful sexual
intercourse with a minor who is not more than three years
older or three years younger than the perpetrator, is
guilty of a misdemeanor.


and here is the verbiage for prop 19...it does reference 'knowingly'

http://yeson19.com/node/6

(c) Every person 21 years of age or over who knowingly furnishes, administers, or gives, or offers to furnish, administer or give, any marijuana to a person aged 18 years or older, but younger than 21 years of age, shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of up to six months and be fined up to $1,000 for each offense.


if you can create a reasonable doubt in a court of law, you're off the hook.

i doubt many cops would even care anyways. i can enumerate the many times when i was caught with paraphernelia or resin in arizona, a felony, and was simply made to throw it away and left to go on my happy way.

so there is a big difference, and your analogy is not a good one.

next....

 

[Dan Kone]

so it's ok as long as you don't "knowingly" know how old they are?

If you are referring to prop 19, yes. As long as you don't know how old they are it's ok.

A cop would have to prove that you knew they were under 21 when you sold/gave them bud.

i still wonder, why the need to throw insults?

When you throw a little happy face with a dunce cap in all your replies to me, don't act confused when you get a sarcastic response. It's not exactly coming out of nowhere.

 

[fdd2blk]

If you are referring to prop 19, yes. As long as you don't know how old they are it's ok.

you're funny.


who would admit to knowingly doing it then?

seems like a pointless point to make a point to write into the prop. doesn't it? unless you only plan on sharing with strangers.


so i know this guy and i know he's not 21 so i can't smoke with him. but i don't know this guy, so who cares.

makes PERFECT sense.

 

[UncleBuck]

seems like a pointless point to make a point to write into the prop. doesn't it?

not pointless at all. it is a very crafty move. ever heard of the saying 'ignorance of the law is not an excuse'?

'knowingly' gives you an excuse. it leaves plenty of room to create reasonable doubt. reasonable doubt is all you need in a court of law.

don't believe me? ask a lawyer. i can give you my aunt's phone number if you want.

 

[fdd2blk]

not pointless at all. it is a very crafty move. ever heard of the saying 'ignorance of the law is not an excuse'?

'knowingly' gives you an excuse. it leaves plenty of room to create reasonable doubt. reasonable doubt is all you need in a court of law.

don't believe me? ask a lawyer. i can give you my aunt's phone number if you want.

how do you prove you DIDN'T know something?

go ahead, call your aunt.

 

[Dan Kone]

who would admit to knowingly doing it then?

Exactly

Only if you're retarded enough to get tricked by the cops would anyone admit it. I'm sure cops will do their usual bullshit "just admit it now or you're going to prison!". But everyone who knows to just STFU when a cop starts trying to talk to them will be ok.

seems like a pointless point to make a point to write into the prop. doesn't it?

No. The whole purpose of writing all the underage stuff was to prevent a stream of attack ads they were going to air about how if you vote for legalization they are going to sell pot to kids and shit like that. This gives the appearance that anyone who sells pot to an 18 year old will go to jail. Sure, it'd be extremely difficult for a cop to actually prosecute someone for that, but that doesn't matter as long as that is what it appears to do.

A lot of prop 19 is about political optics. There is a lot of stuff in it specifically designed to appease the concerns of moderate/conservative voters. That's why it's marketed as "tax and regulate cannabis" instead of "legalize marijuana".

It makes it look like people will go to jail for giving pot to an 18 year old. But it's unlikely that will ever happen in reality.

Prop 19 makes it look like it is taxing cannabis, but in reality there is no specific tax added to cannabis by prop 19. All it does is say that the government is allowed to tax it. The government doesn't need prop 19 to tax cannabis. It's perfectly legal for them to tax it now.

Prop 19 doesn't actually put people in jail for selling/giving buds to 18 year olds. Prop 19 doesn't actually tax cannabis. It's basically a lot of bullshit designed to trick moderate/conservative voters into voting for legalization.

 

[Dan Kone]

how do you prove you DIDN'T know something?

go ahead, call your aunt.

Doesn't work that way. In our justice system you have to prove guilt. You don't have to prove you didn't they were under 21. It's on the cops to prove that you did know they were under 21. Make sense?

 

[fdd2blk]

Exactly

Only if you're retarded enough to get tricked by the cops would anyone admit it. I'm sure cops will do their usual bullshit "just admit it now or you're going to prison!". But everyone who knows to just STFU when a cop starts trying to talk to them will be ok.



No. The whole purpose of writing all the underage stuff was to prevent a stream of attack ads they were going to air about how if you vote for legalization they are going to sell pot to kids and shit like that. This gives the appearance that anyone who sells pot to an 18 year old will go to jail. Sure, it'd be extremely difficult for a cop to actually prosecute someone for that, but that doesn't matter as long as that is what it appears to do.

A lot of prop 19 is about political optics. There is a lot of stuff in it specifically designed to appease the concerns of moderate/conservative voters. That's why it's marketed as "tax and regulate cannabis" instead of "legalize marijuana".

It makes it look like people will go to jail for giving pot to an 18 year old. But it's unlikely that will ever happen in reality.

Prop 19 makes it look like it is taxing cannabis, but in reality there is no specific tax added to cannabis by prop 19. All it does is say that the government is allowed to tax it. The government doesn't need prop 19 to tax cannabis. It's perfectly legal for them to tax it now.

Prop 19 doesn't actually put people in jail for selling/giving buds to 18 year olds. Prop 19 doesn't actually tax cannabis. It's basically a lot of bullshit designed to trick moderate/conservative voters into voting for legalization.

smoke and mirrors you say?


all the more reason to vote NO.


thanks.

 

[Dan Kone]

smoke and mirrors you say?


all the more reason to vote NO.


thanks.

Yeah, it's smoke in mirrors in favor of legalization. It's only a reason to vote no it if you are against legalization. Would you prefer that prop 19 actually did put people in jail for selling to an 18 year old? Would you rather that prop 19 actually did tax cannabis? Didn't think so.

These "smoke and mirrors" are a good thing. It is what is going to get moderate non-pot smoking voters to vote in favor of legalization. Almost every prop on the ballot includes smoke and mirrors. Bout time one had some in our favor.

 

[UncleBuck]

how do you prove you DIDN'T know something?

go ahead, call your aunt.

you don't.

burden of proof is on the state.

justice system 101 stuff here. at least give me a challenge.

 

[fdd2blk]

Yeah, it's smoke in mirrors in favor of legalization. It's only a reason to vote no it if you are against legalization. Would you prefer that prop 19 actually did put people in jail for selling to an 18 year old? Would you rather that prop 19 actually did tax cannabis? Didn't think so.

These "smoke and mirrors" are a good thing. It is what is going to get moderate non-pot smoking voters to vote in favor of legalization. Almost every prop on the ballot includes smoke and mirrors. Bout time one had some in our favor.

so now you're telling me there won't really be any tax?



i would "prefer" something completely different then this BS. you won't listen so i won't bother.

have fun being fooled.

for your sake, i hope you're right.

 

[The Ruiner]

I havent weighed in here yet...FUCK 19!!!

It is a slap in the face to the community at large.

 

[Dan Kone]

so now you're telling me there won't really be any tax?

No. I said nothing like that at all. You're just looking for a way to put a negative spin on everything that is pro-prop19.

What I said was that prop 19 doesn't specifically tax cannabis in any way nor does it make taxing cannabis legal because taxing cannabis is already legal without prop 19. That is nothing close to saying cannabis will never be taxed.

I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand.

i would "prefer" something completely different then this BS. you won't listen so i won't bother.

I know. You prefer to continue prohibition.

 

[The Ruiner]

FUCK 19

Anyone that wants to get past the rhetoric should read and weigh things out for themselves.

I am a CA-MMJ patient/grower that is COMPLETELY against 19. I would say wait for two years and vote on the CCHHI

 

[The Ruiner]

Why would so many people here be willing to forfeit the rights they already have? 19 intends to make mostly everyone a consumer, or a criminal (yes, it will be a crime to possess weed from an unsanctioned source, which it isn't now). It is monopolization, manipulation, and underhanded politics in its ACTUAL WRITTEN FORM, but the face of it is this happy-go-lucky "unity, we did it!" bullshit.

Is everyone that impatient that they cant wait for two years to vote on a bill that actually was designed by people that care, not someone trying to turn you into McWeed's Corp. consumers/slaves?

 

[Dan Kone]

I would say wait for two years and vote on the CCHHI

Where is the text of this CCHHI? What assurances do we have that it will actually make it on the ballot?

 

[fdd2blk]

Yeah, it's smoke in mirrors in favor of legalization. It's only a reason to vote no it if you are against legalization. Would you prefer that prop 19 actually did put people in jail for selling to an 18 year old? Didn't think so.
Would you rather that prop 19 actually did tax cannabis?

These "smoke and mirrors" are a good thing. It is what is going to get moderate non-pot smoking voters to vote in favor of legalization. Almost every prop on the ballot includes smoke and mirrors. Bout time one had some in our favor.

No. I said nothing like that at all. You're just looking for a way to put a negative spin on everything that is pro-prop19.

What I said was that prop 19 doesn't specifically tax cannabis in any way nor does it make taxing cannabis legal because taxing cannabis is already legal without prop 19. That is nothing close to saying cannabis will never be taxed.

I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand.



I know. You prefer to continue prohibition.

i not sure why YOU can't see my confusion.

nice of you to figure it all out and tell me how i really feel. thanks.

 

[fdd2blk]

Where is the text of this CCHHI? What assurances do we have that it will actually make it on the ballot?

what assurances do you have that it won't?

nee ner, nee ner

 

[The Ruiner]

Well since Jacks' family went and discredited his lifes' work by endorsing a bill he was vehemently opposed to, who knows?

http://youthfederation.com/cchhi2012.html

You can find the text there.

My whole take on this is that everyone is way too excited for some total BS. I would think that after so much BS that people would get smart, wake up, and start really looking at things. But it hasnt happened. It needs to. 19 intends to shut the door on anyone that isn't running a gigantic op. It shouldn't happen that way. Californians would be way better off to just wait a little...Let 19 die.

 

[The Ruiner]

Furthermore, I think its hilariously two-faced that there is so much money behind 19...Really, all this money is coming from LEGITIMATE means? Hmm....weed people that have millions of dollars to spend? how did they get all that money? Hmm...?