Organics ARE chemicals

doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
cerberus said:
I have posted my concerns but mostly lurked through this thread and for what I can see this is just a bashing fest.
The spainard was the second poster, and had a dialouge into the second page. I would hardly call that a drive by posting. If anyone has done that it would be FDD, he shot in here once said some shit about epsom salt and a hell storm broke out but no one is calling that out..

You have to admit it was a pretty troll inspiring intial post. To go into the organics forum and say that they are all being played, can be described in no other way as inflamatory.


I'm sorry but this whole thing is full of trolls and/or aggro people, I can see why the Fly left.
Click to expand...
I can see why everyone would think it was a "troll inspired" thread. On the surface it does appear that way but the OP is pretty much correct. Plants don't take in ANY nutrients in organic form. They must first be broken down into "chemical" form before the plant can absorb and utilize them. Chemical nutrients contain chelating agents, but other than that they are already in the proper form for the plants to utilize them. No need to break them down. Most "chemical" ferts are derived from natural, mineral sources so the term "chemical" or "synthetic" is not exactly correct either. I'm not arguing whether one is better than the other. It's personal preference really. I have an organic vegetable garden and I love working it. My herbs are grown with both organic and "chemical" ferts because it gives me more control. I've grown totally organic bud and I will say this. The same strain grown side by side, one organic, one with "chemicals" and I could not tell the difference. In fact I got the jars mixed up and had no idea which one is which! lol!:dunce:
 
fabfun

fabfun

New Member
I want to see some veggy porn

doc111 said:
I can see why everyone would think it was a "troll inspired" thread. On the surface it does appear that way but the OP is pretty much correct. Plants don't take in ANY nutrients in organic form. They must first be broken down into "chemical" form before the plant can absorb and utilize them. Chemical nutrients contain chelating agents, but other than that they are already in the proper form for the plants to utilize them. No need to break them down. Most "chemical" ferts are derived from natural, mineral sources so the term "chemical" or "synthetic" is not exactly correct either. I'm not arguing whether one is better than the other. It's personal preference really. I have an organic vegetable garden and I love working it. My herbs are grown with both organic and "chemical" ferts because it gives me more control. I've grown totally organic bud and I will say this. The same strain grown side by side, one organic, one with "chemicals" and I could not tell the difference. In fact I got the jars mixed up and had no idea which one is which! lol!:dunce:
Click to expand...
 
hippiepudz024

hippiepudz024

Well-Known Member
hahah lol ya show em , what you are saying is correct and i am an organic grower myself, who cares why do people get so mad at this guy he's got proven research
 
Barngrower

Barngrower

Member
Ok so new grower, have taken a college level organic chem class, and no matter what you are going to put in your plant, organically derived or not, it's going to be a chemical of some sort......
Chemical: noun. any substance used in or resulting from a reaction involving changes to atoms or molecules, especially one derived artificially for practical use.
So even water could be considered a chemical, because it is "Actively Absorbed" by the root system and used in the reactions in the plant making ATP and such.......
All I know about chemicals and ganja is that u have to use ones that are safe for produce or something to that extent.
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
Barngrower said:
Ok so new grower, have taken a college level organic chem class, and no matter what you are going to put in your plant, organically derived or not, it's going to be a chemical of some sort......
Chemical: noun. any substance used in or resulting from a reaction involving changes to atoms or molecules, especially one derived artificially for practical use.
So even water could be considered a chemical, because it is "Actively Absorbed" by the root system and used in the reactions in the plant making ATP and such.......
All I know about chemicals and ganja is that u have to use ones that are safe for produce or something to that extent.
Click to expand...
.............and water is an inorganic molecule.;-)
 
sk'mo

sk'mo

Active Member
Well, without a Master's, or being a teacher, I'm not sure how much weight my opinion will carry, but here it is:

"Organics" is nothing more than a term that describes products that are derived from biotic sources, or a method of gardening/agriculture that doesn't use industrial/petroleum-sourced chemicals as a source of either pesticides or fertilizers.

"Chemical" refers to products derived from petroleum or other inorganic sources. With regard to reefer, the main concern with fertilizers derived this way is the presence of heavy metals which are not often found in organic fertilizers. It would be hard to argue that smoking heavy metals isn't bad for ones health. That said, this concern would be negated if one simply checked online (There is a recent thread about AN and heavy metals that provides a link to information on most fertilizers.) to see what is in the product.

IMO, organic is the most environmentally sound way to grow if one can avoid using products that are stripped from nature (ie: Peat moss taken from peat bogs.). I think growing plants in a natural way is best for us and for the planet. However, if all of our food was produced this way it would lead to mass starvation because the human population has grown to it's current size as a direct result of the Green Revolution. Were pesticides are concerned I am a fan of Integrated Plant/Pesticide Management (IPM)- The judicious use of both organic and chemical controls with the main focus being healthy plants grown through proper cultural practices. These leads me to believe that soil and and organic ferts are the best way to go.
 
cerberus

cerberus

Well-Known Member
as you said, that word chemical is a broad describer. The concern is how the chemicals where developed/synthesised/extracted, as an organic grower I know what and how it is extracted and (more importantly in this disscusion) created. But the store bought fertilizers (organic or not) we don't know how they came about to get that pure dose of pk13/14, through medals as strainers, electrified, centerfuged, the list is pretty long on how these proccess are done. These proccess can and often due leave residential (inactive) ingredients.

Canabis is well known for uptaking heavy metals and toxins ut of the soil, they use it in waste clean-up sites all over the world.

For me, it comes down to taking in other facts than what is the deffinition of a chemical. The big fear for me is not if the K is the same as my K but what else is attached to it, that they consider inactive because it does not relate to the functions of the fertilizier.

by the way, technically all chems are the same thing like marinol is pure THC, its not.
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
sk'mo said:
Well, without a Master's, or being a teacher, I'm not sure how much weight my opinion will carry, but here it is:

"Organics" is nothing more than a term that describes products that are derived from biotic sources, or a method of gardening/agriculture that doesn't use industrial/petroleum-sourced chemicals as a source of either pesticides or fertilizers.

"Chemical" refers to products derived from petroleum or other inorganic sources. With regard to reefer, the main concern with fertilizers derived this way is the presence of heavy metals which are not often found in organic fertilizers. It would be hard to argue that smoking heavy metals isn't bad for ones health. That said, this concern would be negated if one simply checked online (There is a recent thread about AN and heavy metals that provides a link to information on most fertilizers.) to see what is in the product.

IMO, organic is the most environmentally sound way to grow if one can avoid using products that are stripped from nature (ie: Peat moss taken from peat bogs.). I think growing plants in a natural way is best for us and for the planet. However, if all of our food was produced this way it would lead to mass starvation because the human population has grown to it's current size as a direct result of the Green Revolution. Were pesticides are concerned I am a fan of Integrated Plant/Pesticide Management (IPM)- The judicious use of both organic and chemical controls with the main focus being healthy plants grown through proper cultural practices. These leads me to believe that soil and and organic ferts are the best way to go.
Click to expand...
That was a good post, however I want to make a few distinctions. Petroleum is organic. By definition and chemically. Fossil fuels came from ancient living things. People often associate them with being harmful or full of chemicals and they are. Many organic molecules are highly toxic and there are synthetic compounds which are completely inert. :leaf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel

I'm not here to convince anybody that one method of gardening is superior to the other. It's all about personal preference IMO. I do believe "chemical" nutrients tend to get an unnecessarily bad rap and organic is given almost mystical status. Done properly, the plants don't know the difference and I'd wager that a lot of the taste differences people report are at least a little psychological.:weed:
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
Humus Joe said:
This thread is so off topic.

"ORGANIC" growing is simply growing as it has been done by the earth forever.
Organic matieraials are broken down by soil micro-organisms, producing stable nutrients bonded within the humus, cannot be leached away, avsilable to the plants in just the amounts that it cares to take.

Not anything that comes out of a bottle,. It might be derived.from a natural source, could be used as an innoculant, and a boost for ur soil microbes, but essentially isnt needed. All that is needed is carbon:nitrogen, brownwaste:greenwaste.


Wtf is the argument.?
Click to expand...
Admittedly, there have been a few distractions, but mostly everything has been related to the topic of the thread in one way or another. Understanding the "hows" and the "whys" of any topic is always fundamental to true understanding, grasshopper.;-)


[video=youtube;WCyJRXvPNRo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCyJRXvPNRo[/video]
 
sk'mo

sk'mo

Active Member
I understand that petroleum is technically organic, but in the context of a horticultural discussion, it is not. It basically comes down to semantics. Organic chemistry is different from organic horticulture, despite the fact that the two are linked.

I agree that it is mostly a personal preference thing. I think a healthy plant is a healthy plant, my focus is environmental sustainability. Heavy metals are a legitimate concern though. Ingesting/inhaling them can't be good for you (Same reason I avoid eating fish.), especially for those with health issues. My experience lays with outdoor gardening (Not cannabis. Only on my second grow.) and as far as that goes, organic is better for the long-term viability of soil and reduces the need for fertilization, but more important than the organic/chemical debate are proper cultural practices.
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
sk'mo said:
I understand that petroleum is technically organic, but in the context of a horticultural discussion, it is not. It basically comes down to semantics. Organic chemistry is different from organic horticulture, despite the fact that the two are linked.

I agree that it is mostly a personal preference thing. I think a healthy plant is a healthy plant, my focus is environmental sustainability. Heavy metals are a legitimate concern though. Ingesting/inhaling them can't be good for you (Same reason I avoid eating fish.), especially for those with health issues. My experience lays with outdoor gardening (Not cannabis. Only on my second grow.) and as far as that goes, organic is better for the long-term viability of soil and reduces the need for fertilization, but more important than the organic/chemical debate are proper cultural practices.
Click to expand...
A lot of misinformation is being espoused by the organic movement. Much of it is a marketing ploy IMO. Sustainability is another word du jour that most people have no idea what it really means. The organic movement has had some pretty devastating unintended consequences such as disruption of bat colonies due to the harvesting of guano, and kelp bed decimation due to seaweed harvesting. Nothing is without consequence. Heavy metals are ubiquitous. True, certain foods and certain products may tend to contain higher amounts, but they are in our water, our soil, our air. You can't avoid them, not totally anyway. Even the proverbial plastic bubble is made with petroleum distillates and contains heavy metals.:bigjoint:

I just don't want people to think that one way is totally without disadvantages or negative consequences. :leaf:
 
sk'mo

sk'mo

Active Member
Absolutely true, nothing is without consequence. 'Sustainability' does get thrown around that way, hence my mentioning of peat bogs in my original post. Nevermind the impact of processing and shipping these products. The question is: Which products are more sustainable? I'd put my money on homemade compost.

Although heavy metals are omnipresent, I'm all about mitigating it's presence in cannabis cultivation. So in that sense, I'll use fertilizers that are free of HMs, chemical or organic.
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
sk'mo said:
Absolutely true, nothing is without consequence. 'Sustainability' does get thrown around that way, hence my mentioning of peat bogs in my original post. Nevermind the impact of processing and shipping these products. The question is: Which products are more sustainable? I'd put my money on homemade compost.

Although heavy metals are omnipresent, I'm all about mitigating it's presence in cannabis cultivation. So in that sense, I'll use fertilizers that are free of HMs, chemical or organic.
Click to expand...
I'm not trying to be a buzz kill, I promise, but another problem with organic amendments is that many of them the heavy metal content is unkown. It's going to depend heavily on the source and methods of extraction. Totally agree about homemade compost. Good stuff if you know what you're doing. I can't seem to make enough of it since I have a tiny yard. I can buy it but where is it coming from? How is it made? What is it made with? How far does it have to travel to get to me? All potential problems for sustainability. In trying to be more "environmentally responsible" or "sustainable" we can inadvertantly do harm. Sometimes just locally produced is the way to go no matter what method of production since it cuts down on wasted produce from damage in transport or spoilage. Not as much fuel is burned in order to ship to its final destination. It's really difficult to see the whole picture when dealing with organics and sustainability. :weed:
 
doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
Humus Joe said:
Skmo- great info, well put.

Doc11- Ur understanding of the issue is without question, so why antagonise?
Yes big biz have morons on a string where the O word is considered, and is having.just as many detrimental effects..

Someone start a thread about growing (organically), waste carbon & nitrogen feeding soil, soil feeds plants.
you, skmo, madodah, instead of arguing about it, work together to educate the masses.

I mean someone just called me out saying that coco needs "a whole line of additives" to be succesful, as opposed to any full spectrum soluble nute.
Simple plant education is severly lacking on this site IMHO
IMHO starting with the basics, like how plant grows in the woods naturally is a great starting point, then apply this to the way u grow any.plant in any system, hydro, aero amything.

Keeping harsh ferts and poisons off the earths surface ie. ur backyard,. If ppl picked up a book occasionally they would find out why.
Click to expand...
Did I miss something?:? I wasn't antagonizing anyone. In fact, sk'mo and I are having a rather civilized discussion. I simply am pointing out some things that many people don't give a second thought. I spend way too much time on this site trying to do exactly what you suggested............help educate people and stop the spread of bad information. If somebody comes at me all aggressive, I am prone to get aggressive right back. If they keep it civilized I will do the same. Sure, I like to have a bit of fun as well but you are free to look at my threads and posts and see my contributions to the site.:weed:
 
Nullis

Nullis

Moderator
I don't have time to read 11 pages of ramblings (even interesting ramblings) but I have to say something...

Everything on Earth is made up of chemicals, this is true. Some chemicals simply don't exist anywhere in the natural world.

To say that detrivores and microbes break organic amendments down into 'chemical fertilizer' is so, so far short of the big picture. It is really an insult to the soil food web and everything that is part of it.
When you force feed your plants with synthetic nutrients chelated with ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid, you have the burden of providing the plant with every component that it requires to sustain itself. You would also have to provide any other things that the plant maybe doesn't require, but which would accelerate growth and vigor. You have the burden of keeping things balanced.

Detrivores and microbes do so much more than break organic matter down into 'chemical fertilizer'. Aside from the primary components the plants require, they provide for things like anti-biotics, vitamins, amino acids, etc.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top