Well The Big Day Has Arrived

[stonyt]

To state that the Teabaggers are racist is to say that all political movements are racist.

More than a couple Democrats voted for Obama only because he is black. And more than a couple of Democrats voted for McCain because Obama is black.

I know a few. People who have never voted for a Republican, voted for McCain in the last Presidential election. It does not take a Ph. D. in Political Science to figure that one out.



And a few offensive signs at a rally prove nothing.

Even if a sign was held saying something really offensive like "Lynch Sambo," all it would prove is that someone attended a rally carrying a sign. Infiltrators attend rallies, you know.

An anti-Teabagger group was recently discredited because the leader of the group worked on political activities on government computer equipment while he was being paid to teach students in a public school.

And MoveOn.org encourages members to attend opposition rallies for the sole purpose of agitating. The group urges its members to instigate incidents and record them.

Members of ACORN have posed as Tea Part Patriots and yelled racist remarks at rallies to perpetuate the myth that the Tea Party is racist.

 

[Dan Kone]

Those signs are no more offensive some of the gems from the Bush years.

I disagree. I was at many anti-war rallies. While their were signs making fun of Bush, nothing was this bad. And when there was stuff this bad, it wasn't as frequent.

By the way, Bush was compared to a monkey, too. Actually, I believe it was a chimp, but you see my point.

Not the same, no racial component. They can't compare Obama to a monkey or have pictures of Obama with a bone through his nose then act surprised when people think they are racist.

And a shocking amount of political propaganda out there targeting female Conservatives could be interpreted as misogyny.

How so?

Treating someone differently based on the color of his skin is racism.

Yes it is.

Obama perceives people like me as the enemy and Democrats seem perfectly fine with that, yet those same people will recoil in indignant horror when I say his agenda is destructive.

Obama went out of his way to compromise with republicans. Every time he did, they just moved further to the right and then called him a socialist for not moving with them. His health care plan is pretty much the same as republican Bob Dole's health care plan in the 90's. He past the largest tax cut in American history. Yet he was called a socialist for it.

 

[Dan Kone]

The impetus behind the single payer public option was to drive private insurance providers out of the market. It ultimately would have killed an entire industry.

That's crap. There are still plenty of private Medicare options. It would have made health care affordable for everyone. Conservatives made sure we didn't even have the option. Don't blame Obama for high insurance costs, you did this.

You don't get to dictate to me what I choose to complain about.

Don't brake things then expect people to take you seriously when you complain about breaking them. Conservatives did everything they could to make sure the health care law was shit, so they could complain about it. It is not reasonable for them to complain about something they made sure didn't work very well.

We could have had affordable health insurance for everyone, conservatives made sure we did not. Blame yourself.

 

[doc111]

That's crap. There are still plenty of private Medicare options. It would have made health care affordable for everyone. Conservatives made sure we didn't even have the option. Don't blame Obama for high insurance costs, you did this.



Don't brake things then expect people to take you seriously when you complain about breaking them. Conservatives did everything they could to make sure the health care law was shit, so they could complain about it. It is not reasonable for them to complain about something they made sure didn't work very well.

We could have had affordable health insurance for everyone, conservatives made sure we did not. Blame yourself.

There are those of us who don't believe socialized medicine is sustainable. We are broke as a country, and almost all of the European countries with socialized healthcare are in even worse shape than the U.S. It has to be about what's good in the long run as well as the short run. Obama had a super majority in congress and still couldn't get everything he wanted. Every single republican voted no on that shit because it goes against everything that the republicans stand for. The liberals need to take a long hard look in the mirror and ask themselves who really screwed Obamacare up. I personally agree that something needs to be done about the rising cost of healthcare and the many shortcomings of private insurace. I don't have the answers but I don't personally believe Obamacare ever was the answer. The bottom is falling out of our economy and more attention should've been paid to that. It was a crucial misstep on Obama's part. That's what politics is all about. Making decisions, being able to justify those decisions, and living with the consequences when those decisions turn out to bite you in the ass.

 

[Dan Kone]

There are those of us who don't believe socialized medicine is sustainable.

Those of you who believe that are wrong. Socialized medicine is the norm in the industrialized world.

I think you're confusing socialized medicine with socialized insurance by the way. No one is asking for socialized medicine, only an option of socialized insurance which lowers cost all around.

We are broke as a country, and almost all of the European countries with socialized healthcare are in even worse shape than the U.S.

Not true. Our debt as a % of GDP is higher than most countries with socialized health care.

And you do realize no one was advocating free health insurance based on new taxes or debt spending right? You have to pay for the public option individually. It wasn't free health insurance paid for by the government.

It has to be about what's good in the long run as well as the short run.

The collective bargaining powers provided by a government option reduces costs and if it's run like medicare is more efficient too. It is an excellent long term solution.

Obama had a super majority in congress and still couldn't get everything he wanted.

Not true. Blue dog democrats opposed his agenda. Without them he had no majority.

The liberals need to take a long hard look in the mirror and ask themselves who really screwed Obamacare up.

And republicans need to take a long hard look at the practical realities they are voting against instead of just voting based on ideologies. The original health insurance plan would have lowered costs for everyone. The practical reality is that republicans all voted against cheaper more reliable health insurance for everyone. They put the profits of corporations over the well beings of Americans. It's shameful they would let their thirst for power and blind obedience to an ideology over the welfare of the people.

I personally agree that something needs to be done about the rising cost of healthcare and the many shortcomings of private insurace. I don't have the answers

Exactly. You have no solution, but Obama did. Conservatives made sure the problem wasn't solved with out proposing their own practical solution to the problem.

The bottom is falling out of our economy and more attention should've been paid to that. It was a crucial misstep on Obama's part.

That's crap. He paid a lot of attention to the economy. The economy has improved greatly since he took office. We were headed towards a depression and he pulled us out of it. He passed the largest tax cut in American history and you still complain that he's not paying attention to the economy.

Even if Obama passed everything the republicans wanted they would just move further to the right asking for something new, and then you'd complain if Obama didn't give into that as well.

That's what politics is all about. Making decisions, being able to justify those decisions, and living with the consequences when those decisions turn out to bite you in the ass.

And right now we are still paying for electing Bush and obedience to the conservative fundamental opinion that the financial system should be deregulated. Bush broke the economy, not Obama.

 

[londonfog]

Members of ACORN have posed as Tea Part Patriots and yelled racist remarks at rallies to perpetuate the myth that the Tea Party is racist.

where did you hear that from Fox news ????

 

[doc111]

Those of you who believe that are wrong. Socialized medicine is the norm in the industrialized world.

I think you're confusing socialized medicine with socialized insurance by the way. No one is asking for socialized medicine, only an option of socialized insurance which lowers cost all around.



Not true. Our debt as a % of GDP is higher than most countries with socialized health care.

And you do realize no one was advocating free health insurance based on new taxes or debt spending right? You have to pay for the public option individually. It wasn't free health insurance paid for by the government.



The collective bargaining powers provided by a government option reduces costs and if it's run like medicare is more efficient too. It is an excellent long term solution.



Not true. Blue dog democrats opposed his agenda. Without them he had no majority.



And republicans need to take a long hard look at the practical realities they are voting against instead of just voting based on ideologies. The original health insurance plan would have lowered costs for everyone. The practical reality is that republicans all voted against cheaper more reliable health insurance for everyone. They put the profits of corporations over the well beings of Americans. It's shameful they would let their thirst for power and blind obedience to an ideology over the welfare of the people.



Exactly. You have no solution, but Obama did. Conservatives made sure the problem wasn't solved with out proposing their own practical solution to the problem.



That's crap. He paid a lot of attention to the economy. The economy has improved greatly since he took office. We were headed towards a depression and he pulled us out of it. He passed the largest tax cut in American history and you still complain that he's not paying attention to the economy.

Even if Obama passed everything the republicans wanted they would just move further to the right asking for something new, and then you'd complain if Obama didn't give into that as well.



And right now we are still paying for electing Bush and obedience to the conservative fundamental opinion that the financial system should be deregulated. Bush broke the economy, not Obama.

I would not be so arrogant as to tell a socialist or a liberal that they are "wrong". I think we all want pretty much the same thing, we just disagree on how to acheive it. There are some very educated, very charitable individuals who are conservative or libertarian. I am no economist or political scientist but I think there are good things about both philosophies. I don't think that any half educated person wants a "true socialist" government just as they don't want a purely free market. The problem is striking a healthy balance. What works in the rest of the industrialized world may not necessarily work here. We are not the same as Europe, trust me, I lived there for almost 2 years. There are some real problems with socialized medicine or insurance, whatever you want to call it and Pelosi/Reid and Co. simply ignore those concerns. This is a major thing and everything has untintended consequences, and I don't want to see us in worse shape than we already are in. Which, IMO, is a real possibility.

 

[stonyt]

where did you hear that from Fox news ????

Typical Liberal response.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2010/04/sabotaging_the_tea_party.html

Oh and here's some racism that a Tea Party speaker had to deal with from an Obama supporter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC98rZKBOP8&feature=player_embedded

 

[londonfog]

Typical Liberal response.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2010/04/sabotaging_the_tea_party.html

Oh and here's some racism that a Tea Party speaker had to deal with from an Obama supporter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC98rZKBOP8&feature=player_embedded

dude are you serious???? I asked you how do you know ACORN members are doing this and you link me to a editoral about Jason Levin...Where is it that he is/was a member of Acorn ????

 

[Rob Roy]

Those of you who believe that are wrong. Socialized medicine is the norm in the industrialized world.

I think you're confusing socialized medicine with socialized insurance by the way. No one is asking for socialized medicine, only an option of socialized insurance which lowers cost all around.



Not true. Our debt as a % of GDP is higher than most countries with socialized health care.

And you do realize no one was advocating free health insurance based on new taxes or debt spending right? You have to pay for the public option individually. It wasn't free health insurance paid for by the government.



The collective bargaining powers provided by a government option reduces costs and if it's run like medicare is more efficient too. It is an excellent long term solution.



Not true. Blue dog democrats opposed his agenda. Without them he had no majority.



And republicans need to take a long hard look at the practical realities they are voting against instead of just voting based on ideologies. The original health insurance plan would have lowered costs for everyone. The practical reality is that republicans all voted against cheaper more reliable health insurance for everyone. They put the profits of corporations over the well beings of Americans. It's shameful they would let their thirst for power and blind obedience to an ideology over the welfare of the people.



Exactly. You have no solution, but Obama did. Conservatives made sure the problem wasn't solved with out proposing their own practical solution to the problem.



That's crap. He paid a lot of attention to the economy. The economy has improved greatly since he took office. We were headed towards a depression and he pulled us out of it. He passed the largest tax cut in American history and you still complain that he's not paying attention to the economy.

Even if Obama passed everything the republicans wanted they would just move further to the right asking for something new, and then you'd complain if Obama didn't give into that as well.



And right now we are still paying for electing Bush and obedience to the conservative fundamental opinion that the financial system should be deregulated. Bush broke the economy, not Obama.

It all depends on what you see the "problem" as and which solutions are acceptable. The problem as I see it isn't getting the "right" person in a position of power over others. It is that ANY person is put in a position of power over other people's lives, bodies and financial choices.

Think of marijuana prohibition. It's ridiculous right? Who would want somebody controlling their choices over their body? For much the same reasons who would want somebody forcing them to purchase or not purchasing something?

 

[stonyt]

dude are you serious???? I asked you how do you know ACORN members are doing this and you link me to a editoral about Jason Levin...Where is it that he is/was a member of Acorn ????

No. You asked me if I heard that on FOX news. You didn't ask how I know ACORN members were doing this. I actually did the same thing the media did and what all those that called the Tea Party racist did. I speculated. My point being, when you watch the TV, you are being lied to. FOX news, CNN whomever. If you are Liberal, you discredit FOX, Conservative, you discredit every other media outlet. I discredit them all. I can draw my own silly conclusions. I don't need some teleprompter reading talking head to tell me the "truth".

ACORN or moveon, makes no difference to me. By the way, no comment about the video?

 

[londonfog]

I deal with facts...you stated Acorn members are doing this.. I asked you did you hear it on fox..you then come show me an editorial about one man planning on doing this...NOT A GROUP LIKE ACORN OR MOVEON.....and the plan was never put in place because his picture was posted on the web and he started to receive death threats, so your statement was INCORRECT. Now about the video,,The guy speaking referred to the President as Mr. Obama.. Why can he not at least show respect for the office and address him as President Obama...Now did the other man have to add White Boy....maybe not but hey maybe he wanted to fight fire with fire..Kill my dog...I'm going to kill your cat...

 

[stonyt]

I deal with facts...you stated Acorn members are doing this.. I asked you did you hear it on fox..you then come show me an editorial about one man planning on doing this...NOT A GROUP LIKE ACORN OR MOVEON.....and the plan was never put in place because his picture was posted on the web and he started to receive death threats, so your statement was INCORRECT. Now about the video,,The guy speaking referred to the President as Mr. Obama.. Why can he not at least show respect for the office and address him as President Obama...Now did the other man have to add White Boy....maybe not but hey maybe he wanted to fight fire with fire..Kill my dog...I'm going to kill your cat...

My point exactly. Fact is, Tea Party Patriots have been labeled racist because someone yelled racial slurs at a rally. Someone else assumed it must have been one of the Tea Party and somehow it became the truth. I say it was an agitator like the one yelling "White Boy". "Maybe this or that" is not dealing in facts, it's speculation. I made the statement to prove a point. No one proved that The Tea Party proponents yelled racial slurs. There is no video of it. But because of it, now they are labeled racists. It could have just as easily been an agitator infiltrating to make it look that way. But when there is video of a Tea Party speaker being harassed with racial slurs, you make excuses for him. Fight fire with fire? I didn't hear the speaker say anything racist. The speaker has no obligation to show the office the respect. The POTUS is a public servant not royalty. Maybe the guy yelling "White boy" was a racist. That certainly would have been the assumption had the situation been reversed.

 

[Dan Kone]

I would not be so arrogant as to tell a socialist or a liberal that they are "wrong". I think we all want pretty much the same thing, we just disagree on how to acheive it. There are some very educated, very charitable individuals who are conservative or libertarian. I am no economist or political scientist but I think there are good things about both philosophies. I don't think that any half educated person wants a "true socialist" government just as they don't want a purely free market.

You said you didn't think socialized heath care couldn't be sustained here for a long period of time. But it has been. Socialized insurance has been sustained here for a long time (medicare). It also is being done around the world. So it isn't arrogant to tell you that you are wrong, it's a fact.

The problem is striking a healthy balance. What works in the rest of the industrialized world may not necessarily work here. We are not the same as Europe, trust me, I lived there for almost 2 years. There are some real problems with socialized medicine or insurance, whatever you want to call it and Pelosi/Reid and Co. simply ignore those concerns. This is a major thing and everything has untintended consequences, and I don't want to see us in worse shape than we already are in. Which, IMO, is a real possibility.

All those European countries pay significantly less for health insurance, many of them have a higher average quality of care. People here are pretty happy with medicare. There is no evidence we would be worse off with an option for socialized health care. There is a lot of evidence that suggests we would be better off.

There were very few factual reasonable arguments against it. There were a lot of people screaming hysterically about socialism.

 

[doc111]

You said you didn't think socialized heath care couldn't be sustained here for a long period of time. But it has been. Socialized insurance has been sustained here for a long time (medicare). It also is being done around the world. So it isn't arrogant to tell you that you are wrong, it's a fact.



All those European countries pay significantly less for health insurance, many of them have a higher average quality of care. People here are pretty happy with medicare. There is no evidence we would be worse off with an option for socialized health care. There is a lot of evidence that suggests we would be better off.

There were very few factual reasonable arguments against it. There were a lot of people screaming hysterically about socialism.

I believe I said it was unsustainable, not that it couldn't be sustained for a long time. I often hear the medicare argument. First off, medicare was originally meant to help subsidize the healthcare costs for senior citizens. It's sucks! It is in financial ruin and doesn't pay for a lot of shit. Unfortunately, many seniors don't make adequate plans for their retirement healthcare expenses because they mistakenly think medicare will be all they need. They are wrong and usually disappointed with it. My grandmother pays a shit ton for her meds each month and is broke because of her healthcare expenses. Needless to say she's not a huge fan. Many of the countries you are pointing to as examples of how well socialized medicine is working are in dire financial straights as well. Their systems are far from perfect and many are moving towards more privatized systems. The private system isn't perfect either. Cost is the main problem with healthcare and it's the one thing not addressed by the legislation. I hear liberals say it will save money over the long run. I don't remember what the CBO projections were but they are undoubtedly lowside estimates at best and are gonna be profoundly higher at worst. Medicare hasn't saved money, in fact it has turned out to cost much more than initially estimated.

 

[Dan Kone]

Many of the countries you are pointing to as examples of how well socialized medicine is working are in dire financial straights as well. Their systems are far from perfect and many are moving towards more privatized systems. The private system isn't perfect either. Cost is the main problem with healthcare and it's the one thing not addressed by the legislation. I hear liberals say it will save money over the long run. I don't remember what the CBO projections were but they are undoubtedly lowside estimates at best and are gonna be profoundly higher at worst Medicare hasn't saved money, in fact it has turned out to cost much more than initially estimated.

Medicare is cheaper than private insurance, it's much more efficient than private insurance, and extremely popular compared to private insurance. Those countries you are talking about all pay less than half of what we pay for insurance and many of them provide a much greater service. There is no risk of insurance companies dropping you if they decide they don't want to pay anymore and just letting you die.

There is no sound argument for our private insurance system when it comes to costs. We pay more than any people in any other country in the world per capita when it comes to health insurance.

 

[doc111]

Medicare is cheaper than private insurance, it's much more efficient than private insurance, and extremely popular compared to private insurance. Those countries you are talking about all pay less than half of what we pay for insurance and many of them provide a much greater service. There is no risk of insurance companies dropping you if they decide they don't want to pay anymore and just letting you die.

There is no sound argument for our private insurance system when it comes to costs. We pay more than any people in any other country in the world per capita when it comes to health insurance.

Of course it's cheaper! It sucks ass too! I don't know who you've been getting your info from but medicare is moste definitely not more efficient than private insurance. The problems with healthcare today are far too complicated to say this is better than that. We have problems in this country with cost. Why isn't it being addressed? We are just supposed to "take their word" that it will be cheaper. Has anything ever turned out cheaper than the government estimates? Government is far more wasteful than the private sector this is a fact! I worked in govt. for over 23 years!

 

[Dan Kone]

Of course it's cheaper! It sucks ass too! I don't know who you've been getting your info from but medicare is moste definitely not more efficient than private insurance. The problems with healthcare today are far too complicated to say this is better than that. We have problems in this country with cost. Why isn't it being addressed? We are just supposed to "take their word" that it will be cheaper. Has anything ever turned out cheaper than the government estimates? Government is far more wasteful than the private sector this is a fact! I worked in govt. for over 23 years!

The administrative costs associated with medicare about about 2-4% compared to private insurance which is over 20%, so to say private insurance is automatically more efficient just because it is run by private companies is a false assumption. And the idea medicare isn't popular is false. The vast majority of Americans prefer medicare over private medicare advantage plans.

And you're right on one point, we have problems with cost that aren't being addressed at all by either party. It's not just insurance but hospital costs are higher here than anywhere else. While forcing medicine to go non-profit would probably take care of that problem I do understand the necessity for private medical practices. I have no idea how to solve that problem.

One thing is for sure, free market theory doesn't seem to work when it comes to medicine. It's not cheaper and it's not more efficient. Just because in theory private companies should provide services cheaper than the government, that doesn't mean it works that way in reality. Health insurance is proof. They don't provide a cheap efficient product compared to government run plans here or anywhere else in the world. We pay double what most countries pay for insurance. There is nothing that can be said that changes that.

 

[NoDrama]

Under Bush, not Obama. The economy has been improving since Obama took office.

LOL really? I suppose more unemployment, more bailouts, high inflation, job losses, massive banker and mortgage fraud, Unlimited fannie mae and freddie mac money, and record foreclosures are signs of an improving economy eh? You must watch CNBC and believe that if the stock market is up then all the world is in great shape. you couldn't be any more wrong my friend. And this isn't Bush's fault, its Greenspan's fault and all the big bankers fault. Obama can't fix it, no one can fix this, the only thing we can do is start over, that will be fun I'm sure.

 

[NoDrama]

Medicare is cheaper than private insurance because it is subsidized by taxpayers. Not because the Gov't does such a great job running things.