Mind, Body and Spirit

[preoQpydDlusion]

Alright, i started up this thread because the old one is completely stagnant.
(Can You Adam And Eve It?-Toke N Talk - Page 22-Growing Marijuana)
it pretty much consisted of two guys attacking each other and random ppl jumping in from time to time to point out things that were said 3 days before.

most ppl agree that u shouldnt talk politics or religion around ppl out of respect. if u think u may be an unreasonable person when it comes to the subject of religion, or u simply arent interested in taking part in any of these discussions, by all means don waste ur time.

in the previous thread, it started by discrediting the Holy Bible right off the bat, automatically putting an 'us verse them' feeling to the discussion. nobody has the exact views as the next guy, so its ridiculous to try to prove a religion 'false.'

by starting a new thread, it will hopefully invite new posters to the discussion.

 

[preoQpydDlusion]

How come evolution is seen as contradictory to creationism?

 

[vervejunkie]

How come evolution is seen as contradictory to creationism?

short answer:
Faith.

long answer:
Most religions see Man as the manifestation of God on earth (created in His image, etc.)

In order for religion to maintain itself, there must be a "faith-line". Cross it and you're religious. Don't cross it, and you are a scientist. The literal interpretation of religious texts leads one to consider the "miracle" creation story, where Man was breathed into life by God. Personally I take this to mean that the animal man, was embodied with consciousness by the creator. This in itself takes a leap of faith to believe. It makes more sense religiously, physically, and spiritually though, than a simple wave of the ole' magic wand.

Science is concerned with observable behaviors that can be analyzed and stamped as fact. This is what science is all about. This is what science MUST be about. Religion and science can never mix well, because science cannot grasp the mechanics and subtlties of conscious and the overlying power of the universe - yet.

Really it's about personal choice. And those of us who have felt conscious awareness in ourselves and/or others can hardly deny its power and "mystic" origins. Others will take an intellectual approach with theories and experiments that may or may not prove anything. When it does, great! When it doesn't, maybe some acid and meditation will help.

FYI - Einstein was obsessed with finding the connection between science and God, especially late in his life. Unfortunately he bogged himself down in electromagnetism and the connection eluded him.

 

[7xstall]

i agree, the tongue lashings were too bloody and nothing comes from emotional scourging of that sort on either side. SKH pushed me in a lot of new directions when we discussed this issue in the politics board.

How come evolution is seen as contradictory to creationism?


because if you take the intentional creator out of the equation you replace it with randomnness, which is equal to nothingness.

why has there been an effort to omit the word "Theory" from theory of evolution for the past several decades and why has this theory survived for so long despite no evidence to support it?

 

[preoQpydDlusion]

I just dont see why the faithful cant support evolution. there are a lot of things that seem to point to it being viable, and if God is has absolute power and is all-knowing, then Hed obviously be able to create the evolutionary system as well.

why has there been an effort to omit the word "Theory" from theory of evolution for the past several decades and why has this theory survived for so long despite no evidence to support it?

theres a misconception around the phrase 'scientific theory'. scientific theory does not mean "hypothesis" as in speculation. think of music theory - definitely not a hypothesis, but a working set of rules that define a body of knowledge.

i would guess that ppl stopped calling it theory of evolution simply cuz theyr lazy. and there have been points to proving it true, but being that evolution supposedly occurs over many generations, its difficult to observe during the span of one life. so we have to rely on history to support it. the ppl in the past (remember we're talking thousands of years) havent had extremely reliable means of storing info, and even if they did, there views of the world would cloud their judgment of what is worthy to put in the history books.

 

[preoQpydDlusion]

Oh yeah, and as skunk often brought up, bacteria and viruses have been known to adapt in labs. scientists know that to be fact. thats why we have to get new shots from time to time. the flu bug evolves and the vaccination that worked on its ancestors wont work on todays flu.

 

[7xstall]

one of my uncles, a bio ph.d., does actually blend evolution into his religious views, something of an agnostic flair with a bit more hands on...quite interesting how he squirms around with certain questions.




dropping the term theory is an effort to forget that evolution is only a theory and nothing more because so many have made "evolution" their god, their religion.

further, one generation of bacteria will last 20 minutes; we have observed billions^billionth of generations of them in a lab with no evidence of evolution despite some very elaborate and creative schemes to induce, transmit and/or conduct this supposed power behind all life.

 

[7xstall]

bacteria and viruses have been known to adapt in labs.

i can adapt by cutting my hair if it is hot, did i evolve?

 

[skunkushybrid]

bacteria and viruses have been known to adapt in labs.

i can adapt by cutting my hair if it is hot, did i evolve?

No; when the world gets so hot that we can hardly take it our children will start being born with less hair, the children after even less. This is an example of evolution.

You're right preoq', the last thread was getting rather stale and I was actually starting to dread having to repeat myself again.

I really can't understand how, given what we know, people can deny evolution exists. How is it that a virus that can kill us, when dosed with small amounts our bodies will evolve an immunity to said virus? Our white blood cells will learn to recognise the threat and destroy it. Likewise the virus has the potential to do the same thing. We must evolve to survive.

The reason creation and evolution can never get along is because a god supposedly designed us in his own image... quite difficult to believe when we are made from flesh and blood, and our bodies need to die before we can go to heaven. If evolution is real, then this dying god would be a hermaphrodite mollusc.

I wouldn't have a problem with this christian religion, it's the muslim one that terrifys me. Religion is bad, belief in the unreal leads to a belief that life isn't the most important thing. Not so much with the christians, but they've certainly had their moments. I want all religion banned, and a new subliminal message pumped through our propaganda machine.

 

[preoQpydDlusion]

i can adapt by cutting my hair if it is hot, did i evolve?

lol, fair enough. maybe skunk can ellaborate more for us, but i was under the impression that vaccinations (which are simply a small amount of the bacteria to bulk up ur immune system) had to be updated because the bacteria changed. bacteria are single-celled organisms right?. if our cells were to change over a long time, we would be forced to reannylize ourselves. we'd change. thats evolution if u ask me.

i think ppl look at evolution in a wierd way. imo, theres no way that we used to be monkeys, but its possible that humans and all the other animals on this planet used to be very similar, if not the same species, a long time ago.

 

[Sanifsan]

we are all humans and we are still the the same specie...The only thing is that some people moved to warmmer places developed darker skin because as we all the know the more pigment you have in you're skin the more protected you are against the sun's harmful rays...this is specially true for the people who live along the equator and the farther people move from the equater the lighter their skins will get because the sun is less intense such as nederlands or scandanavia....people just evolve because it becomes necessary for them to adapt but that does not mean that little changes like more pigment production in the skin is evolution from nothingness...

 

[7xstall]

No; when the world gets so hot that we can hardly take it our children will start being born with less hair, the children after even less. This is an example of evolution.

ok, then africans have "evolved" dark skin to help evaporate sweat more effectively, hard curly hair to provide portable shade? nords "evolved" fair skin because the lack of harsh UV? etc, etc, etc...

as i mentioned in our other discussion, these traits are in our DNA already and our environment+mating selections will carve away at which traits thrive. they didn't come about spontaniously as evolution, if they did then we would see different DNA. any human DNA from any people group has the same info in it, the outward appearance is the result of which genes have been "chosen" by people/environment.

remember the analogy of the pig i gave? does that not give you pause? for preoq, this is a weird fact, you can release a tame pig into the wild and within 2 weeks it will look completely different, behave differently. bring it back to your farm and it will go back to being a nice pink piggy with soft hair. adaptability is built in to DNA, no need for evolution.


i've never heard of vaccinations/immunizations being updated. yes, you're giving your body a dose of damaged virus (or phage) and letting your body finish it off...your immune system will keep record of what worked. if the virus dose is too damaged your body will simply collect it as garbage and discard it, too healthy and you're getting a fever! this is why HIV is so difficult to study, it's a very fragile virus and it's a very simple structure...makes for a very very fine line in creating that "damaged dose" for immunizations. viruses currently hold the most potential for presenting that first shred of evidence for evolution, imo. they seem to almost "occur" in nature on their own and they are quite a mystery. many theories abound to account for their existence and they are THE wild card in evolutionary science. too bad they aren't even technically alive....

one thing that is updated, frequently, are antibiotics. the reason for this is the selection pressure we exert on the bacteria, again - we are chosing which ones will make it and which ones won't based on inhereted traits that happen to be relevant.

if our cells were to change over a long time, we would be forced to reannylize ourselves. we'd change. thats evolution if u ask me.

you lost me there chief, and we all started as one cell, i think i might know where you're going but not sure...please clarify. when i'm talking evolution i'm talking about the scientific kind, a spontanious genetic change that provides a survival advantage.

its possible that humans and all the other animals on this planet used to be very similar, if not the same species, a long time ago.

let me pose this question, no one ever tells me the answer...so we'll see what happens. taking life out of the picture, in the observable universe where have we ever seen a system become more complex than it was before, any system, any realm of science, anything?

if one species came into existence why oh why would it change what already works? why would a hostile, cold environment nurse this thing into "diversity" instead of dashing it back to the nice simple foolproof atoms it came from?

 

[pinkcake]

basically no one know's so believing anything anyone says is sort of strange to me.
Maybe when I die I'll find out maybe not. I just live a happy nice life.

 

[pinkcake]

dd ggwe fsdwrew swweqw fa ww rqrqe qwewee

 

[frthnkr85]

why believe in anything at all??? if science and religion don't both exist then nothing exists... evolution is great and all but as 7x said why do things change if survival is all that matters... the universe would have just stayed in a state of energy and the use for a physical plane would be mute... science is the key to understanding and i believe that but i also believe religion is a key to understanding... there are a lot of things to understand on this earth and an uncomprehendable amount in this universe... so why can't we just all agree on a standard and work towards the betterment of ourselves instead of breaking down into petty disputes...

 

[preoQpydDlusion]

basically no one know's so believing anything anyone says is sort of strange to me.
Maybe when I die I'll find out maybe not. I just live a happy nice life.

I completely agree with u pinky. but finding out ur own way of viewing the world is a natural process of growing. u can do it subconsciously, and effortlessly go with the flow, or u can do it consciously and decide for yourself how u view ur reality. but having a happy life is definitely the most important thing.

remember the analogy of the pig i gave? does that not give you pause? for preoq, this is a weird fact, you can release a tame pig into the wild and within 2 weeks it will look completely different, behave differently. bring it back to your farm and it will go back to being a nice pink piggy with soft hair. adaptability is built in to DNA, no need for evolution.

why would this be a weird fact for me specifically? was that really intentionally aimed at me? im confused. anyway, u could bring up rabbits too, they change color in different seasons. u could bring up lizards that change colors, but this stuff wont disprove evolution. even if u say 'adaptability is built in to DNA', (thats a vague, poorly worded statement, imo.) assuming that evolution doesnt happen because of that is absurd.

one thing that is updated, frequently, are antibiotics. the reason for this is the selection pressure we exert on the bacteria, again - we are chosing which ones will make it and which ones won't based on inhereted traits that happen to be relevant.

ill be honest, i have no idea what ur talkin about. im not even stoned, and that seems like a foreign language. maybe this was based on something i missed in a previous post?

you lost me there chief, and we all started as one cell, i think i might know where you're going but not sure...please clarify. when i'm talking evolution i'm talking about the scientific kind, a spontanious genetic change that provides a survival advantage.

to be technical, i started as two cells, but w/e. i was pretty much saying that if bacteria can evolve, so can we. im quite ignorant when it comes to microbiology, so ill withdrawal any statement ive made based on it. guess this is what i get for listening to Skunk.

let me pose this question, no one ever tells me the answer...so we'll see what happens. taking life out of the picture, in the observable universe where have we ever seen a system become more complex than it was before, any system, any realm of science, anything?

if one species came into existence why oh why would it change what already works? why would a hostile, cold environment nurse this thing into "diversity" instead of dashing it back to the nice simple foolproof atoms it came from?

i dont know what ur getting at. u seem to have a large vocabulary, so u might be a smart dude so ill assume ur not a dumbass. but are u asking if a school of thought has grown by itself?

 

[skunkushybrid]

We must ask these questions, and we must have these petty disputes.

I understand 7x's surmission that the ability to evolve is built into our dna: well it would have to be, wouldn't it? I should change the word built, but it's getting on now and I have kids.

Antibiotics are updated all the time, true. They are updated because germs evolve to better survive the harsher environment.

If we are searching for answers to life, we must look at it on the minutest level. Cells can and do mutate, which is why we all have individual dna. Sorry, much more to say but time is against me.

btw, apologies frth... I take things the wrong way sometimes.

 

[frthnkr85]

no prob skunk we all get fired up sometimes when we are discussing these things in fact that is what pushes people intellectually into new lines of thought... natural selection is a part of what darwain believed also however that is not neccesarily true... look at humans for instance... in america the able take care of those that are unable to take care of themselves... think of it this way if the world was still covered with trees and everyone had to survive for themselves you know there are people that would be toast... there are plenty of people and animals alive today that if natural selection was right shouldn't be here... the biggest, strongest, and smartest most often survive and prosper however this is not always true... yet another part of evolution proven wrong... i'm still gonna say not evolution but adaption... people and animals adapt over a period of time... their physical traits can change because our dna allows for that over a period of time... but to change from nothing to something... or from one creature to another... with completely different physical makeup... thats rediculous to say the least...

 

[skunkushybrid]

but to change from nothing to something... or from one creature to another... with completely different physical makeup... thats rediculous to say the least...

caterpillers.

 

[frthnkr85]

thats a good one for changing... you got me there... but still not something from nothing the metamorphisis of a catepillar is still a physical change nothing more... it is an adaption to the environment... they grow wings because that makes them more likely to survive... it is an adaption of the catepillar over time but the catepillar is still there just with wings... they had no choice but to grow wings but they are insects so???