Jack Herer's CCHH 2012 Initiative: www.youthfederation.com/cchhi2012.html

[Ernst]

I like your drive Ernst!

Well that is refreshing to read..

The last post I remember with such passion was something of the FU for suggesting prop-19 was a new form of prohibition with the property ownership requirement and the 5x5 rule if the jurisdiction allowed it and didn't tax it at $27,000 a year for the 5x5.

So hey.. I was born in 1961.. i am a true Child of the 60's. I saw the hippies on the roof in Denver.. Can remember the first time I saw a "let it Be" album in the shop window with a sign saying we love you Beatles please don't go!

So I am one who should be able to stand up and speak. I have lived in the times and I am still breathing.

So what does this old guy say?

We have them over the barrel and we don't know it. I really believe that if we swing way left.. Focus on a base of simple and clear rights for our Citizens we will pass an initiative in 2012.

"Really - Really"

If we try and compromise before we have an initiative, try to establish drug policy with it or try and define an industry while offering crumbs of freedom like 5x5 if you own property or have permission we will once again face defeat.

Make it simple so that all can understand without a lawyer or Fox news being the source of information on it and print in Spanish and bring all our Canna-Brothers and Sisters in.. We have a good chance.

So yeah some may say.. Oh we lost and now.. Boo-Whooo but i say I never liked prop-19 anyway and lets keep moving on.

Donate to MPP, NORML and the ACLU we still have the advantage if we don't wait for some Daddy Canna-Bucks to save us.

I see it as we have the No's over a barrel and that no amount of tweeking Prop-19 will make it fly a third time.
Really by 2012 we will have two more yes voting generations so let us make it 18+ to get them to make the effort!

Make legalizing better than just living the afraid in the shade life like you and I did and like they learned to do. Fear is the only tool that works in the war against cannabis.. Don't be a Tool don't propagate the fear stand up and legalize in 2012 for the people and by the people is how it should be advertised. Forget some rich guy Wallstreet type.. If we raise the capital and we together support and campaign we can and will have the Canna-laws we fight for.

And Thanks for the complement!

I appreciate the feedback



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Edit Time is on Our Side.. Yes it is! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKzh0_5JxqA Enjoy.. I am.. C-ya later

 

[Dan Kone]

I didn't say that. Street dealing anything is unacceptable yes? Why should allowing me to trade a pound with you or clones or seeds be a crime?

And why is it so unacceptable to sell your pound or clones in a store or farmer's market as apposed to out of your house?

So it is not me that is suggesting street dealing to be legal nor am I saying we should change the no substance on schools grounds rules..

Yet under your plan it's perfectly legal for highschool kids to grow bud and sell it. Completely irresponsible. Is that really the image we want to project?

Perhaps that is true but we must fight for what we want and not be capitulating to fear.

Capitulating to fear and being reasonable are not the same thing. I completely support the rights of adults to grow, purchase, and consume cannabis. I don't think it should be every person's right to sell bud out of their house. I think that violates the rights of everyone else living in that neighborhood.

Things will never change until we change them. We must change the law and I am advocating rights for citizens first..

You're not doing that. You're advocating for "rights" of one group of citizens and giving the finger to everyone else. Are non-smokers somehow less worthy of their rights?

Forget business they have friends.

Big mistake.

The difference is if it was no crime would you use the room in your house for living or gardening?

Under your proposal what stops me from opening up an unregulated grow house next to a school and wholesaling pounds out of it? The IRS couldn't prove anything unless I was depositing the money.

If it was legal to grow Cannabis and sell it with a business license or it was a crime to sell it with out which will you choose?

Those are the same thing you just don't know it because you don't understand business.

Business licenses are issued by cities and aren't even required in a lot of cases. Try to apply for a cannabis related business license and see what happens. Rejected every time unless you have gained the support of your city counsel in advance.

What you should want is for everyone who files for articles or incorporation and a sellers permit to be able to open a cannabis business. That is done at the state level and is rubber stamped. As long as your paperwork is filled out correctly you get approved.

but if you don't report the income you face income tax issues but if you pay the taxes you are freeman.

If it's cash how does the IRS know?

This is not about business this to be about rights for individuals; that I might gift of a basket of veggies and herbs to friends shouldn't be a crime. That my buddy wants to have a pound of my "XYZ" and in exchange is giving me "ABC" that shouldn't be a crime!

ok, but you're advocating being able to sell a pound to a friend and have that not be a crime. That pound is more than most people's pay checks. You're legalizing black market dealing.

ust like a case of Home Brew shared shouldn't be a crime.

Sure, it you're talking about inviting your friends over for a beer or a smoke I've got no problem with that. But if you're talking about making it legal to brew kegs and sell them out of your house to your friends that's different.

mostly i will want to putter around breeding not-for-profit and need that 99 to grow things out. We all need that 99 to grow things out.

Sure, but you can also grow 99 pounds with that a couple times a year. That's high 6 figures. That's a lot of gouda. I'm fine with people doing that, but they should be able to do it under a legal business instead of out of their house.

I make my own seeds. I understand why a large selection process to choose moms is important. A sq ft limit instead of a plant limit allows people to do that without growing 99 pounds for "personal" use.

Well we all need to see and think about what we will support next. It's fine and dandy to promote a position. Be us Hot or Cold not luke warm.. No Fence sitters tossing rocks.

I wouldn't sit on the fence if you were promoting something reasonable. But you're not. I'll toss my rocks until that changes.

 

[Ernst]

I will try and satisfy but let's start using color so i can get through it easier.. I'm as old as the President you know.

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Originally Posted by Ernst
I didn't say that. Street dealing anything is unacceptable yes? Why should allowing me to trade a pound with you or clones or seeds be a crime?



And why is it so unacceptable to sell your pound or clones in a store or farmer's market as opposed to out of your house?

My Bad I almost missed this one.. There are already laws in place that define zoning and there are laws to deal with violations. Running a business out of residential requires some rules I am sure. Check you local Zoning agency for more info..


So it is not me that is suggesting street dealing to be legal nor am I saying we should change the no substance on schools grounds rules..


Yet under your plan it's perfectly legal for highschool kids to grow bud and sell it. Completely irresponsible. Is that really the image we want to project?

Again see the list below we already have laws in place for no Substances in School zones as well as other permitted in other places behaviour being banned in school zones.


Perhaps that is true but we must fight for what we want and not be capitulating to fear.


Capitulating to fear and being reasonable are not the same thing. I completely support the rights of adults to grow, purchase, and consume cannabis. I don't think it should be every person's right to sell bud out of their house. I think that violates the rights of everyone else living in that neighborhood.

Things will never change until we change them. We must change the law and I am advocating rights for citizens first..


You're not doing that. You're advocating for "rights" of one group of citizens and giving the finger to everyone else. Are non-smokers somehow less worthy of their rights?

Advocating rights to human beings yes I am. People can have businesses yes? I mean Human beings have businesses and business is regulated and licensed and such? So what is the issue here?
If it is legal for people it's legal for business right? What is your point?

I fail to get the gravity of this is a logical legal sense.

Yes I am in favor of people having all the rights I suggest and I am willing to support more. We have to start someplace and starting with big business like prop-19 failed so lets try the people this time!



Forget business they have friends.




Big mistake.

The difference is if it was no crime would you use the room in your house for living or gardening?


Under your proposal what stops me from opening up an unregulated grow house next to a school and wholesaling pounds out of it? The IRS couldn't prove anything unless I was depositing the money.

If it was legal to grow Cannabis and sell it with a business license or it was a crime to sell it with out which will you choose?


Those are the same thing you just don't know it because you don't understand business.

Business licenses are issued by cities and aren't even required in a lot of cases. Try to apply for a cannabis related business license and see what happens. Rejected every time unless you have gained the support of your city counsel in advance.

What you should want is for everyone who files for articles or incorporation and a sellers permit to be able to open a cannabis business. That is done at the state level and is rubber stamped. As long as your paperwork is filled out correctly you get approved.

but if you don't report the income you face income tax issues but if you pay the taxes you are freeman.


If it's cash how does the IRS know?

Reply Color : See Below before reading replies as it was the order of posting in such a complex structure of conversation but I feel the color coding will help with this since I must keep parity or our Legalization Train could get derailed all too soon. We must bring the Pro's and Anti's of the possible Yes people into the fold : Amen!

-- Okay The simple answer to all your positions is this: There are laws already in place to deal with those situations. That which changes is that Cannabis is legal in the State of California to grow have and trade with other Californians.

The order of topics I perceive from that red coloured paragraph are:
1. What Stops you from a grow op by a school.
2. It's okay to grow bud if you are 18 :
3. is it okay to be 18 and sell at high-school
4 Taxes.. and illegal grow ops
5. Businesses licences are available
6. More tax questions.

--- Second reply : I am a layman but it seems simple enough to me that is I grow and sell 24/7 that is not a safe thing if I expect to escape Tax and Licensing charges .
However with these things aside these do not relate to individual rights as i suggest them
Sale is transfer if I am not mistaken such as If I hand a narcotics officer a joint it is as much a sale as if he hands me back $5 isn't it?
I would suggest that if the situation is honest and I trade and that trade does not persist in a way that is analogous with business that I and you should be allowed to exchange. That is the allow sales means to me.
If I want your White Widow and you need tires for your car i might feel just fine in handing money to you in exchange. That is what I mean by Sales. It shouldn't be illegal.
And again I point out that there are laws already in place to catch folks and take their wealth and liberty away. We don't need any additional Felonies added to this Initiative if we can avoid it at all costs.

I f I failed to see your point on the first paragraph I welcome a reply.




This is not about business this to be about rights for individuals; that I might gift of a basket of veggies and herbs to friends shouldn't be a crime. That my buddy wants to have a pound of my "XYZ" and in exchange is giving me "ABC" that shouldn't be a crime!


ok, but you're advocating being able to sell a pound to a friend and have that not be a crime. That pound is more than most people's pay checks. You're legalizing black market dealing.

ust like a case of Home Brew shared shouldn't be a crime.


Sure, it you're talking about inviting your friends over for a beer or a smoke I've got no problem with that. But if you're talking about making it legal to brew kegs and sell them out of your house to your friends that's different.

We already have black Market dealing and it has sustained part of our State for many years after the Timber industry failed and other industry has also failed in California. Perhaps allowing us all 99 isn't a bad idea if things get worse so on that .. i want to bring them and all of us into the fold. this is the Good Ship California and I love her. Perhaps some will have to take a cut but overall we do more good than bad and we need all our Canna-People to vote yes so asking them to drop dead will not get that vote count is the wrong thing so if we legalize we have to accept their 99 and don't forget that I propose a Medical Bill of Rights too so we would be opening up counties that have been closed by hate and discrimination.
.
As I wrote in the first reply: We have laws for violations in trade and taxes. the best thing is to offer a legal way and encourage a well established industry the chance to be doubly legal. Not only be in a privileged area of the State but to also be a part of the State on Legalized cannabis.
And yes i really am talking about friends and sharing. Just like canned peached or home made wine. Holiday gifts! Splitting a hash pressing with friends.. yes!!!
On that list i would say that Grandpa will entertain with stories of growing the family strain and how it was created for the umtheenth time.

There is a difference between the Industry and the society even with weed.
We are talking basic rights for people not corporations. Let the central regulatory agency deal with industry and let the current laws deal with tax dodgers and exporters to other States.. Take your chances if you dare.. they will have more room in prison when the rest of us are free!
Again no new felonies are needed.


mostly i will want to putter around breeding not-for-profit and need that 99 to grow things out. We all need that 99 to grow things out.




Sure, but you can also grow 99 pounds with that a couple times a year. That's high 6 figures. That's a lot of gouda. I'm fine with people doing that, but they should be able to do it under a legal business instead of out of their house.

There it is: You are anti-Social! LOL Got ya!

You can have all the business you can attract and if you run a good business that I like I may buy your product or services.

Now if you are saying that it must be as close to Illegal for the people while being as legal as possible for you like prop 19 did then.. You are on the losing side of that argument already.
oh Greed will be the Lure just not Greed for any profitizintg overseer.

There is problem with folks want the benefit if illegality while sitting on the fence ready to run anyway they can to make a buck off of misery.
Sure folks do not want a simple plant to be more to others than it is to them..
So the answer is make it equal for all. That is the only way.

Yes right now we have the Emerald Triangle and Oakland doing PR to sell there export of Medical Cannabis.. Yes we are now looking at some folks getting insanely rich because prop 19 failed but Cannabis is at it's all time high of acceptance even envy if you consider Jorge's Video of late
,
But we are still here because it is illegal..
Canna-Justice for all!

I don't know about you but being in favor of the rest of use going to prison or losing our property and homes just so some can get insanely wealthy is way evil wrong in my book.


I make my own seeds. I understand why a large selection process to choose moms is important. A sq ft limit instead of a plant limit allows people to do that without growing 99 pounds for "personal" use.

Again this is a complaint about Canna-Freedom.. You are against it.

Well we all need to see and think about what we will support next. It's fine and dandy to promote a position. Be us Hot or Cold not luke warm.. No Fence sitters tossing rocks.


I wouldn't sit on the fence if you were promoting something reasonable. But you're not. I'll toss my rocks until that changes.

It is true I am a layman. It is true this is just one citizen standing up however the point of not tossing rocks is that it is a cop out. That is all.

Share your vision. i am paying the bill.. Help make 2012 happen.

With that said: How about we do a little more than find fault assign blame and then fade away getting nothing done like always on these sites?
It's old.

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I will change color and go back and fill in. Thanks for participating.
​

-------------------------------

Final comment.

I do see you are not in favor of Legalizing just in favor of making money.



Thanks for the challenging conversation. You are so welcome to people California2012 I don't mind your opinion but in the future you can save us both time just saying you are against legalizing.

Decriminalizing for some and major profits for some you say yes but no Legalizing for us all.

However to keep the Prohibition prices and keep the people down, I find You and I are on different sides of the fence.

Ernst

 

[Ernst]

Perhaps it really does boil down to are we in favor of Legalizing with at least these 5 things
1. 18+
2. Private sales between Ca to Ca residents
3. Medical Bill of rights establishing worker protections and equality in each of the almost 600 jurisdictions equally.
4 One Central regulatory authority for the whole state over Cannabis.
5. no limit on plant numbers with the minimum and the suggested safe maximum of 99 because of federal rules on plant count and serious felonies involving Cannabis.

We have fear and loathing in Canna-Fornia and some are making Bank ( Millions ) while others do not have a dispensary in their county or cannot get a job testing positive for medical use.

I say that Prop 215 passed because it was simple to understand and it was for the people.
I believe this is the best way to pass Legalization in 2012. We already know that no mater what the haters will find ways to diminish people's rights like they do over Medical use because we have no medical bill of rights. At least not yet.

Where do you the Reader of these words stand on this? Post a comment!

 

[Matt Rize]

Time to polarize and see if we can swing way left.
Is anyone against 99 plants per-adult here?
Is anyone against Job protections against employment discriminations because of smoking weed three days ago?
Is anyone against private trade?
is anyone against one central regulatory authority over "Dry Counties?"
is anyone against including our 18+ Sons and Daughters in the get out of jail free program called legalizing?
Lets hear it!
Come out of the cannabis closet!

to begin, your whole "for or against" ideology is flawed, but we can agree to disagree and i'll try to answer.
99 plant - yeah, that's too much, not for me, but for the public. I think this number is scary to the majority. So in that aspect, I am against it.
the job thing - yeah, business get to discriminate like that unfortunately. we don't get to tell them what to do. some work places are alcohol free employees only.
private trade: of course not, but it needs to be regulated because the greedy folk will eff it up for everyone. gotta be rules bro.
not sure how to answer the dry counties one, hoping there are none
18 is no bueno wey, high school mang. 19 much easier to swallow. 21 even easier.


i just read your post. bro, breeder will need permits. you can't let people do these big time scenes because its scary as hell to people who don't realize that 5,000 plants for breeding is normal

 

[Dan Kone]

lol Ernst. I'm fully in favor of legalization, the freedom for everyone to grow enough bud for personal use without a permit, and the freedom for those who do want to make a living off of cannabis to be able to do so. But I also see what you're promoting. It's pretty transparent. If I can see through it in 30 seconds, so can people who are not in favor of legalization and they'll run TV ads with highschool seniors dealing pot at elementary schools. If this non-sense actually made the ballot you'd lose any vote in a massive landslide and set legalization back years.

You're clearly advocating legal unregulated commercial cannabis. You also want to allow highschool kids to be able to participate in that. That is borderline insane.

Just because I don't support this does not mean I'm being greedy, in favor of people thrown in jail for growing, or supporting prohibition. I'm not and I'd like you to stop implying I am. I support everyone being able to grow legally for personal use and allowing everyone to start their own legal cannabis business if they want to compete in the market. What I'm saying is very reasonable and it is not in any way supporting prohibition.

What I'm describing is not an exclusive system that discriminates against everyone but the rich. It is a free market system that would allow everyone who wants to compete a chance. It also would allow plenty of personal freedom for those who choose to not participate in the commercial process and grow their own instead. I'm not exactly harry anslinger nor am I Richard Lee.

And yes, we are on opposite sides of the fence. I want a reasonable responsible system that makes California a better place for everyone. You want what is best for you and tell everyone else to drop dead.

 

[beardo]

That is the great thing about the California voter initiative process it could happen.most politicians wont support full legalization and big buisness won't support full legalization. I truly believe prop 19 would have passes if not for those who read the bill and found flaws and felt the obligation to discuss the questional impact of the bill. People wanted to vote for legalization and that is how the pro 19 side portrayed the prop. I think it was only defeated because those who saw fault in the bill combined with conservitive voters created a slight majority. If every marijuana supporter had a one page or even better 2 or 3 paragraph bill that anyone with a grade school education could quickly read and clearly understand I think we could pass it. Yes taxes create support because you are somehow lead to believe this will help you. People think if we tax marijuana that taxes of non users will decrease or that services will increase. By creating regulations you gain buisness support because if you need to have permits and licences and pay taxes that creates an investment oportunity. I think a true legalization would lose some support but gain much more - if everyone could just say read this....it says Cannabis is not illegal or prohibited. - Vote for it please even if you don't use cannabis. It will save money on enforcement create job opportunities create revenue increase tourism. then if necessary after it has been passed cities could pass laws addressing any problems that arise. Imagine if you were in a room with 10 people other than yourself and you had to convince at least 5 of them that marijuana shouldn't be illegal- thats all it is we can get it done dont let them convince you otherwise. their propaganda machine wants you to believe that we need to make concessions just like they wanted people to believe 19 was legalization.

what do you think about my idea of a very short bill that only covers the subject of legalization?

 

[Dan Kone]

what do you think about my idea of a very short bill that only covers the subject of legalization?

I'd like it as long as it covers our asses enough for the state assembly or law enforcement not to fuck us. The problem with a short bill is it allows the assembly to use their imaginations to come up with new laws that screw us over. I'm all for a bill that is more simply written than prop 19 though.

 

[Matt Rize]

And yes, we are on opposite sides of the fence. I want a reasonable responsible system that makes California a better place for everyone. You want what is best for you and tell everyone else to drop dead.

I think I'm with Dan, and this just shows how important compromise is. We practically live on RIU, yet still want moderate regulations.
It is your (ernst) attitude that is divisive and not needed. Why so uncompromising? My lawyer said "Matt, don't go over 2,000 watts if you want me to defend you." I said okay. Damn, gotta work WITH the system that is in place, not destroy it and create something new.

 

[Matt Rize]

I'd like it as long as it covers our asses enough for the state assembly or law enforcement not to fuck us. The problem with a short bill is it allows the assembly to use their imaginations to come up with new laws that screw us over. I'm all for a bill that is more simply written than prop 19 though.

KISS only works in gardening. Simple and politics just means loopholes. That's the problem. To have a cohesive bill, it must be longer than dragonfly, or other idiots, are capable of reading in one sitting.

 

[Dan Kone]

I think I'm with Dan, and this just shows how important compromise is. We practically live on RIU, yet still want moderate regulations.

And there is no reason we couldn't have a law that allows for more personal freedom, equal opportunity in business, and forms a mutually beneficial relationship with the people of California.

I just don't see a situation where turning the majority of voters in California into our enemy being productive.

 

[Ernst]

I don't see how legalization stops what you are saying from happening.
Legalization may not form the law around those needs but that is what happens with justice and democracy

Why would the 5 things stop what you want?

Lets try that.

 

[Ernst]

I need to swing left from all I can tell of my perceived situation in the USA in general.
I'm just not comfortable with compromising so soon.

Perhaps some permit process can monitor large scale grows. We have them now in California.
Under legalization the regulatory board can define how the 99 plants is accessed.
There may be a requirement to register above a certain amount but no the crime if you do.
That would help our law enforcement focus on violators and again no new felonies are needed and we save on law enforcement costs if they know where to look and not to look..

Works for me.

So how about rights to do 99 but requirements to register implemented by the board?
I mean if it is as simple as getting a permit to be protected from a raid I am all for that..
Not a problem for me.

We are going to have illegal grows we have them now in our forests. I doubt that will go away. That our people can and have no reason not to obtain a large grow permit we can find the violators faster.
I know my focus is fading as I tire but it is possible to have 99 and not need or use 99 but if you are and doing it every year you had better have you ass covered with a business license or a permit I'd say.

And the right to 99 is still there.

I mean the taxes from cannabis can pay salaries for officers to do the protecting and people have jobs in businesses plus home gardeners can grow and breed all they want why is that bad?
If adding new jobs of inspectors and such won't be a drain on the State and if the funds come from all those permits and taxes generated.
Reducing the unemployment by creating Canna-Jobs for State level workers is also a good thing!
The retirement fund can use a boost!

----\



I don't know a whole lot but farmers could also grow hemp and that is way more than 99 plants.
It does become agricultural at some point but can also be communal.
So the right is independent of actual reality but it can be there!

That is what this failing focus thinks.. G-Night.. Will come and fight the good fight tomorrow!

 

[Dan Kone]

I don't see how legalization stops what you are saying from happening.
Legalization may not form the law around those needs but that is what happens with justice and democracy

Again, I'm not against legalization. What you are describing goes way beyond legalization.

Why would the 5 things stop what you want?

Lets try that

It will piss off every non-smoker and every parent in California. You aren't talking about legalizing just for personal use and allowing people to purchase it in stores, you're talking about allowing people to start up unregulated black market businesses out of their houses and even more insane allowing highschool kids to legally participate in that. You're pretending that allowing people to grow +100 pounds of bud out of their house per year is somehow "personal use". EVERYONE can see right through that even people who don't have a clue about growing.

Do you not understand why parents would be pissed off at a law that allows highschool kids to grow and sell bud out of their house? You really don't see a problem with that?

 

[Dan Kone]

I need to swing left from all I can tell of my perceived situation in the USA in general.
I'm just not comfortable with compromising so soon.

Perhaps some permit process can monitor large scale grows. We have them now in California.
Under legalization the regulatory board can define how the 99 plants is accessed.
There may be a requirement to register above a certain amount but no the crime if you do.
That would help our law enforcement focus on violators and again no new felonies are needed and we save on law enforcement costs if they know where to look and not to look..

Works for me.

So how about rights to do 99 but requirements to register implemented by the board?
I mean if it is as simple as getting a permit to be protected from a raid I am all for that..
Not a problem for me.

We are going to have illegal grows we have them now in our forests. I doubt that will go away. That our people can and have no reason not to obtain a large grow permit we can find the violators faster.
I know my focus is fading as I tire but it is possible to have 99 and not need or use 99 but if you are and doing it every year you had better have you ass covered with a business license or a permit I'd say.

And the right to 99 is still there.

So now you're going to make me register a garden for personal use with the government and invite law enforcement into my house to inspect my garden

We clearly have very different ideas of what freedom and ending prohibition are.

This is a simple problem that can be fixed by a sq ft limit. We don't need a plant limit if we have that. Growing 99 plants in 50-100 sq ft isn't that much different yield wise than growing 30 in the same place. Maybe you get in an extra cycle per year, but that's not a big deal.

 

[Matt Rize]

I just want to thank everyone for the great posts. I have to go back and reread some more because there is a lot of worthwhile info here.
Just wanted to add (ernst) that those colored texts are annoying (sorry but it is hard to read for me).

Dan- I think anyone who sells their herb in commercial markets should be inspected, consumer safety just like any food or meds. But the small farmers that dont use commercial outlets should not be forced to allow inspections. This is the current food model, and it applies to ganja IMO.

When it comes to breeding, that is a tough issue. IMO we should be allowed 1000s of plants for breeding. But what stops flower growers from pretending to be breeders? So a commercial (say over 100 plants) permit for breeding will at least form some accountability. The issue them becomes a list exists of anyone over 99, which the fed could use to pick easy targets.

 

[Ernst]

Again, I'm not against legalization. What you are describing goes way beyond legalization.



It will piss off every non-smoker and every parent in California. You aren't talking about legalizing just for personal use and allowing people to purchase it in stores, you're talking about allowing people to start up unregulated black market businesses out of their houses and even more insane allowing highschool kids to legally participate in that. You're pretending that allowing people to grow +100 pounds of bud out of their house per year is somehow "personal use". EVERYONE can see right through that even people who don't have a clue about growing.

Do you not understand why parents would be pissed off at a law that allows highschool kids to grow and sell bud out of their house? You really don't see a problem with that?

No I am not doing as you charge.

We are not at the old boring point of violence once again are we?.

Please rephrase you debate.

I know when my debater has run out of any logical response when I accusations.

-------------------

The 5 things do not authorize black-market in fact it contains a central regulatory agency who will make their funding off the legal enterprises so looking for illegal ones should be part of their mission. Besides we know our law enforcement industry will want customers. Again no new felonies are required.

As for regulation of business we already have those kinds of agencies. They do prosecute illegal enterprises.

The 5 things do not authorize anyone to "deal" drugs in school. We already have laws in place for this.

The 5 things makes it equal for all with some plant limit that keeps the feds off our backs and that seems to be 99. There will be places people can live where 99 plants can be grown and places that it is not practice to do so but it is important that all our people have equal rights to do so.

So again the 5 things do not authorise any illegal activities related to school zones and the 5 things do not authorise activities that zoning does not permit.
What the 5 things does do is grant the right to grow as many plants as possible with a suggested 99 as the safe maximum.

Now if you can prove your charges I am willing to read your words.
However this is sort of like the same droll violence we have seen. Folks find fault, place blame, point a finger then fade away getting nothing done.
Please stop the violence.
Try peace and love and let us legalize!

Ernst

 

[beardo]

The 5 things do not authorize black-market in fact it contains a central regulatory agency who will make their funding off the legal enterprises so looking for illegal ones should be part of their mission. Besides we know our law enforcement industry will want customers. Again no new felonies are required.

As for regulation of business we already have those kinds of agencies. They do prosecute illegal enterprises.

The 5 things do not authorize anyone to "deal" drugs in school. We already have laws in place for this.

The 5 things makes it equal for all with some plant limit that keeps the feds off our backs and that seems to be 99. There will be places people can live where 99 plants can be grown and places that it is not practice to do so but it is important that all our people have equal rights to do so.

So again the 5 things do not authorise any illegal activities related to school zones and the 5 things do not authorise activities that zoning does not permit.
What the 5 things does do is grant the right to grow as many plants as possible with a suggested 99 as the safe maximum.

Now if you can prove your charges I am willing to read your words.
However this is sort of like the same droll violence we have seen. Folks find fault, place blame, point a finger then fade away getting nothing done.
Please stop the violence.
Try peace and love and let us legalize!

Ernst

This is pretty much what I was touching on in an earlier post I would be for a very straight forward legalization and believe we could count on current laws regarding school zones and zoning laws for comercial buisness and buisness licences to keep it reasonable and if any unforseen problems arise-Like maybe Diesel genorators being banned as a power source or whatever. we could address it with a vote on regulation

 

[Ernst]

So now you're going to make me register a garden for personal use with the government and invite law enforcement into my house to inspect my garden

We clearly have very different ideas of what freedom and ending prohibition are.

This is a simple problem that can be fixed by a sq ft limit. We don't need a plant limit if we have that. Growing 99 plants in 50-100 sq ft isn't that much different yield wise than growing 30 in the same place. Maybe you get in an extra cycle per year, but that's not a big deal.

Now how can we have it both ways?

Even with a sq ft someone has to come and check. Also if you have one outside that is over the limit that is probable cause to search your house.

It is rather amusing that Pro-Cannabis people want to have some restriction and don't want anyone checking up on them!

I would leave the regulatory tasks to the State Regulatory commission. I am a simple medical person.

It was asked or suggested that 99 plant grows would be horrid and I replied that perhaps it may be required to obtain a permit for some count over some limit as a working solution.
That is just fine to me! Find to me if the 99 plant right is law for all.

We and the regulatory commission can decide how to manage things. Folks love to regulate stuff and we have laws for those things already.

The Base that is important is that we have the right to grow as much as we want and in this case 99 is a Federal line in the sand but how that can be applied is alwasy a mater of local.

So Are you people for legalized Cannabis or are you people for Decriminalization.

Legal == 99+ Decriminalized means 5x5.. It is that simple.

Once we all have cannabis it becomes common. Who is really going to be impressed with a pound of cannabis when anyone or everyone has a pound of cannabis.
People will get bored and move on.

That is a good thing!

After all Cannabis is a safe substance.. Safer than alcohol right?

So the 5 thing as undefeated so far.

1. 18+ Cannabis is legal.
2. A central regulatory agency for the State on Cannabis ( hire back State workers with taxes and fees from legal licensing ) ( Shore up the Retirement fund for all State workers )
3. Private sales/trade from Ca Residents to CA residents ( doesn't mean black market is allowed just that I may trade with you )
4. Medical Bill of rights ( making Canna-Equality the same in all counties of the State )
5. No limit on space or plants with a suggested 99 limit to avoid federal issues.

So yes I am really liberal. Very left wing..

I remind everyone that Prop 19 didn't get the complete canna-vote and what the 5 things suggest is real Canna-Freedom!

The goal of the 5 things is to establish rights for citizens. Business is the domain of State regulatory agencies !!! I am saying legalize for the people and let the State implement business!
You guys are trying to see this a a business deal.. The 5 things isn't about business! It is about individuals.

that is what I am saying that prop-215 was simple and for the people and it passed years ago with over 60% if I remember right.
We will pass a proposition in 2012 if we focus on people and forget business with this.

One thing at a time!

Do you all get it?

Separate the business concepts from the individual rights in you mind and look at the 5 things.

if you personally want to limit yourself to a square footage no one is going to stop you.

If a citizen want to not grow cannabis because they don't approve. No one is going to stop them and if a parent wants to keep their kids off drugs no one is going to stop them.

When it comes to running a business we have agencies that have to deal with that everyday. Nothing new there

legalizing Cannabis for CA Citizens make that plant legal is all.

We must avoid trying to establish the Canna-Industry with 2012. We must grant rights to people and let the State and federal Government deal with that.

if we want to track large grows with a permit system I am all for that! If I can obtain a Horticultural permit and when the inspectors come by see I am doing as I say we can spend the time chatting about the garden rather than reading me my rights!

So what seems to be confusing for you guys is the idea that 2012 should be about the people and forget passing laws for business rights.
Let the State and Feds work that out because that is their job and let us legalize for people!

the 5 things grand a basic set of rights for people that I like. that I call legalization, that is rather nice considering how many are punished in some way over cannabis every s7 seconds in the USA.

Legalize for the people first. make the Initiative simple so the voter can read and decide without CNN, Fox of the Federal Government telling them what it means.
Making it simple and for the people is basic.


My point is the 5 things are simple. Simple like prop 215 was and for the people.

 

[Ernst]

And there is no reason we couldn't have a law that allows for more personal freedom, equal opportunity in business, and forms a mutually beneficial relationship with the people of California.

I just don't see a situation where turning the majority of voters in California into our enemy being productive.

The only successful Cannabis Initiative was prop 215. let us do like that. Legalize for the people with the 5 things.
let the regulatory agency that is creating jobs to be paid for with the Canna-fees and such take care of monitoring.

On thing they could do is require permits for over some level of plant count of square footage but it will be legal to have 99 plants is the point.

Forget trying to merge business into this be like prop 215 and let the State iron out the business aspects.

Adding business to 2012 is a dead weight that will sink us like Prop-19 II did!

People first.. keep it simple grant rights to people this time!
The 5 things are a good list!