Jack Herer's CCHH 2012 Initiative: www.youthfederation.com/cchhi2012.html

[Dan Kone]

Ok. You still want highschool kids to be able to grow and buy cannabis right? That's just bad news. How can you not see that this will lose and chance of passing? Why is it so important that highschool kids must have the right to possess cannabis? Is waiting until they graduate really so bad?

Will you remind me why it should be everyone's right to turn their residential home into a grow house capable of producing over 100 pounds per year? I'm all for letting people have the right to grow as much as they can possibly use themselves at home, but why enable people to legally turn their entire house into a grow house? I understand why you think people should be able to grow 99 plants, and while I think that number will scare off voters it could still be ok. There is nothing you've said so far that explains why there should be no restrictions on grow space. Without exception, anyone growing 2000 sq ft of cannabis is doing so for commercial purposes. But you think they should be able to grow 2000sq ft for "personal use" in residential areas? Regardless of if that is your intention or not what you are proposing does allow for that.

Why are you insisting on creating something the majority of Californians will not want? What's so bad about having legalization that everyone in the community has a reason to support?

 

[Ernst]

I just want to thank everyone for the great posts. I have to go back and reread some more because there is a lot of worthwhile info here.
Just wanted to add (ernst) that those colored texts are annoying (sorry but it is hard to read for me).

Dan- I think anyone who sells their herb in commercial markets should be inspected, consumer safety just like any food or meds. But the small farmers that dont use commercial outlets should not be forced to allow inspections. This is the current food model, and it applies to ganja IMO.

When it comes to breeding, that is a tough issue. IMO we should be allowed 1000s of plants for breeding. But what stops flower growers from pretending to be breeders? So a commercial (say over 100 plants) permit for breeding will at least form some accountability. The issue them becomes a list exists of anyone over 99, which the fed could use to pick easy targets.

well if everyone has pounds then pounds become unimportant. I think making Cannabis unimportant is a good thing.. it's ridiculous to have made such a valuable resource illegal to start with but we all know the stories on how Cannabis was to compete with cotton, wood and petrol chemicals and was made illegal on the backs of the people with racialism .

That Racism has transferred to the "Hippies" with Nixion's 1072 War of drugs.

So let us start with the people and leave the business aspects to the proper authorities!

On the colored text.. I will try and find a way to reply to such a strung out reply in a better way.
Please help me by hot separating the debate of my posts into individual sentences. If I can reply in whole I can use the quote and reply function of this software better.

Once again do all understand the need to Legalize for the people first and separate from Business in 2012? Prop 19 tried to bring it all home and failed!
Not all of our people were behind it and our Federal Government got involved too.. Must have been a really badly written piece of law to cause the $100 on the spot tax come Jan. 1st, Prompt Mexico to stage a huge 105 ton bust and burn it this time and to separate our troops into Anti-prop 19 and pro-prop 19 camps.

I believe we should follow the simplicity of Prop 215. Keep business out of it and establish the most liberal rights we can and I suggest the 5 things!

We have tried to do too much too fast with prop 19 and it backfired!

Prop 19 was basically thrust Upon us with little public input on the voter Initiative process to draft this.

If we cannot pass for the people only then we have to wait another 10 or 20 years until the corruption is so rife that legalizing is just an after thought to get control.

We cannot mandate communities to allow everyone 99 plants in all situations but we can have it on the books that it isn't a felony.
We can have permitting systems that generate funds for the State in fees and taxes. That can employ State workers and help the State Pension fund and will have our Large Employees unions on our side!
So forget trying to piggy-back business laws on what is clearly a Citizen issue. let the State establish the business rules and don't make the voter suspicious they cant see the hidden evil like prop 19 did.

This time, Like Prop-215, let us legalize for the people!

It will pass! Any other initiative we try in 2012 will fail!

 

[Dan Kone]

well if everyone has pounds then pounds become unimportant.

A pound can get over 1000 people lit no matter how many pounds exist. That will never become unimportant.

 

[Dan Kone]

Dan- I think anyone who sells their herb in commercial markets should be inspected, consumer safety just like any food or meds. But the small farmers that dont use commercial outlets should not be forced to allow inspections. This is the current food model, and it applies to ganja IMO.

Oh I totally agree with that. That is why it's important to separate personal and commercial gardening. Personal gardens should be no one's business but their own. Commercially sold bud should be at least pathogen tested, I have no objections to health inspections on commercial farms.

People deserve to know if they are smoking Avid or mold.

 

[Dan Kone]

Ernst - I wish you the best of luck dude. I guess we'll just have to be in disagreement on what legalization should look like.

 

[Matt Rize]

A pound can get over 1000 people lit no matter how many pounds exist. That will never become unimportant.

And pounds will always have an out of state price. that will stay inflated due to prohibition. these things matter because the goal is to get people to stop breaking the law, not just make Cannabis on the books legal.

 

[Matt Rize]

Ernst - I wish you the best of luck dude. I guess we'll just have to be in disagreement on what legalization should look like.

Agreed. BUT wtf do I know

The problem is legalization has no real model to follow. Shit is crazy in amsterdam, and not legalized in the sense ernst/beardo are speaking (big up respect to you both for your morals). Canada same thing... they gave up emery and now he is in Ga prison getting butt-fucked by some neo-nazi. so where is your (ernst and/or beardo) version of legalization based on?

I'm not implying that I have something better or based on success elsewhere, just ignorant and curious if this exists already elsewhere.

 

[Dan Kone]

And pounds will always have an out of state price. that will stay inflated due to prohibition. these things matter because the goal is to get people to stop breaking the law, not just make Cannabis on the books legal.

Exactly. Which is also why business needs to be addressed in any legalization effort. We (or at least I) don't want cannabis to be associated with crime in the minds of all Americans. In order to do that some thought needs to be put into commercial transactions. If that is ignored we still have cops investigating cannabis to catch people growing commercially without permits. If we eliminate the usefulness of the black market the police have no reason to break down people's doors.

With out a clear separation between personal and commercial growing as well as a system allowing people who are growing commercially or selling to become legal businesses we are all still going to be treated like criminals by law enforcement.

 

[Ernst]

Ok. You still want highschool kids to be able to grow and buy cannabis right? That's just bad news. How can you not see that this will lose and chance of passing? Why is it so important that highschool kids must have the right to possess cannabis? Is waiting until they graduate really so bad?

Will you remind me why it should be everyone's right to turn their residential home into a grow house capable of producing over 100 pounds per year? I'm all for letting people have the right to grow as much as they can possibly use themselves at home, but why enable people to legally turn their entire house into a grow house? I understand why you think people should be able to grow 99 plants, and while I think that number will scare off voters it could still be ok. There is nothing you've said so far that explains why there should be no restrictions on grow space. Without exception, anyone growing 2000 sq ft of cannabis is doing so for commercial purposes. But you think they should be able to grow 2000sq ft for "personal use" in residential areas? Regardless of if that is your intention or not what you are proposing does allow for that.

Why are you insisting on creating something the majority of Californians will not want? What's so bad about having legalization that everyone in the community has a reason to support?

I am Taking the time to speak directly on your concerns. I am not able to reply in whole.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok. You still want high-school kids to be able to grow and buy cannabis right?

What age ranges are you calling High School kids? I am saying 18+ for Cannabis laws to apply .
High School is generally 18 and below yes?

Please define your age group and see if it is what the 5 things state as to what you are repeatedly posting.
The 5 things say nothing about allowing growing cannabis in high schools.

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Will you remind me why it should be everyone's right to turn their residential home into a grow house capable of producing over 100 pounds per year?

The 5 things do not specify how one grows their cannabis. Local ordnances will apply I am sure.
The 5 things say that 99 plants are not a crime but that doesn't mean that local areas cannot define the local rules for gardens it is unconstitutional to forbid them from doing so I am sure.
If the Medical Bill of rights allows all medical people all over the State an outdoor garden it stands to reason any one can have an outside garden
I remind you we all ready have rules in some areas of California that forbid outside gardens and only allow indoor gardens as well as tax at $27,000 a year for a 5x5.
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I'm all for letting people have the right to grow as much as they can possibly use themselves at home, but why enable people to legally turn their entire house into a grow house?

Again local ordnances are made for such a thing. The 5 things establish a base line reference for all Californians it doesn't try to tell communities how to implement them just that they have to honour the law.
So the 5 things do not do what you accuse them of.
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I understand why you think people should be able to grow 99 plants, and while I think that number will scare off voters it could still be ok.

This is a point of debate. My position is for the 5 things to be the Legal-liberal voice of legalization. I do emphasise that the Initiative is passed it will provide the base rules for us all equally. How local jurisdictions implement the law is a right of that jurusdiction that we should respect. This is why a liberal set of rights are so important. Because we know what the Jim-Crow-cannabis Laws are like in some places and the comparatively obscene open pandering for Dispensary sales by young females in short shorts and tank-tops are like in others. We must stop this by passing a medical Bill of rights and make rights equal for all up and down the State!

If Cannabis is freely grown in the Sun who would want to spend the money to grow inside unless they are growing special crops. Again why would anyone want to be arrested and have their property taken when a simple permit would cover their ass and allow their insurance to be in effect.

That Cannabis could be made so common for us all means that the value of a grow is relative to the supply and as Judge Jim Grey will tell you in any video it is the Drug money that is the real problem.
We start to solve the problem prohibition has caused!

Basically by allowing all of California Citizens to grow means that there is competition against illegal grow ops who do not contribute to society.
Here the Conservatives and the Liberals can agree. We must allow our people who follow the rules freedom and we must find those who do not contribute,
Our taxes and fees will go to fund the protecting of our Cannabis rights of all of us.

This means Mexican Cartels grows on national forest lands will have more people looking for them
and it includes our underground illegal exporters.
We cannot have it both ways; Having it legal for law abiding citizens being taxed and regulated and also allowing a flourishing illegal market that doesn't contribute and breaks our laws.
If we legalize for all the people we all must support this or be willing to punish those that don't.

We are talking about legalizing and once we do that we have to stand by our laws so they had better be as clear and as liberal as we can make them to cover as many of our people as possible.
We have 99 plant grows now so we have to have 99 plant language!
We have people who are medical and forbidden to have a coop in some areas while we have women in tight shorts on roller blades soliciting new customers on beach front board-walks for a series of Cannabis Shops in other parts of the state!
We need a Medical Bill of right to provide equality for all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

here is nothing you've said so far that explains why there should be no restrictions on grow space. Without exception, anyone growing 2000 sq ft of cannabis is doing so for commercial purposes. But you think they should be able to grow 2000sq ft for "personal use" in residential areas? Regardless of if that is your intention or not what you are proposing does allow for that.

We value private wealth. That isn't something i have to define or defend. If you have 2000 square feet and want to use that land to grow legal crops I have no problem with that.
if you are employing 10 people to grow , harvest, process, package and distribute that produce you are not a private citizen growing a garden you are in business.
Again you seem to be unable to separate the role of business from the rights on individuals.
The 5 things doesn't address business rights and the whole point of the 5 things is to establish rights for people like prop 215.

I suggest we look to the only Cannabis Initiative to pass with over 50% of the vote 15 years ago.
( think about how many no votes have died and how many yes votes have come of age now )

We need to forget trying to carry business on our backs this time!
Let us legalize simply and in clear language all can understand clearly without needing a lawyer to decipher.
Prop 19 tried to roll it all up into a package that changed everything at once and we said NO to that and we saw it fail.
Prop 215 on the other hand was simple and it passed and it passed when more No people were alive.

Let our Legislators handle the business aspects. They are much more able to resolve the industrial applications than the simple voter is and besides we pay them to do that.
Let us grant rights to the people and correct injustice against medical people!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why are you insisting on creating something the majority of Californians will not want? What's so bad about having legalization that everyone in the community has a reason to support?

I don't know where you draw your facts from on that statement.

if we strip it down to a simple individual rights issue and it is not passed then we have a clear signal we have to wait and i am fine with that.

If we follow another Prop-19 type to defeat we could actually stop any hope for people and only have the Industrial sized production facilities and only have Government approved weed for all time.

So are you willing to gamble on passing a law that makes more than x size or x plants a felony and allows the corporation to produce unlimited pounds daily and sell it once again and to repeat a prop-19 style Initiative into failure?
Or are you willing to empower the people and let our legislature define the industry?

-------------------------------------------------------

Now i will put all my replies in one grouping.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am Taking the time to speak directly on your concerns. I am not able to reply in whole.
What age ranges are you calling High School kids? I am saying 18+ for Cannabis laws to apply .
High School is generally 18 and below yes?

Please define your age group and see if it is what the 5 things state as to what you are repeatedly posting.
The 5 things say nothing about allowing growing cannabis in high schools.
The 5 things do not specify how one grows their cannabis. Local ordnances will apply I am sure.
The 5 things say that 99 plants are not a crime but that doesn't mean that local areas cannot define the local rules for gardens it is unconstitutional to forbid them from doing so I am sure.
If the Medical Bill of rights allows all medical people all over the State an outdoor garden it stands to reason any one can have an outside garden
I remind you we all ready have rules in some areas of California that forbid outside gardens and only allow indoor gardens as well as tax at $27,000 a year for a 5x5.
Again local ordnances are made for such a thing. The 5 things establish a base line reference for all Californians it doesn't try to tell communities how to implement them just that they have to honour the law.
So the 5 things do not do what you accuse them of.
This is a point of debate. My position is for the 5 things to be the Legal-liberal voice of legalization. I do emphasise that the Initiative is passed it will provide the base rules for us all equally. How local jurisdictions implement the law is a right of that jurusdiction that we should respect. This is why a liberal set of rights are so important. Because we know what the Jim-Crow-cannabis Laws are like in some places and the comparatively obscene open pandering for Dispensary sales by young females in short shorts and tank-tops are like in others. We must stop this by passing a medical Bill of rights and make rights equal for all up and down the State!

If Cannabis is freely grown in the Sun who would want to spend the money to grow inside unless they are growing special crops. Again why would anyone want to be arrested and have their property taken when a simple permit would cover their ass and allow their insurance to be in effect.

That Cannabis could be made so common for us all means that the value of a grow is relative to the supply and as Judge Jim Grey will tell you in any video it is the Drug money that is the real problem.
We start to solve the problem prohibition has caused!

Basically by allowing all of California Citizens to grow means that there is competition against illegal grow ops who do not contribute to society.
Here the Conservatives and the Liberals can agree. We must allow our people who follow the rules freedom and we must find those who do not contribute,
Our taxes and fees will go to fund the protecting of our Cannabis rights of all of us.

This means Mexican Cartels grows on national forest lands will have more people looking for them
and it includes our underground illegal exporters.
We cannot have it both ways; Having it legal for law abiding citizens being taxed and regulated and also allowing a flourishing illegal market that doesn't contribute and breaks our laws.
If we legalize for all the people we all must support this or be willing to punish those that don't.

We are talking about legalizing and once we do that we have to stand by our laws so they had better be as clear and as liberal as we can make them to cover as many of our people as possible.
We have 99 plant grows now so we have to have 99 plant language!
We have people who are medical and forbidden to have a coop in some areas while we have women in tight shorts on roller blades soliciting new customers on beach front board-walks for a series of Cannabis Shops in other parts of the state!
We need a Medical Bill of right to provide equality for all.

if we strip it down to a simple individual rights issue and it is not passed then we have a clear signal we have to wait and i am fine with that.

If we follow another Prop-19 type to defeat we could actually stop any hope for people and only have the Industrial sized production facilities and only have Government approved weed for all time.

So are you willing to gamble on passing a law that makes more than x size or x plants a felony and allows the corporation to produce unlimited pounds daily and sell it once again and to repeat a prop-19 style Initiative into failure?
Or are you willing to empower the people and let our legislature define the industry?

-------------------------------------------------------

Again The 5 things aim to establish rights for individuals not to try and be a better prop-19
We were able to pass Prop-215 15 years ago and it was a simple for the individual initiative.
I believe we will only pass legalization if it empowers the people alone.
We should let the business issues be decided by legislature and the Governor.

This is our second and perhaps our best chance to legalize for the people.

If we try and craft an initiative that simple folks can't understand they will vote no. That is a proven generally understood fact.

The 5 things are
1. 18+ as to who is an adult in regards to Cannabis laws we pass
2. A medical Bill of equal rights for all counties and jurisdictions plus job protections.
3. The right to grow as many plants as you can with 99 being the federal line in the sand on serious felonies.
4. One regulatory agency who collect taxes issues permits and licences and enforces the law. Restores State Jobs and fortifies the State pension fund through employee participation.
5. Private sales/trade that is not commercial in nature.

That's it.. If the simple cannot pas the complex will not either.

It is wise if we start simple and work our way from there.

legalize for the people and then we tackle business!

trying to roll it all up into one thing like prop-19 is a tough sale.

Again I believe the 5 things are the wisest way to lay a foundation of law.

 

[Ernst]

Ernst - I wish you the best of luck dude. I guess we'll just have to be in disagreement on what legalization should look like.

That's fine.. I started a whole site just for the debate.

California2012.org is there for California to come and do this conversation over and over again.

Just imagine that these sort of thing is happening 100 places and will fade to dust as it did before and will again and now realize there is a centeral location for all of us to gather and work this out in reality and together we will do something.

There is no reason we have to allow 99 but in the face of what actually happened to medical folks do we not want equality no mater where we live in the State?

So why not come and people California2012.org where your points will live forever independently of all of the separate grow sites!

I remind us all that we are not only doing this for our selves but for people who are not born yet.

Perhaps granting Freedom and regulating is better than granting limits and making them live as we have under the gun!

Remember separate the industry from the individual and we will have legalization.

But don't quit like it sound like you are doing now that you have had your fun.

We have to be bigger than our own self interests or our own limited values and perceptions when we define freedom for all.

I say Swing Left and allow the maximum plant count to be legal in what space you have.
Protect medical people on jobs and in communities with equal rights for all in the State of California
Allow all legal adults to be covered by these laws
Make one agency be in charge so that discrimination is eliminated through unjust taxation and unjust restrictions.
Allow private citizens to trade with other legal private citizens in California!

If that is too extreme for Cannabis rights and the people say so.. I will stand corrected but I am not willing to be afraid to try.

Let Business be decided by legislature and the Governor.


Come to California2012.org and post your opinions on a site dedicated to this..
Don't let your words fade to 100 or 200 on the list of threads scattered on many sites no one knows about!
Separate the vote on Individual and Business this tome.. Let us legalize for People first!

We have a ways to go to 2012.. best to make it count onCalifornia2012.org!

 

[Matt Rize]

Exactly. Which is also why business needs to be addressed in any legalization effort. We (or at least I) don't want cannabis to be associated with crime in the minds of all Americans. In order to do that some thought needs to be put into commercial transactions. If that is ignored we still have cops investigating cannabis to catch people growing commercially without permits. If we eliminate the usefulness of the black market the police have no reason to break down people's doors.

With out a clear separation between personal and commercial growing as well as a system allowing people who are growing commercially or selling to become legal businesses we are all still going to be treated like criminals by law enforcement.

I'll come out and say it for ernst because he loves the drama. I am not for the complete freedom of Cannabis in every way. That is not realistic in our lifetimes and I will not waste my efforts. In fact, it has less to do with the plant, and is about people. I am for decrim and tax/regulation of commercial ganja and hemp. Something plausible IMO is the decrim of Cannabis consumption and personal cultivation for adults, focus on the people and adults. Legalizing unregulated indoor "ganja" farming is not a safe idea, and the public knows this. Sales is also the real issue, and relates back to indoor neighborhood farming and associated risks.

Hemp should be easy to pass as long as it is clearly written to be for fiber and not resin or flowers ect.

Tackling personal growing and sales is a tricky issue, and may bring the whole thing down. BUT this is crucial (for InI) and needs to be decriminalized. The issue becomes age... you can't sell anything 18+ at the farmer's markets and without a license. So to be a small farmer who sells his herb you will have to get a permit, much like alcohol. this means inspections and analysis. it is the future, i hate it and love it. have you heard of "clean green" certification for your herb garden? i think that may be the future but instead it will be a gov't agency like current organic certifications.

And commercial growing/production is another can of worms. Fuck em LOL

Let's remember that we have already established that herb is medicine for many ailments. We can use that to push for personal grow decrim, not 99 plant breeding projects.

 

[Ernst]

You are actually right on this is my thing " Like that funny movie clip of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WCvULMRUq8"

That thing really is my bag baby..

So yeah i am of this legalization generation naturally because I have lived the life in the this time frame of 1961 to present.

I am very qualified to provide my insights and they should be considered because I have paid the price and earned my stripes.

We must legalise for people this time and not try to carry business on our backs!

We will fail if we try another all in one prop-19 style initiative.

Prop 215 passed because it was simple to understand and for the people!

 

[Matt Rize]

That's fine.. I started a whole site just for the debate.

Just imagine that these sort of thing is happening 100 places and will fade to dust as it did before and will again and now realize there is a centeral location for all of us to gather and work this out in reality and together we will do something.

Bro... no offense intended but you are already there. RIU is this site. The other forums (excluding yours) are moderated by european jerks and are for canada and europe. Rollitup.org is for us, and the best conversation about CA canna politics happens here. Trust me, I've looked. The best prop 19 was here. The best CCHH 2012 talk is here. I value your perspective and insights. I like your POV, even though we agree to disagree about legalization, we can all agree on

 

[Ernst]

There will be other issues for California on California2012.org as well.. It's a place this trhead is linked as well as hundreds of others..

You are welcome to do both since it is LEGAL for now.. <PUN INTENDED>

Okay then.. I will check back but it was really fun..

What I saw with Prop-19 is that the independent sites ended up in polarized groups because of the clan nature of site loyalty. California2012.org aims to avoid polarizing and isolation by being a central focal for all independent groups and besides if we all can manage to see our way to gather together we all can work together.
if we cling to the safe harbours of these separate locals we tend to isolate and not be able to work together,.

But Yes you have freedom of choice.. Something i want for all Cannabis people as well!

Okay.. I will go see what is happening in other parts of California..

Cheers!

I had a nice time.. A nit tiring but nice.. I'll check back later!

 

[Ernst]

Hey.. I thought of another good reason for 99+ being legal.

Can it be imagined that people will start to save seeds? Start to save genetics for the future people of the world?

if so then they deserve our full support. Imagine that Cannabis Seed Savers and Heirloom variety growers save the variety we have today for future generations and in turn those generations save genetics for their future people.
I believe we just found the single most important reason that people should have the right to have 99.

It is very true that the most profitable tomato in California is a Green Hard skinned Tomato and that catsup is red because we color it.
The same is also happening to Cannabis why what strains were here last year and where do i get them today in seed form?
Who maintains the genetic library for all of us, Or are genetics of cannabis something that is to make money now then pass on to the neither world.


Think on that one guys.. I'd like to know how the Decrim of growing beats the Legalization of growing based on the Heirloom and Seed saver function of keeping useful plants on this planet.

Cool Hey Orange County is starting their campaign on repealing prop 215 with negative articles on dispensaries..

i posted a bit there!

 

[Dan Kone]

Come to California2012.org and post your opinions on a site dedicated to this..
Don't let your words fade to 100 or 200 on the list of threads scattered on many sites no one knows about!
Separate the vote on Individual and Business this tome.. Let us legalize for People first!

So you're going to completely ignore everyone but people who grow all their own bud? What about the hundreds of thousands of people who don't have time to grow there own buds? You know, the majority of people this bill would effect? I guess they can all drop dead too along with parents, homeowners, and commercial growers/retailers.

If you just say "let government deal with business" that's exactly what you're doing. Unlimited taxation at every level, communities banning commercial growing/dispensaries, people being arrested for illegal growing/selling as a result.

Sounding more and more like you're writing something for you personally and have absolutely no concern for anyone else.

What you are proposing would only pass if voted on in your house. As long as it only applies there, I'm ok with it. However it would be terrible if it applied to the whole state. Good thing there is absolutely no chance of it passing any state wide vote.

 

[Ernst]

So you're going to completely ignore everyone but people who grow all their own bud? What about the hundreds of thousands of people who don't have time to grow there own buds? You know, the majority of people this bill would effect? I guess they can all drop dead too along with parents, homeowners, and commercial growers/retailers.

If you just say "let government deal with business" that's exactly what you're doing. Unlimited taxation at every level, communities banning commercial growing/dispensaries, people being arrested for illegal growing/selling as a result.

Sounding more and more like you're writing something for you personally and have absolutely no concern for anyone else.

What you are proposing would only pass if voted on in your house. As long as it only applies there, I'm ok with it. However it would be terrible if it applied to the whole state. Good thing there is absolutely no chance of it passing any state wide vote.

Pardon.. I do get passionate.

Pardon the Pro-People but once it is legal for the people won't the State need to pass a law for business?
Edit: After thought: F-em they will either pass proper business laws or we will all start dealing. If our law makers have a stick in their butt after a successful vote on legalizing for the people that is their problem and we will all simply share what we have with those who don't have any right?
Prop-19 people said.."Vote yes now and we will fix what is wrong later." They also said "One step at a time." So here we are with the concept of the "Shoe is on the other foot."
If no business laws come forward quickly and the State is unwilling to tax and regulate then we will get Cannabis where we always get cannabis.
Also by saying "It won't pass" you are betting against the People.

Look it is way early for us to take sides and suggest someone is a loony so, I will go on posting news and being helpful..
What, pray tell, do you do for us?

By the way Orange county is home to the Repeal prop 215 campaign and they have a "poll" going on the Register attempting to sway voters so far, like it has been, the comments are all against the efforts to shut down and ban all dispensaries.
I don't think it matters to them but why not pop in and show some support for our Orange County Canna-Brothers and Canna-Sisters today?
http://www.ocregister.com/news/marijuana-277149-recommendation-county.html?cb=1290471320
The War is not over and Prop 19 was just one battle. Most of the freedom-posters have faded back to wherever they came from after prop 19 so we need you to man the keyboards friends!

Oh and on the age of 18.. Our top 2% want their tax cuts with the rest of us even if it adds 700 billion to the deficit and we have to cut education or healthcare for children so I ask you all why are we willing to make someone an adult at 18 and expect them to vote yes for us when doing so makes them a canna-criminal from 18 - 21?
If we can legalize and not create more canna-prisoners we are doing the right thing.
After all most of our 18 year olds who will smoke cannabis already have by 18 I would assume.

Peace.. Rainy cold day here.. Gotta pay my medical license fee today

Ernst

Some words of wisdom " It is my opinion that each of us should attempt to wear the shoe on the other foot from time to time. This will allow us to view the word from a different perspective and understand what others are experiencing better. "

 

[Dan Kone]

Pardon the Pro-People but once it is legal for the people won't the State need to pass a law for business?
Edit: After thought: F-em they will either pass proper business laws or we will all start dealing. If our law makers have a stick in their butt after a successful vote on legalizing for the people that is their problem and we will all simply share what we have with those who don't have any right?

When you ignore dispensaries you aren't just ignoring dispensary owners/workers you're ignoring their customers as well. The majority of cannabis consumers don't grow their own bud, they buy it. So by ignoring business, you're ignoring the majority of people you claim you're writing this for.

Business laws actually effect the customers more than the business owners since the owners generally pass additional costs on to the consumers. By not addressing business up front you're allowing the California assembly to do it for you. No one should trust this task (or any other really) with the state assembly.

By not addressing business, you allow communities to pass laws banning dispensaries which denies safe access to cannabis to the majority. You allow open ended taxation of these dispensaries rather than setting a tax up front. By doing this people could end up paying the same taxes on bud that they do on cigs. We've already seen the government ban cannabis using the tax stamp act, you're opening the door for them to do it again. We must learn from the past.

If we set a tax on commercial sales up front, we give non-smokers a reason to vote for it. By ignoring the issue, we allow some orange county republican prohibitionist politician to become popular with his buddies by putting unreasonably high taxes on cannabis.

Also this opens the door to allow lobbyists to come in and write the business law for you. Who will be lobbying the government to the law they want passed? Richard Lee? Phillip Morris?

By ignoring the issue you give prohibitionists in the assembly and lobbyists for big business exactly what they want. This will likely come at the expense of cannabis consumers and northern California communities that rely on growing for income.

You probably think you're sticking it to big business by ignoring them but you're not. You're sticking it to smokers and growers. Is that really what you want?

 

[medicineman]

Let us say that Ca. completely legalizes cannabis, no tricks no lies. Don't you think the feds would descend on Ca like locusts, busting everything in site. What we seem to forget is this: The USA has treaties with over 200 countries that make Cannabis illegal. Seeing the USA as lax on cannabis enforcement would denigrate some of these treaties. The US government cannot afford that luxury as these treaties have a lucrative side bar, as in Natural resource extractions. We all know the USA does not have enough natural resources to keep us in the lifestyle we've been accustomed to.

 

[Ernst]

When you ignore dispensaries you aren't just ignoring dispensary owners/workers you're ignoring their customers as well. The majority of cannabis consumers don't grow their own bud, they buy it. So by ignoring business, you're ignoring the majority of people you claim you're writing this for.

Business laws actually effect the customers more than the business owners since the owners generally pass additional costs on to the consumers. By not addressing business up front you're allowing the California assembly to do it for you. No one should trust this task (or any other really) with the state assembly.

By not addressing business, you allow communities to pass laws banning dispensaries which denies safe access to cannabis to the majority. You allow open ended taxation of these dispensaries rather than setting a tax up front. By doing this people could end up paying the same taxes on bud that they do on cigs. We've already seen the government ban cannabis using the tax stamp act, you're opening the door for them to do it again. We must learn from the past.

If we set a tax on commercial sales up front, we give non-smokers a reason to vote for it. By ignoring the issue, we allow some orange county republican prohibitionist politician to become popular with his buddies by putting unreasonably high taxes on cannabis.

Also this opens the door to allow lobbyists to come in and write the business law for you. Who will be lobbying the government to the law they want passed? Richard Lee? Phillip Morris?

By ignoring the issue you give prohibitionists in the assembly and lobbyists for big business exactly what they want. This will likely come at the expense of cannabis consumers and northern California communities that rely on growing for income.

You probably think you're sticking it to big business by ignoring them but you're not. You're sticking it to smokers and growers. Is that really what you want?

Hey no one is stopping anyone from drafting an Initiative to establish the Industry.

I'm not the evil guy!

My point is that to make it legal for the people we should follow the simplicity of Prop 215 and make it so the 5 things are clear to all and then and only then will we get voter approval.

Has anyone considered that it might have been the "Business" aspects of prop 19 that caused it to fail?

If we want to do right by the people then let the Hippies win and let Wall-street file their own Initiative.

I am officially supporting the 5 things http://california2012.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=202

Keep it Simple Simon so we can make that first step.

Why let the medical Industry run us over again in 2012 when making us wait 4 years means much more control for the Industry and much more arrests for our people.

Remember the 5 things!!

KISS! Remember the Five things!

If we roll it all up again and take a chance where will we be if it fails?

If it fails on the grounds of legalizing for the people then there is no way in hell it will pass for industry BUT if it passes for the People then Industry is a Shoe-in!
It's that as a private Citizen I don't deal and don't really go there. I'm medical and have grown all my own for years. I figure many are quiet private folks who would love to plant a few plants in the yard here and there and not be limited to one spot in the yard.

Remember The 5 Things for 2012!

By the way we have a national Cannabis Trade association now http://california2012.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=204