Is the democratic party stupid, blind, clueless or is it based on ideology?

[Dan Kone]

I'm not a conservative.

Maybe not socially, but fiscally you couldn't be further to the right.

 

[Dan Kone]

And what peole dont seem to get is that those millionares and billionares do not hide the money in giant caves of gold bars or something.

That money is invested in the market, in businesses, in investments. And those things create jobs.

Yep. They create a lot of jobs. Too bad all those jobs are in east asia.

The government wants to steal that wealth generating money and spend it on welfare programs for the 10% unemployment...

The unemployment is only at 10% because the rich got greedy by deregulating the financial system. They made a ton of money, cashed out when the gig was up, and stuck us all with the bill. Giving 3% of that back isn't unreasonable.

 

[Dan Kone]

First, "the wealthy" are not billionares. They are now couples who make over $250,000/yr, which is not a shitload of money if you have kids and live in the city.

But they are doing ok.

I'm all for making that distinction. If we want to make a separate tax bracket for people making over 750k per year I'd love that. We can all agree that people making 750k or more per year aren't going to starve to death if they get a slight tax increase right?

They do not sit around it dark rooms conspiring on how to enslave you...

I've never said anything remotely similar to that.

they are the you and I's of the world that have worked hard and are moderately successful.

Yeah, Paris Hilton is pretty much just like you or me except she works harder so she makes more money. lol

The "billionares" in the US (I know it wasn't you that made that comment)...there are approximately 400 in the US. I'm tired of people talking about them. Kill em for all I care. What most people think of as the rich are the successful you and I's of the world that work for institutions. And these institutions are not investing because there is too much uncertainty in the market and nothing makes any sense.

No. There is very little uncertainty. People are spending money. With a decrease in demand for goods and services investing isn't as profitable. That's pretty simple. I don't understand why anyone is confused by this.

The government does not have the ability to improve anything let alone the economy.

When you generalize that broadly it makes it seem like you don't understand what you're talking about.

The government can't improve anything? Nothing at all? Really? Why bother having a government at all then? Maybe we need a government like Somalia. Government really gets out of their way. Talk about a free market success!

Any excess monies are wasted.

Really? They just take the money and throw it in fireplaces or what? What is this excess monies you speak of? Last time I checked we had a deficit, not a surplus.

Better in the hands of the $200-250k ranges of people and small buisnesses to put back into the system.

Who's going to buy the goods and services of the businesses that are being created? Certainly not the American middle class, they can't afford it.

Here's a thought! Why not put that money in the hands of the people who are most likely to spend it on goods and services in our economy? That would create demand which would create jobs and then rich people would have more profitable things to invest in. Everyone wins! Rich and poor alike benefit.

What's so bad about that idea? Why the insistence on this money going to the people who have money already instead of the people who we rely on to purchase goods and services which makes investment and job creation profitable?

 

[NoDrama]

You know dan i actually agree with you in the general idea, we need to get the country back on its feet. We just disagree on the method to get to that point. My method would be to crash the system and let the Phoenix rise from the ashes. Your method would be to prop the system up with stolen monies from the richer folk. The system is dead, its all based on debt, and with that debt goes interest, but the problem is that they don't ever create the interest. this can go on for only so long before the total interest due is larger than can be paid. We are at that point, propping up the system only makes the inevitable pain worse and longer. This country doesn't need to tax anybody a single dime of their own labor. your labor belongs to you, you belong to you, not the state, not some bureaucrat sitting in a comfy leather chair deciding on your life. This republic ran just fine with ZERO income tax for 150 years, in fact the GREATEST periods of growth was during that time. No one needs to be taxed 90% of their income, to do so will only drive the rich to somehow find a way to make less than the amount needed to be "Rich" it could be someone who gets paid in options, but donates all their time to a company, totally legal and your income is zero, but your untaxed ( Until you sell) profits could be in the Millions. One thing rich people are REALLY REALLY GOOD AT, keeping their money.

Unemployment is at 22%, 3 million people about to drop off the unemployment rolls, they will no longer be counted as unemployed. The "Official" numbers will look even better. Finally when not a single soul has a job, and we have all fallen off the unemployment rolls, we will finally have 0% unemployment according to the government statistics.


You are right on about the middle class, but we need those factories back, we need total global market domination back, we need to start a big war and stop all the other countries from being able to compete with us like we did in WW2!! What you think the odds of us having some more wars are?

 

[NoDrama]

Here's a thought! Why not put that money in the hands of the people who are most likely to spend it on goods and services in our economy? That would create demand which would create jobs and then rich people would have more profitable things to invest in. Everyone wins! Rich and poor alike benefit.

What's so bad about that idea? Why the insistence on this money going to the people who have money already instead of the people who we rely on to purchase goods and services which makes investment and job creation profitable?

Basically what your advocating here is that muggers in NY actually provide a service to the community by freeing up unused currency and spending it thereby enriching the person who was mugged in the process. So that's whats wrong with it. Do you see?

 

[Dan Kone]

You know dan i actually agree with you in the general idea, we need to get the country back on its feet. We just disagree on the method to get to that point. My method would be to crash the system and let the Phoenix rise from the ashes.

Sounds risky dude.

Your method would be to prop the system up with stolen monies from the richer folk.

No it isn't. My method is to have the people who benefit from being an American most pay something closer to what has historically been considered their fare share.

I'm not suggesting we go back to the tax system of socialist/communist/marxist presidents such as Richard Nixon or Dwight Eisenhower or anything.

I just think we should go back to having the top tax rate we had under Reagan's first term. Was Reagan too commie/robin hood for everyone too?

This republic ran just fine with ZERO income tax for 2 hundred years, in fact the GREATEST periods of growth were during those 2 centuries.

Great. We should just bring back slavery and that might work. Other than that, I see a flaw in going back to an economic system before the industrial revolution when we had a free labor force.

You are right on about the middle class, but we need those factories back, we need total global market domination back,

Totally. China and other countries that have stolen our jobs have economic protections in place to prevent America stealing all their jobs. It's about time we do the same back.

we need to start a big war and stop all the other countries from being able to compete with us like we did in WW2!! What you think the odds of us having some more wars are?

Wait, what? We should go out and kill people so we can have more money?

There has to be a better way....

 

[NoDrama]

There has to be a better way....

Its actually the only way to save the current system. That's why I advocate a new system based on real wealth, not paper promises, no fractional banking. No money creation.

 

[Dan Kone]

Basically what your advocating here is that muggers in NY actually provide a service to the community by freeing up unused currency and spending it thereby enriching the person who was mugged in the process. So that's whats wrong with it. Do you see?

WTF? No, I don't see. If the middle class are "mugging" the rich, they're doing it wrong. Since the 80's the counties wealth has been being transfered out of the middle class into the hands of the wealthy due to government policies. The rich are the one's doing the mugging. You've got it backwards.

Was Reagan (commie that he was) "mugging" the rich? Taxes on the wealthy were much higher in the first half of the 80's than they are now. Am I a commie for suggesting we go back to a Reagan tax rate? Really?

Do you guys understand how absurd you sound when you complain about the wealthy paying an extra 3% on taxes when they are making an unprecedented amount of wealth and paying a historically low amount of taxes.

Do you realize that if the wealthy paid an extra 13% on their taxes they'd be back to a Reagan era tax rate? Yet we are only talking about an extra 3% and you're calling it mugging and people are complaining about socialism.

If that is socialism then Reagan, Nixon, and Eisenhower were all socialists. Does that sound like a reasonable point of view to you?

You guys are all painfully ignorant to history. The worst part is that you know this and you're completely ignoring our economic history intentionality. Sorry, I don't like name calling but I have to say it. If you are intentionally being ignorant then that is stupidity. There is no other way to describe it.

 

[Dan Kone]

Its actually the only way to save the current system. That's why I advocate a new system based on real wealth, not paper promises, no fractional banking. No money creation.

How about we just stop this 30 year free trade binge that has resulted in lopsided economic policies and the loss of our middle class instead? That seems like a lot nicer thing to do than bombing people for profit.

 

[NoDrama]

WTF? No, I don't see. If the middle class are "mugging" the rich, they're doing it wrong. Since the 80's the counties wealth has been being transfered out of the middle class into the hands of the wealthy due to government policies. The rich are the one's doing the mugging. You've got it backwards.


You guys are all painfully ignorant to history. The worst part is that you know this and you're completely ignoring our economic history intentionality. Sorry, I don't like name calling but I have to say it. If you are intentionally being ignorant then that is stupidity. There is no other way to describe it.

Actually the money was transferred to China, you can stop blaming the well off for all of the problems of this country.

Ignorant to history? I would say that were you , not us.

Other than that, I see a flaw in going back to an economic system before the industrial revolution when we had a free labor force.

The industrial revolution happened while there was no income tax, see how well you know history? you don't even know when the greatest period of growth the world had ever seen happened. The income tax didn't start until 1913, so I think you got miseducated on your history if you thought that there was income tax during the industrial revolution.

 

[NoDrama]

How about we just stop this 30 year free trade binge that has resulted in lopsided economic policies and the loss of our middle class instead? That seems like a lot nicer thing to do than bombing people for profit.

I totally agree!!!

 

[bajafox]

Giving middle class citizens the ability (or loop hole) to buy homes they couldn't afford didn't help the economy much either.

 

[Puna Bud]

Giving middle class citizens the ability (or loop hole) to buy homes they couldn't afford didn't help the economy much either.

and how did that happen? Through deregulating everything, that's how that happened!

With regards to extending the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, it's just plan and simple bad math! I keep hearing the same old GOP talking point bullshit how we need the tax cut for the wealthy. They are the ones who are creating jobs!! 8 years under Bush and things didn't change. So what makes people like McConnell keep thinking jobs will come from wealthy. Yet, the same people refuse to extend unemployment! Over 2 million folks lose their benefits tonight at midnight! To extend these folks benefits through Feb. would have been a lot cheaper than a 700 billion price tag. Plus it's the moral thing to do.

People need to wake up and smell the coffee. At first I was extremely pissed off at Obama for what is happening in our great nation, our country was falling apart, and people were blaming this country's first African-American President. Well actually half African-American. "You Lie", screamed Joe Wilson at Obama's first State of the Union address. I can still hear that,and I wonder why Joe Wilson never stood up and yelled "you lie", to George W. Bush. Because if anybody lied it was this man in the oval office before Obama,GW Bush. But of course Joe Wilson would have never shouted out anything negative at Bush. I look at the GOP trying to obstruct anything Obama tries to do. It goes waaaaay beyond Obama being a progressive. Goes back into this country's dark & ugly past dealing with the never dying bullshit called "racism". It's not that Obama is super progressive, because he's not. But it's because he's Black and intelligent. The GOP ,mostly old white men. Are having a hard time dealing with this. Actually, I am too, as I'm extremely tired.

Bottomline for me,tax cuts for wealthy should be allowed to expire. Why should they get theirs when funding for unemployment got voted down by the GOP. Sometimes I can't believe these bastards. But one day America will wake up. Hopefully it comes sooner than later. To tired to write, gotta get some sleep ASAP.

aloha

 

[bajafox]

and how did that happen? Through deregulating everything, that's how that happened!

You can blame the Republicans for deregulating but they never grabbed the hand of a person making $35k a year to sign an interest only loan on a $400k house. That blame goes to the morons who bought what they couldn't afford in the first place.

 

[doc111]

and how did that happen? Through deregulating everything, that's how that happened!

With regards to extending the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, it's just plan and simple bad math! I keep hearing the same old GOP talking point bullshit how we need the tax cut for the wealthy. They are the ones who are creating jobs!! 8 years under Bush and things didn't change. So what makes people like McConnell keep thinking jobs will come from wealthy. Yet, the same people refuse to extend unemployment! Over 2 million folks lose their benefits tonight at midnight! To extend these folks benefits through Feb. would have been a lot cheaper than a 700 billion price tag. Plus it's the moral thing to do.

People need to wake up and smell the coffee. At first I was extremely pissed off at Obama for what is happening in our great nation, our country was falling apart, and people were blaming this country's first African-American President. Well actually half African-American. "You Lie", screamed Joe Wilson at Obama's first State of the Union address. I can still hear that,and I wonder why Joe Wilson never stood up and yelled "you lie", to George W. Bush. Because if anybody lied it was this man in the oval office before Obama,GW Bush. But of course Joe Wilson would have never shouted out anything negative at Bush. I look at the GOP trying to obstruct anything Obama tries to do. It goes waaaaay beyond Obama being a progressive. Goes back into this country's dark & ugly past dealing with the never dying bullshit called "racism". It's not that Obama is super progressive, because he's not. But it's because he's Black and intelligent. The GOP ,mostly old white men. Are having a hard time dealing with this. Actually, I am too, as I'm extremely tired.

Bottomline for me,tax cuts for wealthy should be allowed to expire. Why should they get theirs when funding for unemployment got voted down by the GOP. Sometimes I can't believe these bastards. But one day America will wake up. Hopefully it comes sooner than later. To tired to write, gotta get some sleep ASAP.

aloha

So, do you work for MSNBC or NPR? lol! You libs never disappoint!

 

[NoDrama]

As soon as someone brings race into the debate as their foundation of the argument they pretty much instantly lose all credibility on the subject. You can blame all the world problems on Racism against Obama, but it doesn't make any of it true.

 

[Puna Bud]

As soon as someone brings race into the debate as their foundation of the argument they pretty much instantly lose all credibility on the subject. You can blame all the world problems on Racism against Obama, but it doesn't make any of it true.

what I'm saying is the Obama administration has been stonewalled by the GOP the entire past two years. Yet the Dems were able to get a few things passed. Health Care Reform being the major victory for Obama. Yet the GOP has opposed Obama on everything. Even ideas he got from the GOP. As soon as he adapts to one of their ideas, they quickly pull a 180. Obama's biggest mistake is even thinking he could involve the GOP in his plans. He won the election by a mandate. The Dems should have been shoving shit down the throats of the "right", instead of trying to find middle ground.

Let's make something pefectly clear. The GOP likes to say the people have spoken, and now they want real change. Yeah, the nation has spoken via the Tea Party movement. But they also have their eyes on the GOP, and they are far worse than the democrats with spending.

Two million people lost their benefits last night because some high and mighty people on the right thought it's their moral responsibility to make sure these individuals not get a single dime more. These people on the right make me sick! How can you allow people to suffer, and wanna give a tax cut to folks who don't even need it!?
I keep hearing the pundits on the right keeping talking about how big our Government is, and the need to make it smaller. I say, "bullshit" to that! I'm 58 years old. Never in my almost 60 years have I ever seen the Government smaller than it is today! These Multinational Corp. have caused America to really faulter, and what's left of the smaller middle class on the right haven't figured it out yet! There those who want America returned to the days of private industry days. The pre-1930 era. You know, when there was no middle class. Just the rich, and the extremely poor. It's ashame that some individuals here of all forums (A pro cannabis forum), have to knock the people who don't have.

L:isten folks, by extending the unemployment benefits, it helps our economy way more than Bush Tax cuts for the upper 2%. Why can't people see that?

 

[medicineman]

Fuck extending tax cuts for rich dicks. Extend unemployment benefits to millions of people that cannot find a job. Bring back our jobs so these unemployed can resume their life. Most of the unemployed cannot really live comfortable on unemployment, But the rich can certainly live comfortable, even when their taxes are raised 3%..Don't believe the bullshit being spoon fed us on FOX, they are bought and payed for by corporate America, rich dicks, and anti people people.

 

[Dan Kone]

Actually the money was transferred to China, you can stop blaming the well off for all of the problems of this country.

Ignorant to history? I would say that were you , not us.

The whole "I know you are but what am I" thing doesn't always work. The wealthy are earning more than they ever have since the era of the robber barons. Their taxes are historically low even with a tax increase, yet you're referring to that as a "mugging". It's a bunch of bs and you know it. You're either being very dishonest or completely willfully ignorant, not sure which.

 

[Dan Kone]

You can blame the Republicans for deregulating but they never grabbed the hand of a person making $35k a year to sign an interest only loan on a $400k house. That blame goes to the morons who bought what they couldn't afford in the first place.

Ok sure, that's true but those loans were very misleading. A lot of people got into bad loans out of pure greed, others were conned into them.

Either way you can blame conservatives entirely for the existence of those loans in the first place. Deregulation is what allowed those loans to be sold. Since banks could now sell those loans avoiding all risk when they defaulted, they didn't care about handing them out to people who couldn't afford them. Deregulation and lack of actual regulators is what allowed these mortgages to be sold to people as low risk investments.

This big scam is a direct result of financial deregulation. None of this could have happened in the 90's. It was illegal then. Anyone suggesting financial deregulation as a solution to a problem caused by financial deregulation is insane. That's just using gasoline as a solution to a fire.