LED USERS 1watt vs 3watt bulbs and higher bulbs...whats your take?

solarguy

solarguy

Active Member
I use the Haight Solid State lights that use 6 watt bulbs but their light have no fans, i believe that means their is less "overhead" meaning their 180 watts probably puts out close to 180 watts...


I believe that LED lights with greater wattage can and do penetrate deeper providing a more healthy plant not just at the canopy...bigger buds down below. my lights i use now with 6 watt bulbs have very healthy leaves 3 feet below the canopy...



Right now i am engineering my own LED light and doing a lot of research and am wondering what the community thinks? i found this article below, i thought would help people understand what im talking about...


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http://www.myhydroponicgardening.com/the-cannabis-growers-guide-to-led-grow-lights-1w-versus-3w-and-higher/

The LED grow light industry is very competitive right now with many companies jockeying to position themselves as the industry leaders. This is good on one hand as the competition pushes the industry towards innovations and improvements which means a more solid product for end users. However, the downside here is that as some manufacturers push the technology towards future improvements, others focus on marketing hype as their foothold in the niche. One common place to see this is when talking about the wattage of individual diodes. While some companies offer an absurd 5W and 6W diodes, the real debate right now is 1W vs 3w.
1W VS 3W Diodes - Is Bigger, Better?

Common sense would dictate that a 3W LED would emit more intense and brighter light than a 1W. This is correct, however, this is not the whole story as some manufacturers claim. A single 3W LED will outshine a single 1W LED but it does not do so on a 3 to 1 basis. To be more clear: a 3W LED is not 3x as bright, powerful, or intense as a 1W LED. Expanding upon this, we can reach the conclusion that 3x1W LEDs will be brighter, more powerful, and more intense than a single 3W LED and the reason comes down to efficiency.
LED Grow Light Efficiency

So how can it be that 3W is really less than 3x1W? It revolves around the design of LED chips and the circuitry used to power the diode. For an LED module (chip and diode) to run, it takes a certain amount of energy (overhead) to power it up. What this means is that a 1W module will not produce an entire watt of light energy due to the overhead of powering the circuitry. Similarly, a 3W module does not produce three watts of light intensity either. The amount of overhead depends on many factors - most of which are beyond the scope of this article but suffice to say that higher wattage LED modules have more overhead in order to operate.
In real terms, this means that a good 90W LED grow light using all 1W LEDs actually operates on about 80-85 watts. That same 90W light using all 3W diodes would consume only about 50-55 watts. I think we can all agree that 85W is greater than 55W, right? This trend is evident in all LED grow lights, no matter if they utilize 3W, 5W, 6W or higher. In an industry that knows the critical role that light intensity plays in getting big yields, cannabis growers should quickly realize that using 1W LEDs is one of the keys to success.
So those side-by-side pictures of LED grow lights showing how bright a 3W VS 1W LEDs is not as impressive anymore, huh?
Do 3W Diodes Have Their Place?

LED grow lights using 3W diodes will look brighter to the human eye. A single 3W LED does, in fact, have more penetrating power than a single 1W LED. However, when you compare apples to apples, an LED grow light using all 1W LEDs will have more canopy penetrating power than one using only 3W LEDs because it is more efficient. When more power is left over to actually light the diode, there is more light available to grow your plants.
Why Use 3W LEDs In Grow Lights?

Well . . . there really is no reason to. Based on current technology, the 1W diode is, by far, the most efficient use of energy. If you take the time to educate yourself on other factors such as wavelengths used, grow light height, LED beam angle, and others, it is easy to have great yields with LED grow lights.




I use the Haight Solid State lights that use 6 watt bulbs but their light have no fans, i believe that means their is less "overhead" meaning their 180 watts probably puts out close to 180 watts...


I believe that LED lights with greater wattage can and do penetrate deeper providing a more healthy plant not just at the canopy...


Right now i am engineering my own LED light and doing a lot of research and am wondering what the community thinks?
 
Crimble

Crimble

Well-Known Member
NO WAY DO 3W LED's GIVE MORE PAR THEN 3 @ 1W LED'S

Always go w/ more 1W LED's then 3W or 6W, the math is simple. In terms of Measurable Usable light for the human Eye or Plant, a 3 watt LED will not produce more than 3 @ 1w, its something close like each 3W produces 285 of x (where x = a measurable unit) while a 1W will produce 100 of x. So you see, 3 @ 1W will produce 300 while a 3W only would produce 285. And you can always get smaller 1W LED's so coverage area would win out to 1W LED. That's why I go with Growl LED www.ledgrowlight.com, they use American made 1W Cree LED's and they produce they best with the most efficient power draw.

"I believe that LED lights with greater wattage can and do penetrate deeper providing a more healthy plant not just at the canopy..."

Also, it wouldn't be so much wattage that would increase canopy penitration, for that I would use more focused LED's like 90's or 60's.
 
solarguy

solarguy

Active Member
im using Haight Solid State, here are some pics below...these guys use 6watt cree bulbs at 140 degree lense, it seems like it is penetrating deep enough and still providing a wide enough footprint...

i understand that you get more true wattage on smaller multiple LEDs but i don't agree or understand how 3 1watt bulbs could penetrate deeper than 1 3watt bulb. You either compromise a bit of coverage or a bit of penetration it seems.....unless you just use one big ass 6watt bulb and enough to where coverage or penetration wasn't an issue.

004.jpg002.jpg005.jpg011.jpg001.jpg009.jpg008.jpg012.jpg
 
Crimble

Crimble

Well-Known Member
"LEDs but i don't agree or understand how 3 1watt bulbs could penetrate deeper than 1 3watt bulb."

Hi Solarguy, great pics BTW - Think of Canopy penetration in the way of a piece of cardboard covering over your garden. Based on light getting through to the bottom of your garden, would a 3W or a 1W penetrate the cardboard any differently or significantly? Now think of your canopy as having cardboard placed over it (in the form of THICK vegetation with some areas to "let light pass") a 3W or a 1W will cast light in the same manner and direction 3's will carry more of it but what you need are more focused LED lenses to let light "squeeze" through those small openings otherwise a wide cast will be too faint to affect your harvest. (Watch out though, too focussed and you burn holes on your plants, like you would using the wrong kind of reflection!)
Check out Growl LED, they have the most advanced LED GrowLights in the industry. www.ledgrowlight.com:peace:
 
Stalwart

Stalwart

Well-Known Member
It's hardly so simple as that crimble especially if the leaves have the more sativaesque leaf form; then there's a heck of a lot of penetration if you've ever gotten one going from bag seed.
 
solarguy

solarguy

Active Member
i disagree, IMO another benefit to the larger LED bulbs is the panel can be bigger, forming a larger footprint that penetrates deeper....and yes i believe a 3 watt bulb will penetrate deeper.
 
D

deputydawg

Member
solarguy said:
and yes i believe a 3 watt bulb will penetrate deeper.
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Yes - a single 3 w will penetrate deeper than a single 1 w . . . but 3 x 1 w diodes are more efficient and have more penetration ability than a single 3 w. If you do the math, there is no reason to have more than a 1w bulb at the present state of the technology.
 
Hudsonvalley82

Hudsonvalley82

Well-Known Member
Crimble said:
"LEDs but i don't agree or understand how 3 1watt bulbs could penetrate deeper than 1 3watt bulb."

Hi Solarguy, great pics BTW - Think of Canopy penetration in the way of a piece of cardboard covering over your garden. Based on light getting through to the bottom of your garden, would a 3W or a 1W penetrate the cardboard any differently or significantly? Now think of your canopy as having cardboard placed over it (in the form of THICK vegetation with some areas to "let light pass") a 3W or a 1W will cast light in the same manner and direction 3's will carry more of it but what you need are more focused LED lenses to let light "squeeze" through those small openings otherwise a wide cast will be too faint to affect your harvest. (Watch out though, too focussed and you burn holes on your plants, like you would using the wrong kind of reflection!)
Check out Growl LED, they have the most advanced LED GrowLights in the industry. www.ledgrowlight.com:peace:
Click to expand...
The only problem I have with this logic is that that a panel has a set amount of LEDs on it. If you have 90 1w leds and 90 3w leds, the 3w's WILL penetrate more and produce more light. Your take a wattage by wattage stand point instead of a diode by diode stand point. a 300 1W leds take up more panel space, and therefore have a much larger dispersion, resulting in lower leaf penetration. 100 3W leds will penetrate much better than the 1W set up, as it focuses that wattage and emits from a smaller surface area. So sure, 3 1w leds are better than 1 3w superficially. However, 3 3W leds are much better than 3 1W leds.
 
D

deputydawg

Member
Hudsonvalley82 said:
. . . However, 3 3W leds are much better than 3 1W leds.
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Not trying to be a prick but . . . no kidding! You are not comparing apples to apples here. 3x3w=9w and 3x1w=3w . . . so yes, from a wattage stand point, 9w > 3w. But the point from the article is about EFFICIENCY.

A 1w diode emits about 0.9W of light (depending on the brand of diode). A 3w diode emits about 1.5-1.75W of light (again, depending upon brand of diode). As you can see, a 3w diode is a less efficient use of energy.

So, which is more? 2.7w (0.9w x 3) or 1.75w? Wouldn't you want more wattage going to your plant? Just because a diode is 3W does not mean it has some magical penetration powers - it just has more wattage available to penetrate than a SINGLE 1w. But when you put them together in a 90W led grow light here is what you get:

90W Light with 90x1Wx0.9W = approx 80W available to grow

OR

90W Light with 30x3Wx1.75w = approx 52.5W available to grow

Also - If we take your example . . .

300x1Wx0.9w = approx 270W available to grow

OR

100x3Wx1.75w = approx 175W available to grow

You don't really gain anything space-wise either by using just 3w LEDs as they usually have to be spaced further apart than the 1w to compensate for the extra heat and circuitry.

Until the efficiency increases for diodes>1w . . . there is no use for them in my lights.
 
Grumpy Old Dreamer

Grumpy Old Dreamer

Well-Known Member
I'm still unconvinced by all of the marketing hype around cramming generic mass produced LEDs into a housing and calling it a grow light - maybe they work, maybe they could do it better.
There are so many crap panels for sale, and just because a panel is better than the cheap Chinese panels it doesn't mean that it is actually a good grow light.
Using different sized bulbs with different spectrums in different arrangements seems to be a lot trial and error, and pretty much none of the bulbs are specifically made with horticulture in mind.

Time will tell, but I don't think that the future LED grow lights will be panels full of generic bulbs.
 
D

deputydawg

Member
Just FYI - I just checked and I was being rather generous in the efficiency of the 3w . . . if you take a look at one of the brands that have a sponsored advert in Google (name not important, not out to bash a company). Their "extreme flower" 120W, all 3w light, you will find that each 3w diode on their board offers a whopping 1.32W. Three times the wattage with only 30% more output??!! On top of that, you are paying 56% MORE for your light ($249 vs $389).
 
D

deputydawg

Member
Hudsonvalley82 said:
So how come headlights and industrial applications of LEDs use higher wattages?
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Illumination vs growing . . . two totally different critters. Brightness does not equal growing ability and lumens don't mean squat, as we all know. For the auto industry for example, they are trying to get the brightest light out of a very confined foot print . . . which means you can't just stuff a bunch of 1W diodes in there, they must be more concentrated.

Hudsonvalley82 said:
Check this out, specifically about the 1W and 3W efficiency myth:
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I see a lot wrong with this site you bring up . . .

First they talk about the "efficiency myth" as if it is a fallacy yet they further prove the point that 3W diodes are less efficient than 1W. While most crappy, poorly researched imports may only draw 0.5-0.7w per 1w diode, decent ones are pulling 0.9w with no issue. They further prove the point I make above that you need more USEABLE light for your plants and brag about their 3w diode that produces 2.5W . . . that's great and all, much more efficient than most 3w diodes, however 0.9x3 = 2.7w which is still more than 2.5w . . . I will still stick with 1w diodes. Not to mention the fact that the 3w diodes are more expensive per diode than 3x1w.

Second - you see lumens marked on every product. Again, lumens don't mean jack if your light isn't targeted.

Third - Black housings?! Really? I thought we were trying to reflect the light to the plants, not get it absorbed by the light casing . . .
 
Spuzzum

Spuzzum

Well-Known Member
Crimble said:
Think of Canopy penetration in the way of a piece of cardboard covering over your garden. Based on light getting through to the bottom of your garden, would a 3W or a 1W penetrate the cardboard any differently or significantly? Now think of your canopy as having cardboard placed over it (in the form of THICK vegetation with some areas to "let light pass") a 3W or a 1W will cast light in the same manner and direction 3's will carry more of it but what you need are more focused LED lenses to let light "squeeze" through those small openings otherwise a wide cast will be too faint to affect your harvest. (Watch out though, too focussed and you burn holes on your plants, like you would using the wrong kind of reflection!)
Click to expand...

Exactly! Ever walk through a forest or a park with tall trees? Here in Vancouver, in the middle of Stanley Park, in the middle of summer, at high noon.. you're pretty well shaded. And that's the sun.. not an led or hid.

When these freshwater/saltwater tank forums such as reefcentral talk about the 3w's having more penetrating power of 1w's.. they're talking about the light having to travel through "water".. salt water's even tougher for the light to penetrate to the bottom at a decent intensity, so they need either higher wattage led's, or tighter focused lenses/reflectors. You already know that a cool-tube reduces lumens.. ever see a water-cooled system? Basically a cool-tube with water. You loose a shitload of lumens in the process because of the water.. not just the tube.

I came across a post on one of these reef sites, and it was mentioned that 1w Cree's have more par at 30" than a 400w MH. .. And this is to grow coral ;)
Some of these 1W LED has more intensity (PAR) than 400W MH at 30" depth, just be careful when you change your light from MH to LED or introduce any new LED.
http://www.reefcentral.net/forums/showthread.php?p=16149056
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So, if you're SoGing, or SCRoGing, then 1w's would allow 24" plants.. with 6" panel distance. As for penetration, as stated earlier.. 1w, 3w, 5w, or 1,000w... light can't pass through a leaf that well for even the sun, so...


But.. if you're growing "bigger" plants, such as bushes or trees... I'd go with the 3w or maybe even 5w. Then the "penetrating" power would come into play.. have a taller plant, so light needs to travel further.

But they won't penetrate the foliage any better than the 1w.
 
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