1st DWC problem N def? but why

[oldschooltofu]

can someone tell me what is going on here?
this is my second hydro, 1st dwc
looks like N diffeciency, but why?

my stats are
TGA agent orange from seed
1300-1400 ppm
4 gal o water in each bucket, transplaneted into these DWC buckets 1 week ago, so new roots are now plentyfull and touching water.
35watt air pump with Medium cylinder air stones 1 in each bucket.
ph 6 (using drops, test is Yellow)
air temps are75ish
600w HPS is on 24/7. (they were started under blue T5, but thought i would be flowering these next week, so i threw them under the 600 hps to get them going.

nutrients:
Pure blend pro, hygrozime (10ml per bucket), few drops of superthrive OG, aqua shield as directed, and cal mag as directed, inoculated with roots organizim

the only thing i can see being a problems is cold water. they are in a garage with cold air temps. i dont have a water thermometer, but i just started putting in aquarium heaters, i have 2 and have been rotating them every 6-12 hours to keep the water warmer, but i just started this a few days ago. one plant is showing better leaves. but 4 are still yellowing. roots are hangin in the water. ppms are rising

is it cold water nutrient lock out?
i am starting to see yellow leaves at the bottom (N def). leaves are puffy, thin, light yellow. yellowing on the edges.

thanks
i included a pic of my veg for comparison.

 

[Snow Crash]

Iron and/or Zinc deficient actually.

There could be a few causes.
If the pH of your system is drifting much over 6.0 this could definitely be your issue. Aim for a solid, consistent 5.5pH for the next few days.
Phosphorus toxicity can impact the uptake of these elements. If the low temperatures are impacting uptake of that element in the plant then it could create an imbalance in the mixture... PBP isn't all that heavy on P though...

Personally my money is on the pH.

It also appears that you would benefit from a lot more running in your system.

So... Add more air, dial in the pH, and keep your eyes on the roots. Things should work themselves out without having to add too much of anything else. If they don't then you'll need a micro supplement.

 

[oldschooltofu]

thanks.
the ph did drift a little when adding the oregonisms, which i guess is normal???
the ph test has been yellow to yellow/orange and pretty stable for the past few days. i check it 2 times a day.

can not add anymore air. the pump i have now is super LOUD. so loud, i brought it back to the store to see if i got a defective one. but it was just as loud as the others ones...cant imagine the 8 port one. the one i have is a 6 port.
you can hear the pump at my front door through the garage wall. im legal, but still not good. i even put a piece of ductape on the intake and put a small hole in the tape, like another did on a post on here. and that quieted it down a little but still very loud. if this was in the house i would hear it in every room. couldnt imagine sleeping in the same room with it.

the roots look great, will take a pic.
question: now that the roots are hanging in the water i should lower it to about 3 gallons?

 

[Weedler]

I wish I could run 1300-1400 PPM none of my girls like anything over 900 PPM.

 

[Weedler]

Just re-read your post I would bet your frying those girls, I would drop PPM just based on my results running low PPM's some have success that high but I would advise against it just my $0.02

Yes, wants roots hit water lower the level. Using bucket lids in 5ga bucket run 3- 3.5 GA if your using small net cups you can run 4 GA

 

[oldschooltofu]

that was my next idea. thanks.
will bring it back to 800.

i was raising ppm because i was seeing deficiency. but it was prob defic because of the cold water, now that the water is warmer, they are going to burn.

got it. was such a head banger because my veg is doing great.

 

[Weedler]

I always increase by 100 PPM from Veg to Flower and throughout the plants life slow & steady is key. I would flush for 12 hours then add diluted nutrients around 650 PPM then slowly work back up to 800 or your set max flower level, your plant will thank you. I have had good success doing this different stroke for different folks lol

 

[oldschooltofu]

thanks, i think i read that in another post of yours
going to flush now.

 

[oldschooltofu]

ok. so i flushed, changed water, brought the nutrients up to 700ish slowly, foliar fed a little, and everything is looking much better.

i think my problem was too little water in the buckets, so i brought the water level up to the bottom of the baskets....too much air around the roots.
i replaced 3 plants with good plants i had in veg. everything is looking better/growing fast, switched to bloom and pruned.

my pH is still a pain in the ass and expensive to keep stable, every morning and night it is back at 8
so i have been bringing it back down to low 5s 2x a day. which is a lot of work for 5 buckets. now i see why recirculating is better. will it ever stablize for a few days/week? using GH dry mix...other post about this.

then tonight my 8yo 600w ballast started smoking, luckly i was right their and un plugged it. hooked up my 150w temporarily, need to get a new plug tomorrow.

 

[Weedler]

Put a piece of cardboard over the tops of your bucket lids, keep water temps below 70F and you should not see that must fluctuation... What PH down are you using? I use General Hydroponics

 

[oldschooltofu]

i also use GH, but i am mixing the dry crystals. have you ever used them?

water temps are always colder than 70. would too cold water or temp fluctuation also cause ph fluctuations?
i have 2 aquarium heaters, and have been moving them between the 5 buckets but now i cant move them as much because 12/12 now.

should i just bight it and get 3 more heaters so the temps stabilize?

 

[Weedler]

I have noticed ph fluctuations when temp rises / decreases

I would use the liquid ph down (chemical)

 

[jsgamber]

i also use GH, but i am mixing the dry crystals. have you ever used them?

water temps are always colder than 70. would too cold water or temp fluctuation also cause ph fluctuations?
i have 2 aquarium heaters, and have been moving them between the 5 buckets but now i cant move them as much because 12/12 now.

should i just bight it and get 3 more heaters so the temps stabilize?

Hey bro! I've been suffering your pain for the past few weeks and finally have everything dialed. You are at a point where you need better information. If you can afford/save, I'd invest in a $150 combination EC/TDS/pH/Temp meter from Hanna Instruments. Until then, go down to the pet store and pick up a couple of those thermometer strips that stick to the aquarium and put them in your tanks.

Optimal tank temps are between 65* and 72* with optimal being 68*. Temps between 55* and 65* will usually cause plant development to stunt. My water temps were at 58* and even though my plants looked healthy, nothing was developing. It was as if the plant were sleeping.

Regarding water tanks, make sure they are light proof and insulated to slow down changes in temperature and avoid algae. You can also affect water temps up and down by placing frozen water bottles to bring temps down and water bottles filled with hot water to bring temps up.

Your pH fluctuations sound a bit extreme. I start to worry when daily pH drift is more than .4 because something bad is going on. Try skipping any additives and using the basic boost, bloom and Cal/Mag and see if your pH stabilizes. Once it does, then start putting back supplements one at a time to see which one is whacking out your pH. If it doesn't stabilize on basic nutes, then you have something else going on.

Hopefully I'm not stating the obvious for you. I'm scribing to see how things turn out.

 

[oldschooltofu]

thanks jsgamer...i bought a cheap ph meter milwaki from th e bay and the display isnt working correctly, so i resorted back to the drops.
yea i thought having to adjust ph 2x daily was a bit much. i have been spending about an hour a day adjusting pH. even my veg which was once stable PH is now rising to 8 every time i check (6-12 hours). what about BTI/mosquito dunks...would they cause pH up. i have a piece in each bucket because i am paranoid about bugs/gnats, have had them before and dont want them again. so trying to prevent before.

things are looking better. one has some zinc defficiency (twisting leaves) which could be from the ph or that Pureblend pro doesnt have any zinc.

my buckets are black with no light leakage.
cold temps are more of a problem than warm water. i am in a garage right now.

this morning i had a jump in PPM from 6-700 to 11-1200...the hydro store guy said organic nutrients can do that as they become available. so now i have to lower some PPMs tonight when the light comes on. and next time add less and wait a light cycle to measure ppm.

i think my biggest problem was too low a water level, roots were just taking in water and not nutrients. i read an article on HT about organic hydro. it said the long tap roots take in H2O and the short uper roots take in nutrients, so when the water was too low the plants wernt taking in nutrients properly.

i will keep additive out next time i do a complete water change. btw i am only using hygrozyme, aquashield. along with pureblend pro and cal mag

 

[jsgamber]

thanks jsgamer...i bought a cheap ph meter milwaki from th e bay and the display isnt working correctly, so i resorted back to the drops.
yea i thought having to adjust ph 2x daily was a bit much. i have been spending about an hour a day adjusting pH. even my veg which was once stable PH is now rising to 8 every time i check (6-12 hours). what about BTI/mosquito dunks...would they cause pH up. i have a piece in each bucket because i am paranoid about bugs/gnats, have had them before and dont want them again. so trying to prevent before.

things are looking better. one has some zinc defficiency (twisting leaves) which could be from the ph or that Pureblend pro doesnt have any zinc.

my buckets are black with no light leakage.
cold temps are more of a problem than warm water. i am in a garage right now.

this morning i had a jump in PPM from 6-700 to 11-1200...the hydro store guy said organic nutrients can do that as they become available. so now i have to lower some PPMs tonight when the light comes on. and next time add less and wait a light cycle to measure ppm.

i think my biggest problem was too low a water level, roots were just taking in water and not nutrients. i read an article on HT about organic hydro. it said the long tap roots take in H2O and the short uper roots take in nutrients, so when the water was too low the plants wernt taking in nutrients properly.

i will keep additive out next time i do a complete water change. btw i am only using hygrozyme, aquashield. along with pureblend pro and cal mag

My pleasure. It's possible the mosquito dunks are screwing with your pH as they dissolve. If you look at the past few pages of my Variety Grow thread, you'll see how I just conquered root aphids using SM-90. Overnight it killed all the bugs in the tank and revived all the roots. I did a lot of reading after being referred to the product and the only negative press I saw was from people who had far more problems going on and just blamed the SM-90. However, I have read lot's of thread about people having problems with hygrozyme and those were experienced growers. If you follow the same links I did you'll find the referral thread.

Keep your water levels up! I keep my water levels at 1" below the bottom of the pots. As long as your air stones keep the water highly oxygenated, you won't "over water" the plant. When water levels are too low, the water up in the clay pellets and your rooting medium doesn't flush away as fast, leaving the base of the plant soaking in water where the oxygen is depleted because it doesn't get refreshed fast enough. In the early stages of rooting, I even went so far as emptying 1L of water from the tank and pouring it back through the netpot recharging the water in the pellets and root medium with high oxygen water. I was doing the "keep the water low to entice roots". If the roots can tell that something yummy is down below they'll go for it. If the water is inhospitable, then they'll just curl up their toes and stay where they feel it's safer.

I'd recommend at your next water change to flush your netpots with pH water and then fill the tanks only with pH adjusted water. Every so often during the day take a cup of water out of the tank and flush it through the netpot every few hours and note if the pH changes. The next morning if your pH is within .4 from the night before add in your base nutes and the cal/mag, readjust pH back to 5.8 and see how that sits for a day and then try your next supplement and do the same.

If your pH refuses to stay within .4 to .6 per day then you have an issue with something dead in the netpot, or something bad growing in your air stones or air tubes. If that's the case replace them!

In order to troubleshoot issues, you have to always work from a known "good" state, which is usually pH adjusted water. Make only one change at a time so you know exactly what works and what doesn't work. If something bad happens after adding something then remove it and go back to the last known "good" state.

pH, not temps, are usually the main cause of all plant problems in hydro. Once pH is stable and your plants fail to thrive, then you need to start looking at other issues.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do. Just provide some information to allow you to choose your own best path!

and good luck. I'll be watching!

 

[wannaquickee]

I wish I could run 1300-1400 PPM none of my girls like anything over 900 PPM.

why? if they like 900 then shit less money on nutes lol

just cause you use more nutes doesnt mean more yield ;D

 

[oldschooltofu]

here are some pics i took yesterday.
today i did a complete water change with just half PBP grow and Bloom and cal mag. nothing else. set at 400ppm

 

[jsgamber]

View attachment 1393861View attachment 1393864View attachment 1393869View attachment 1393870

here are some pics i took yesterday.
today i did a complete water change with just half PBP grow and Bloom and cal mag. nothing else. set at 400ppm

Dude, your girls look sweet!

One suggestion. Light can filter through the clay pellets into the water. See if you can't cover them with something. I've seen people use Styrofoam bowls cut to size, with a hole and a slot to slip the plant through and turned upside down. Gotta keep algae down for sure.

 

[oldschooltofu]

ok...thought the plant canopy would take care of that? no?

question: 2 of my air stones are barely producing any bubbles. i soaked them in hydrogen proxide for 30min last night while i did a water change and scrubbed them with a wire brush...what can i do to get my bubbles back besides having to buy new ones???

btw: there are only 3 plants in here that were from the og problems plants. i replaced 2 of them with better ones from veg. yes they are looking much better but still a little yellowing in the new growth. i have been pruning and added co2 and they are taking off.

so last night i got the buckets cleaned out and used fresh filtered water, added half grow and half bloom and cal mag to 400ppm the PH last night was at 6, this morning it was above 7. dropped it down to 5.5-5.8 we will see where it is at tonight.

 

[jsgamber]

First you need a canopy. If light is hitting the pellets, it's going through. You should also replace all of your air tubing with black tubing. Petsmart has 25' for $5. The clear tubing acts just like fiber-optic cable and any light that hits the tube will follow right into the tank!

As far as the airstones. H2O2 will kill all the organics including algae. Bleach will kill the microbes. White distilled vinegar acts as an acid and dissolves carbonates and calcium deposits. You can even try using CLR but make sure you rinse and flush the shit out of the stones. If using these doesn't clear them out, then it's time to buy new.

Another issue could be crap in the netpots. Try this. Take a baseline pH reading. Then using a glass measuring cup, fill the cup with the oxygenated water from your tank and flush it through the netpot several times, wait a few minutes then take another reading. If the pH changes, then continue flushing until the pH stabilizes, then readjust the pH in the tank water.

Again take only those suggestions that sound reasonable for YOU in your setup, based on what you know.

Keep trucking!!