TGA SUBCOOL realeasing prob the greatest strain in the world on attitude! PLUSHBERRY

[doowmd]

Frankly I am not sure. That is in part because I am not sure how much I trust the claims of THC percentages. I have said that Herijuana is supposed to be "up to 25%."

Barney's Farm Tangerine Dream claims; "minimum THC levels of 25%". If anyone that is half credible is claiming higher, I do not know about it. And for their strain named LSD Barney's Farm claims 24% THC. .


But is sort of comes down to what sort of high someone prefers, a clear soaring head high, a body stone/couch-lock stone or something between the two more than just THC percentages ... plus unless the ratio/mixture/balance of cannabinoids is not right the highest THC percentage in the world won't get someone as high as something with a lower percentage and a better ratio/mixture/balance of cannabinoids will.

I'm always high dreaming of "being a little higher" when I usually ask ya that question Bricktop, but ty for the response anyway........bout what I figured.....to each his own, depends, etc, etc,just wish I could here something like 'try white rhino, or jilly bean, or killing feildss, etc, it's the best I've ever had!" But instead I get the same ol same ol'. But hey it's cool. And don't take this post the wrong way, just venting really.
Oh...and about the original topic: shit sounds tasty as hell. Tax times a'comin so if the timings right about it coming back into stock I might give it a try for shits and giggles!

 

[Brick Top]

I'm always high dreaming of "being a little higher" when I usually ask ya that question Bricktop, but ty for the response anyway........bout what I figured.....to each his own, depends, etc, etc,just wish I could here something like 'try white rhino, or jilly bean, or killing feildss, etc, it's the best I've ever had!" But instead I get the same ol same ol'. But hey it's cool. And don't take this post the wrong way, just venting really.
Oh...and about the original topic: shit sounds tasty as hell. Tax times a'comin so if the timings right about it coming back into stock I might give it a try for shits and giggles!

I have nothing at all against the original White Rhino that was was renamed Medicine Man other than I am not an indica fan. If someone is an indica fan it's great. I have smoked it and I liked it, but I do not love it. Serious Seeds White Russian is another I could mention that is potent, but does not fit my personal preferences as much as a pure sativa or something that is almost pure sativa, but if someone asks me what is claimed to be highest in THC the best I can do is offer what breeders claim their strains are.

When it comes to a modern era cross the one that might have been the most potent that I have ever grown and smoked came from a basement breeder who sold his gear on the old Cbay auction. It was a G13 X White Russian cross and it was POTENT .. not exactly my cup of tea high-wise because of the degree of indica influence, but it was POTENT-PLUS!

The most potent modern cross I have ever smoked, but not grown, is one I have never been able to find the name of. The father of the college roommate of one of my friend's son's is an entertainment attorney in L.A.. He represents a number of movie stars and other entertainers and a handful of pro athletes. He gets high, his son gets high and his son got his dad to get his dealer to sell quantities, not large quantities, but instead smaller quantities of the strain that he sells to various entertainers and athletes and the like. Through my friend's son I have purchased an ounce now and then over the years when I was taking a break from growing and the stuff comes very close to the level of potency, and fairly similar to the same type of high, as the old school landrace sativas I cut my teeth on and loved so much. The stuff is very, very good, but the guy who gets it claims the dealer has always refused to say what strain it is because he does not want competitors to grow it too. If that is true or not or if for some reason my son's friend's friend knows and just does not want to tell I really cannot say. If I knew the strain I would have said GROW THAT ONE FOR SURE ... but I can't tell you the name of something I do not know the name of.

If you want potency plus take a trip to Vietnam, to the area around Dalat (actually I believe it might be spelled Da Lat) and see if you can find any of the old sativas that were grown there still in their pure form. If you can ... grab every seed you can find and once it is grown, dried and cured strap yourself in as tight as you can because you will feel like you are experiencing a NASA blastoff to the furthest outer reaches of outer space. I have never smoked anything as potent, but there is not much use in recommending something that people cannot purchase.

HEART OF DANKNESS

A Pot Crop Lives Now

by Dr. Dalat
Thu, Jun 16, 2005 12:23 pm
more: grow articles, vietnam, old school weed, dalat, august 2005

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The story of a war-veteran helicopter pilot who never got higher than when he smoked the fabled Vietnamese strains while “in country.” Decades later, he seeks out these same plants to grow for himself at home and to smoke through his retirement.

Story & photos by Dr. Dalat

Thirty-two years ago, I was a 20-year-old fresh-faced and very naive young man sent to Southeast Asia by the US government—caught up, like so many of my generation, in the wide, sweeping net of the final military draft of the last century and sent to fight the war in Vietnam. As a helicopter pilot, I flew all over the central highlands of that country, circa 1969-71, and experienced much of the worst that man has to offer his fellow man, but also plenty of the best. One of my most remarkable memories was discovering a plantation of 30-foot-tall cannabis sativa trees in a very isolated province called Dalat.

Dalat at that time was way off the beaten path. Nestled between two mountain ranges at an altitude of around 4,500 feet and really only accessible from the air (I had a distinct advantage because of my air mobility), the region was rumored amongst the grunts to be the birthplace of Ho Chi Minh, North Vietnam’s spiritual and political leader, and therefore off limits to the enemy Viet Cong. The truth of the matter was, of course, quite different. In reality, the VC used Dalat for R&R (rest and relaxation) for their troops and therefore, quite wisely, refrained from initiating any action in and around the province. In effect, both sides considered it an unofficial “no-fire zone.”

While on one of my many fly-ins to Dalat City, I met the owner of the cannabis plantation—a wonderful older French gentleman who was always more than kind when it came to sharing his bounty. For our part, those of us in the helicopter crews kept him well stocked with much-needed and hard-to-get staples and supplies that we would scavenge from the various US base mess halls and supply depots that we visited regularly.

The best of the sativas came from the highland areas of Vietnam, places like Ban Me Thuot and Pleiku, and were similar to the highland Thai sativas in almost all respects. The very best of all were grown in the province of Dalat—cultivated for centuries by the indigenous tribes of mountain people known as Montagnards (although in their language, they refer to themselves as “Human Beings&#8221, these crops produced without a doubt the most remarkable and mind-expanding herb I’ve ever experienced.

Keep in mind that the Montagnard people are an ancient culture, with no real written record—only stories passed down from generation to generation. I recall most vividly sitting amongst the tribal chieftains and listening to them chant stories about “the beginnings of time” and how cannabis had been with them forever to guide them on their spiritual journey of pantheism. They have two words in their language for cannabis. The first translates loosely as “Path to the Gods.” The second is used only if you smoke too much of this fine herb, and it describes the state of mind of someone who has done just that. It translates simply as “The Mind of God.”

For many of us who served the “Masters of War” in those days, Vietnamese pot became our path to sanity, our lifeline. It was a simple yet very effective way of maintaining peace of mind amidst the chaos of the conflict—an escape from the horrendous reality of our daily lives. From 1964 to 1974, thousands of US soldiers came home from the war carrying as much of this “boo” with them as possible—introducing the exotic smokes of Southeast Asia to the world at large, the seeds of which would provide the main genetic building blocks for many modern strains of cannabis. Ask anyone who came of age during that time, and you’ll notice a quick flash of the eyes as their mind recalls the experience of smoking “the jungle kind.” Though often ridiculed by younger generations as the quaint musings of aging hippies, the sad fact remains that most folks younger than 45 simply have never experienced the mind-bending high of the pure land-race sativa strains of Southeast Asia.

When it comes to SubCool/TGA strains, I have my reasons for not growing and smoking them and at least to me they are totally valid, so I will leave that to all of the rest of you who care too do so.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

awesome thread!

it seems that there is a real love/hate thing on this board re TGA/Subcool.
3 years ago it was the same but with Shanitbaba. Every noob chanted his name as a god, and every old hack who was bored of this cult worshipping aspect told them to STFU.

TGA/Subcool seeds are some of the best for the price. That does not mean that they are THE BEST, but they are very good value for money. This is why the noobs love him, cause they can afford him.
it was the same with Mr Nice seeds before they were shut down in switzerland or wherever it was. Some people even thought Mr Nice was Shantibaba, which is not true. I still really want some Mr Nice Mango Haze.

I do know that Brick Top knows his stuff. I also notice that he doesnt name any available seed as THE BEST, he just mentions unavailable strains. While they may be awesome strains, its not helpfull.
So Brick, list a few of the currently commercially available SEEDS that can be bought that you rate as great. End the discussion.

 

[Brick Top]

Some people even thought Mr Nice was Shantibaba, which is not true.

There has always been some confusion among some about Mr. Nice and Shantibaba. Some thought that because Howard Marks is Mr. Nice that Mr. Nice Seeds was owned by Howard Marks and others who knew that Mr. Nice Seeds is owned by Shantibaba wrongly assumed that made him Mr. Nice.

I do know that Brick Top knows his stuff. I also notice that he doesnt name any available seed as THE BEST,

"The Best" is subjective. What is; "the best to me" might be terrible in someone else's opinion.

he just mentions unavailable strains.

You either need to read more of my messages, maybe do a search or twenty because I have listed a number of strains a number of times that I like very much and that are available through any number of seedbanks.

While they may be awesome strains, its not helpfull.

Do you need my help to tell you what you like?

So Brick, list a few of the currently commercially available SEEDS that can be bought that you rate as great. End the discussion.

Do I really need too do that AGAIN?

Here are some of the various strains that I have grown over the years that I enjoyed more than most others. I will not claim any or all to be; "the best" or; "great." I will only say that they best fit my taste, that I liked them all very much, enough that some of them I have grown a handful or more times.

In no particular order:

Reefermans Seeds - Phnom Penh Aka: Cambodian

Reefermans Seeds - Willie Nelson

Reefermans Seeds - Haze bros original Haze

Reefermans Seeds - Nepalese

Reefermans Seeds - Accidental Haze

Serious Seeds - Kali Mist

Serious Seeds - AK47

Serious Seeds - Bubble Gum

Sensi Seeds - Jack Herer

Mr Nice Seedbank - Black Widow

Mr Nice Seedbank - Neville's Haze

Mr Nice Seedbank - Super Silver Haze

Sagarmatha Seeds - Western Winds

I tend to prefer true sativas and crosses that are mostly sativa, even if in a few cases they are only slightly more sativa, so I listed them first, but I do enjoy a few indica dominant strains too. It is nice to have a little variety now and then. Here are a few I have enjoyed and that are readily available to the public, just as every strain listed above it readily available to the public.

Mr Nice Seedbank - Medicine Man

Serious Seeds - White Russian

Reefermans Seeds - Cherry Bomb Indica

Sagarmatha Seeds - Slyder

Sagarmatha Seeds - Mangolian Indica

Sagarmatha Seeds - Matanuska Tundra

Would you also care to know what movies I enjoy the most or what brand of bathroom tissue I normally use? How about if I wear briefs or boxers, or if I just swing free, care to know that too?

There is not a strain above, and also others I did not take the time to include, that I have not mentioned any number of times as being ones that I like, that I enjoy, that going by my likes and dislikes and personal preferences are ones I would say are very good strains from quality breeders and that are better than the 'flavor of the month' strains that all the bubble-gummers here go all Lady Gaga over.

In case you hadn't noticed there are a number of Cup winners in that list, some of them that have won multiple Cups over a number of years. Not all were 1st place, some were only 2nd place or 3rd place, but most of them still won something at some time or another in some competition, or in numerous competitions.

Now let me see ... being the old man that I am my memory is not what it used too be ... so let's see .. how many Cups has SubCool won? Hummmmm ... I seem to come up with ZERO wins. Am I correct or did he win something I am unaware of?

But I forgot ... he claims all Cups are bought and paid for, all achieved by bribes and not ever the result of quality breeding by truly skilled breeders ... so he is above entering his strains.

That is a handy way to keep from being embarrassed when you would lose year after year after year ... make no attempt and you cannot fail ... but you can still claim anything you desire because who can prove you too be wrong ... and that is how PlushBerry is; "probably the greatest strain in the world!"

 

[cerberus]

reading is fundamental

 

[tardis]

Serious Seeds - Kali Mist

Sagarmatha Seeds - Western Winds

Since Kali Mist and Western Winds are supposed to be the same thing, which one was better smoke in your opinion? Also vhs or betamax?

 

[Brick Top]

Since Kali Mist and Western Winds are supposed to be the same thing, which one was better smoke in your opinion?

A number of strains over the years that were very similar have been claimed to have been the same thing but I never believed Kali Mist and Western Winds; "to be the same thing," as in identical genetics, but I have said there are real similarities and have told people who could not shell out the price of Kali Mist to give Western Winds a try because I believe it to be as close to Kali Mist as they would find.

When I have grown them their finishing times, physical appearance, flowering stretch, yields, odor and flavor were different enough that while the highs were very similar I found it difficult to believe they were the very same genetics, and since I have grown each several times, all from seeds, I doubt it was just a phenotype difference that would explain the differences between the two mentioned.

I could believe that they both came from the same strain lines, but not the same actual genetics, as in the same parent plants, which would more or less make one or the other a knockoff that unlike other knockoffs did not share the same name with the other.

In my opinion Kali Mist is better but not so much better that I would ever pass on growing Western Winds or not recommend it.

Also vhs or betamax?

I never had a Betamax .. I had a couple VHS players though ....but I am more of a Blu-ray sort of guy actually ....... though I would sort of like to see 8-tracks make a comeback, just for the nostalgia thing though. It was always fun having them unwound running all through the house from room to room so I could splice a break and then rewind them.

 

[Grumpy Old Dreamer]

.. how many Cups has SubCool won? Hummmmm ... I seem to come up with ZERO wins. Am I correct or did he win something I am unaware of?

Would I be right in assuming that for a "strain" to stand any chance of winning anything, the strain in question needs to have a certain degree of stability?
Subcool's "strains" seem to have so many possible phenotypes that I don't personally refer to them as strains. I feel that as a breeder he has only done half the job - he needs to spend a lot more time and effort to reduce the number of phenotypes.
It amazes me when I read of people growing a shitload of seeds in the hope of finding a specific phenotype - for the money you pay, you should not have to hope and prey that you get the pheno you wanted (and paid for).

I'm not saying that he hasn't bred good "strains", but he needs to finish the job.

 

[Tigers Wood]

anyone believing winning a cup means anything is living in the 90's

this new plant looks decent but a comment or 2 he makes leads me to believe it could possibly fall short of being the best or even a top 10 all time

thats all i have to say about it and not going to get further into a debate

 

[Brick Top]

Would I be right in assuming that for a "strain" to stand any chance of winning anything, the strain in question needs to have a certain degree of stability?
Subcool's "strains" seem to have so many possible phenotypes that I don't personally refer to them as strains. I feel that as a breeder he has only done half the job - he needs to spend a lot more time and effort to reduce the number of phenotypes.
It amazes me when I read of people growing a shitload of seeds in the hope of finding a specific phenotype - for the money you pay, you should not have to hope and prey that you get the pheno you wanted (and paid for).

I'm not saying that he hasn't bred good "strains", but he needs to finish the job.

I would agree ... and in his case he likes to use an F2 in many of his crosses and that always increases the number of phenotypes. But he's always done that and his gear has always had multiple phenotypes for people to have to wade through in hopes of finding the good phenotype. If you find it you are very lucky and you will likely like it, but considering the odds and risk his gear should be priced more Green House Seeds gear or K.C. Brains gear than priced like the true top breeders gear. But then slapping a high price on something is one way of creating the false impression that it has to be high quality and worth the price because if it were not, then it would be cheaper, or at least that is what some want you to think when you look at the price of their gear.

 

[Unnk]

honestly from what ive grown from subcool i had a 6 fems outa 10 seeds on a jtr 10 pack and the representation wasnt all over the place had 2 diff pheno's one more pine one more lemon i just dont understand where ppl get these crazy outcomes from his seeds and i still order from other places but i still cant find a high to compete with this jtr and ive grown

dna's la woman , sharksbreath ,hashplant haze

and

mr nice's medicine man, ssh

out of all those the jtr still topped in buzz quality

 

[Brick Top]

honestly from what ive grown from subcool i had a 6 fems outa 10 seeds on a jtr 10 pack and the representation wasnt all over the place had 2 diff pheno's one more pine one more lemon i just dont understand where ppl get these crazy outcomes from his seeds.

It's the luck of the draw just like how one person will purchase a pack of 10 regular beans and get 9 or 10 females and someone else will get 6 females and someone else will get 2 or 1 or none. You just never know if lady luck will be with you or not. Some people will not see many phenotypes and others will see so much variation they they could easily believe they were sent a pack of mixed strains. This is nothing new to his gear, it has been something people have complained about ever since I first heard of his line a number of years back. There is always someone who is totally satisfied and loves it and there is always someone who is totally dissatisfied and hates it and it comes largely from a lack of consistency in phenotypes.

 

[littleflavio]

There has always been some confusion among some about Mr. Nice and Shantibaba. Some thought that because Howard Marks is Mr. Nice that Mr. Nice Seeds was owned by Howard Marks and others who knew that Mr. Nice Seeds is owned by Shantibaba wrongly assumed that made him Mr. Nice.


"The Best" is subjective. What is; "the best to me" might be terrible in someone else's opinion.


You either need to read more of my messages, maybe do a search or twenty because I have listed a number of strains a number of times that I like very much and that are available through any number of seedbanks.





Do you need my help to tell you what you like?



Do I really need too do that AGAIN?

Here are some of the various strains that I have grown over the years that I enjoyed more than most others. I will not claim any or all to be; "the best" or; "great." I will only say that they best fit my taste, that I liked them all very much, enough that some of them I have grown a handful or more times.

In no particular order:

Reefermans Seeds - Phnom Penh Aka: Cambodian

Reefermans Seeds - Willie Nelson

Reefermans Seeds - Haze bros original Haze

Reefermans Seeds - Nepalese

Reefermans Seeds - Accidental Haze

Serious Seeds - Kali Mist

Serious Seeds - AK47

Serious Seeds - Bubble Gum

Sensi Seeds - Jack Herer

Mr Nice Seedbank - Black Widow

Mr Nice Seedbank - Neville's Haze

Mr Nice Seedbank - Super Silver Haze

Sagarmatha Seeds - Western Winds

I tend to prefer true sativas and crosses that are mostly sativa, even if in a few cases they are only slightly more sativa, so I listed them first, but I do enjoy a few indica dominant strains too. It is nice to have a little variety now and then. Here are a few I have enjoyed and that are readily available to the public, just as every strain listed above it readily available to the public.

Mr Nice Seedbank - Medicine Man

Serious Seeds - White Russian

Reefermans Seeds - Cherry Bomb Indica

Sagarmatha Seeds - Slyder

Sagarmatha Seeds - Mangolian Indica

Sagarmatha Seeds - Matanuska Tundra

Would you also care to know what movies I enjoy the most or what brand of bathroom tissue I normally use? How about if I wear briefs or boxers, or if I just swing free, care to know that too?

There is not a strain above, and also others I did not take the time to include, that I have not mentioned any number of times as being ones that I like, that I enjoy, that going by my likes and dislikes and personal preferences are ones I would say are very good strains from quality breeders and that are better than the 'flavor of the month' strains that all the bubble-gummers here go all Lady Gaga over.

In case you hadn't noticed there are a number of Cup winners in that list, some of them that have won multiple Cups over a number of years. Not all were 1st place, some were only 2nd place or 3rd place, but most of them still won something at some time or another in some competition, or in numerous competitions.

Now let me see ... being the old man that I am my memory is not what it used too be ... so let's see .. how many Cups has SubCool won? Hummmmm ... I seem to come up with ZERO wins. Am I correct or did he win something I am unaware of?

But I forgot ... he claims all Cups are bought and paid for, all achieved by bribes and not ever the result of quality breeding by truly skilled breeders ... so he is above entering his strains.

That is a handy way to keep from being embarrassed when you would lose year after year after year ... make no attempt and you cannot fail ... but you can still claim anything you desire because who can prove you too be wrong ... and that is how PlushBerry is; "probably the greatest strain in the world!"

im getting that chery bomb indica from reeferman...hey brick, have you tried any new strains lately? i know you want the old school, but just curiouse if you have tried any strains from cali connect or tga that u liked.

 

[doowmd]

im getting that chery bomb indica from reeferman...hey brick, have you tried any new strains lately? i know you want the old school, but just curiouse if you have tried any strains from cali connect or tga that u liked.

It was out of stock on attitude. Where'd ya find it?

 

[Pipe Dream]

hemp depot im sure.

 

[doowmd]

They had a description but it didn't say wether or not it was in stock. plus you have to send payment THEN they send your package which doubles the wait time AND they say lost or confiscated packages are not their responsibility, which I can understand, but y not offer a guarantee for a lil' extra like other places (ahem *tude,singleseedcenter*).

 

[Brick Top]

im getting that chery bomb indica from reeferman...hey brick, have you tried any new strains lately? i know you want the old school, but just curiouse if you have tried any strains from cali connect or tga that u liked.

I will try a new or newish strain now and then if I read enough good things about it and it is not to heavy of an indica. If they offer feminized beans, which I am not a major fan of, I tend to purchase two beans of various newer strains from The Single Seed Center rather whole packs and find out if I like them enough to want to grow more. I have not tried any of the Cali Connection line but I figure I will get around to it but I will pass on the SubCool/TGA line.

One thing I do like to do now and then is compare knockoffs of top quality strains to the originals when I read that a knockoff is supposedly pretty good. I like to find out for myself if it is close or not to the original and in what ways one might differ from the other. I will do the same thing, purchase two seeds of a knockoff, if they are feminized, and give them a go.

When it comes to just trying something new I am not as anti-newer strains as I might seem. I do like to give certain things a try. But it is seldom that one impresses me and makes me fall in love with it. Many I would say have been good, but they were not great, they were not special and they almost never live up to the hype I see people here giving them or breeder claims.

Something else I like to do is find what I call 'value strains.' Strains that are fairly low price but for what you get in return for your money is still a pretty decent value. It isn't top quality but for the high and the yield you get in comparison to the low price for someone on a lower budget they can be a real value .. and now and then I like to try a strain or two that I feel might be a 'value strain.'

But I do those sorts of things after a few runs of an old standard or three that I know I will enjoy.

 

[Brick Top]

They had a description but it didn't say wether or not it was in stock. plus you have to send payment THEN they send your package which doubles the wait time AND they say lost or confiscated packages are not their responsibility, which I can understand, but y not offer a guarantee for a lil' extra like other places (ahem *tude,singleseedcenter*).

If you were talking about Hemp Depot, when you look at the price page it will say if something is out of stock or not.

You do need to add a second choice, a backup choice in case what you ordered was in stock when you sent in your order but they ran out of stock by the time your order arrived. That has never happened to me but I have read a handful of messages over the years where it has happened to people so it can happen.

I have used Hemp Depot a pretty fair number of times and never had an order not arrive but like you I would like them to offer guaranteed shipping. I think the reason they don't is their prices are a bit high already and adding guaranteed shipping might be more than people would want to pay, so maybe they figure few people would use it or with the additional cost it might drive some customers to other seedbanks with lower prices where even with guaranteed shipping an order might not cost more than regular shipping from Hemp Depot.

 

[Pipe Dream]

They had a description but it didn't say wether or not it was in stock. plus you have to send payment THEN they send your package which doubles the wait time AND they say lost or confiscated packages are not their responsibility, which I can understand, but y not offer a guarantee for a lil' extra like other places (ahem *tude,singleseedcenter*).

click seed prices and read disclaimer at top. The seeds in red are out of stock i believe. I think they are in stock. HD is a good bank I've used them before no problem as has lilfavio and are a official distributer of subs gear as well (best prices too). If you need seeds right away may not be for you but if your looking for CBI where else are you gonna get it? Send em a money order it only takes a lil longer.

 

[Pipe Dream]

If you were talking about Hemp Depot, when you look at the price page it will say if something is out of stock or not.

You do need to add a second choice, a backup choice in case what you ordered was in stock when you sent in your order but they ran out of stock by the time your order arrived. That has never happened to me but I have read a handful of messages over the years where it has happened to people so it can happen.

I have used Hemp Depot a pretty fair number of times and never had an order not arrive but like you I would like them to offer guaranteed shipping. I think the reason they don't is their prices are a bit high already and adding guaranteed shipping might be more than people would want to pay, so maybe they figure few people would use it or with the additional cost it might drive some customers to other seedbanks with lower prices where even with guaranteed shipping an order might not cost more than regular shipping from Hemp Depot.

If you think about it, Attitude is more expensive for many things like sub's gear for instance. They are not a breeder and they have to pay for the seeds and if they are confiscated they would have to eat that price if they guaranteed shipping. All that would happen is they would have to charge more money to every customer to make up for the price of that just like attitude charges more for standard shipping, the freebies aren't free. WhenI used Attitude I didn't get the guaranteed shipping and they came just fine and hempdepot is alsoa reliable seedbank that isn't in the business of ripping people off. Besidesthey have great stealth shipping, the best IMO maybe only sannies was better.