Led Users Unite!

[jdizzle22]

I took apart mine and my own IR readings too. Its not rocket science, like someone said, there isnt anything significantly more advanced than anything else. Nanometers are nanometers.

I just find it so funny that no one else wants to take readings on their own shit and just talk about anyone elses.

The question I was trying to answer by asking you was "How can he say finned heat-sinks don't make much of a difference if hes never tested one?"

No there might not be a significant technological difference between LED lights but there are big differences. Ex: an LED with 60 degree lens' vs the same LED with 120 degree lens. Or 2 lights that run on the same wattage but one uses all 2w LEDs and the other all 3, or a 1w panel vs a mix of 2w and 3w, etc. Then there are nanometers, some panels feature only 2 bands and others up to 12 or more. Then some comapnies tell you the actual power draw and others don't (trying to make their lights sound more impressive for the price) My point is there are so many differences between LED lights that you can't say that "Oh you only need 300w of LED to = a 1000w HID" unless someone has a certain companies lights dialed in great. And good LED lights haven't really been around long enough to have enough journals out there to figure this out for sure. So I tell people to take the safe route and get a good LED companies light but get almost as many watts of that as they would have HID, because we know good LED lights grow as much and as well as HID watt for watt (and depending on the light some grow more and better watt for watt). But I do still feel that the only reaol reason to switch to or go with LED is heat/noise control (but there is potentially savings from not having to buy as much supporting equipment and powering that supporting equipment in the long run, and having to replace them, etc)

HID and LED each have their own Pros and Cons.

 

[kush groove]

Horribly misleading companies like prosource, isis, and haight, find themselves in the same company as blackstar, unfortunately for twice the price.

Exactly......some people just cant accept that

and it happens to be the people that payed twice as much..lol

 

[660nm420]

What I am trying to say is that I want to propagate LED sales for everyone, there are many options, likewise there are many situations. I think that expensive panels are the death of LED lighting, not the life of them. Thats ass backwards. From the average users perspective, anything over 500 bucks is an ridiculous investment for a 4x4 foot print. I find that to be true as well.

The angle LED manufacturers should be going for is the investment comparison between HID and LED. If you spend 500 bucks on LED and 500 bucks on HID, I dare anyone to beat the HID weight output.

There are two criteria needed to fight that battle: a functional panel, at a reasonable cost.
Sure spectra has some good grows, and good lights. But who cares when you can pump that much money in HID and yield 3 times as much for the initial investment (which is the only number that matters to perspective buys)

I actually applaud those who have made their own panels, or dictated their panel specification to chinese manufacturers, thats some awesome shit. Im just saying, I can completely agree with most HID users arguments out there, especially when peoples backs are against the wall with money in their hand. The HID is proven and inexpensive. The LED is exclusive, indirect, expensive, and foreign. If you want to have the LED market thrive, the prices need to drop. Blackstar, and a handful of other manufacturers see that, thats why I bought their shit. Of course more expensive manufacturers will resist their retails being pulled down, but thats called competition, the drop in price now will pay back 10 fold in market saturation.

I for one will NEVER spend over 600 bucks on one light, thats insanity and WAAY too rich for my blood. I got 40 sq feet to make the most of, I cant budget shit like that when there are far cheaper alternatives.

Just my .02

If anyone wants to get serious about their LED lights, take them apart, hook up the ammeter, hook up the IR thermometer, and lets find out whats good. We only know blackstars numbers, and they get the most gripe out there from people who don't own them. Seems like a fishy situation in my book.

Chop up the spectra and get back to us.

Man I have followed this thread for awhile now and I appreciate all of your comments. I know you and the other mainstays on here are just trying to clarify info on all these lights. My experiences with Kessil week one malfunctioning with only a one year warranty is especially concerning since it takes 2+ years of energy savings to pay for the light. Now I'm mostly concerned about warranties since some of them can breakdown after the warranty but before the light pays itself off. This should be one of the things we consistently address on here, but then again I'm just a newbie to this site and had my heart set on Kessil.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

I posted a conversation between Gotham and myself regarding that, they said the 240 pulls about 140. From the source. I posted everyone a couple of pages back as I was inspired to figure all this shit out for people, as figuring that out is cutting through the marketing BS of all the LED companies. I asked ISIS the same thing and they said their 170 pulls about 120W, prosource I haven't asked about their actual draw, but I doubt it is as advertised as their 180 model uses 180 1W LEDs, so its draw has to be less than 180W, I don't want to be the workhorse for finding everyones companies actual draw. We haven't even confirmed that kessil draws 35W, the website just says it pulls less than 36W, not its actual draw.

Someone else can put some foot work in figuring this shit out too, I dont know why I even do it, I just try to help out people when they have questions. Now is they have 300W to spend and want a 500W model light from those companies, we can say, yes, get it, it only draws 300W so your fine.

People say advertising the maximum draw is misleading, as it is a little bit, but in such an uneducated, uncertain market, with so many people advertising the maximum wattage anyway, I can't blame someone for not putting themselves at a disadvantage when their income depends on it. It took us this long to figure it out, and we are all LED owners, not even perspective, less educated buyers. If you saw a 300W light for 400 bucks, and a 170W light for 400 bucks, and your the average consumer, which one are you going to buy?
Exactly, their LED companies, trying to make a buck, not LED martyrs trying to do everything for the consumer. Blackdog, 357, Sepctra, and Stealthgrow are the only companies I have come across that PUBLISH their draw. When asked about the draw Blackstar and ISIS both provide accurate info. Theres my list, there is a $/watt list in earlier threads regarding those companies.

From what I was told when I talked to sean from blackstar the 240w blackstar has 80 3w leds in it as far ass what it pulls I guess people around here are saying 140-150 actual draw so yeah.... im pretty sure if I asked him the actual draw he would have been honest I mean he was pretty much flat out honest with everything else he said it's not like he was trying to hide anything from me. Most of the companies will flat out put on there site this ufo or panel will cover 50sqft and replaces 600 to 1000 hid!!! which is just flat out ridiculous. Also I asked sean the question how much do my 2 240w blackstars compare to in HID terms he said about a 400w HPS so I would say yeah they probably do thats not to far fetched....... he also went on to say if your gonna grow with LED use co2 the both in conjunction have amazing results. Which is true because what I have seen from ledbudguy's grow is some amazing shocking growth rates!

 

[jdizzle22]

how much do my 2 240w blackstars compare to in HID terms he said about a 400w HPS so I would say yeah they probably do thats not to far fetched

The two panels together might with the better coverage area, but each one alone no way if they only draw 140w each. I'm even skeptical of 280w of LED beating 400w of HPS, but I bet it can be done.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Unfortunately Kessil is the most expensive $/Watt on the market as well, shame about the warranty. They looked too good to be true outside of side lighting. I never understood the whole "one color thing" Before you know it you paying 600 bucks for 3 spectra and a grand total of 6 feet of effective coverage. I have recommended Kessil to people based off of other recommendations. I hope they fared better than you (no offense, just hoping on good results from others)

Man I have followed this thread for awhile now and I appreciate all of your comments. I know you and the other mainstays on here are just trying to clarify info on all these lights. My experiences with Kessil week one malfunctioning with only a one year warranty is especially concerning since it takes 2+ years of energy savings to pay for the light. Now I'm mostly concerned about warranties since some of them can breakdown after the warranty but before the light pays itself off. This should be one of the things we consistently address on here, but then again I'm just a newbie to this site and had my heart set on Kessil.

 

[jdizzle22]

I posted a conversation between Gotham and myself regarding that, they said the 240 pulls about 140. From the source. I posted everyone a couple of pages back as I was inspired to figure all this shit out for people, as figuring that out is cutting through the marketing BS of all the LED companies. I asked ISIS the same thing and they said their 170 pulls about 120W, prosource I haven't asked about their actual draw, but I doubt it is as advertised as their 180 model uses 180 1W LEDs, so its draw has to be less than 180W, I don't want to be the workhorse for finding everyones companies actual draw. We haven't even confirmed that kessil draws 35W, the website just says it pulls less than 36W, not its actual draw.

Someone else can put some foot work in figuring this shit out too, I dont know why I even do it, I just try to help out people when they have questions. Now is they have 300W to spend and want a 500W model light from those companies, we can say, yes, get it, it only draws 300W so your fine.

People say advertising the maximum draw is misleading, as it is a little bit, but in such an uneducated, uncertain market, with so many people advertising the maximum wattage anyway, I can't blame someone for not putting themselves at a disadvantage when their income depends on it. It took us this long to figure it out, and we are all LED owners, not even perspective, less educated buyers. If you saw a 300W light for 400 bucks, and a 170W light for 400 bucks, and your the average consumer, which one are you going to buy?
Exactly, their LED companies, trying to make a buck, not LED martyrs trying to do everything for the consumer. Blackdog, 357, Sepctra, and Stealthgrow are the only companies I have come across that PUBLISH their draw. When asked about the draw Blackstar and ISIS both provide accurate info. Theres my list, there is a $/watt list in earlier threads regarding those companies.

They are trying to make a buck but they are being dishonest and misleading if they don't also list the actual draw. Thats one reason why I give Mike and his Spectras some credit because he actually lists on his website the wattage the way others do, and then tells you the actual wattage as well. And the actual wattage is what really matters.

 

[660nm420]

Exactly......some people just cant accept that

and it happens to be the people that payed twice as much..lol

Kessil NEEDS to be thrown into that list. They have a massive gap in warranty 1 year and pay off savings 2+ years. I'm finding my self questioning if this thread can do anything to sort out all this info and misconceptions no matter how hard we try. I'm tired of defending LED till i'm blue in the face and know there's no use or room here in cali to use traditional systems with our sky rocketing energy costs and a flooded market unless i steel power from the power plant which makes me paranoid, so after this weekend of headaches I have to really question my path in life and to really think about if this is even worth all the trouble since I can pick up whatever i need whenever i want. The sad part is that so many of my friends here in cali are spending 2-3 of what they make back on energy costs. Seems not even worth it to me.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Post 1: $/watt

After doing some research I came up with this: 357 supplies the info (you gotta look for it though), Spectra does as well. I cant confirm kessil. All it says is that it draws less than 36W. Probably is a 35W draw, but the statement LESS THAN can mean a lot. ProSource actually states the it the output power is 180W, but it has 180 1W chips...Hrmm...Can't confirm that one either...Same thing with the 90W model from them.

More people need an ammeter I suppose the moral of the story is.
Most expensive watt goes to Kessil: Assuming a 35W Draw - and a price of 240 Bucks (average good price I could find) that works out to $6.87 per watt.

The panel (with confirmed output wattage) with the most expensive watt is from the 357 magnum - 180W draw - $699 - $3.88 Per Watt. S T E E P. Hell of a light though. Grams per watt should be awesome from that mother fucker.

Most expensive watt I would find from spectra is the 300W model (360 actual pull) at $1100 - works out to $3.05 per watt, the lower wattage models were actually around $2.50 per watt.

Blackstar 240W costs $259 and uses roughly 140W. Works out to $1.85 per watt.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Post 2 $/watt

Blackdog LED has actual wattage as well FYI Most expensive watt is the BD360 for $1100 and the price per watt is $3.67. Cheapest watt is their Platinum XL consuming a total of 740W (good jesus) and sells for $1800. Thats $2.43 a watt.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Post 3: $/watt

Most expensive panel is actually stealth grow. $1599 for 350 watts so $4.57 a watt.

So my magnums are a bargain compared to them lol

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Post 4: $/watt

Wow, you missed the biggest one from stealth grow - the 1250 model that draws 580w sells for $3499. Thats $6.03 a watt, move over 357, we have 2 new leaders in the most expensive watt race. What we should really be doing is figuring out the price per PAR unit.

 

[surgedup]

No I didnt say one of them equals a 400w HPS he said both of them together probably equal to about a 400w HPS...

The two panels together might with the better coverage area, but each one alone no way if they only draw 140w each. I'm even skeptical of 280w of LED beating 400w of HPS, but I bet it can be done.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Each 240 draws 140. 140 x 2 = 280. Hes just saying that he thinks that the combined 280W of draw from led wont beat a 400W hps. I'd say thats about right on the threshold.

No I didnt say one of them equals a 400w HPS he said both of them together probably equal to about a 400w HPS...

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Fuck this, game = soon, I gotta get crackin on making some cheese steaks.

Everyone enjoy.

 

[surgedup]

oh ok I was just checkin...

Each 240 draws 140. 140 x 2 = 280. Hes just saying that he thinks that the combined 280W of draw from led wont beat a 400W hps. I'd say thats about right on the threshold.

 

[surgedup]

OOHH damn some cheese steaks sound really good send some my way !!!! LOL go steelers LOL imma probably get flamed for that but oh well!!!

 

[660nm420]

Unfortunately Kessil is the most expensive $/Watt on the market as well, shame about the warranty. They looked too good to be true outside of side lighting. I never understood the whole "one color thing" Before you know it you paying 600 bucks for 3 spectra and a grand total of 6 feet of effective coverage. I have recommended Kessil to people based off of other recommendations. I hope they fared better than you (no offense, just hoping on good results from others)

\

No offense taken. I followed this thread for some time before I joined and I joined because I was super excited about a Kessil test grow and then this happened. If I remember right part of my excitement came from seeing what you and others had said about Kessil but I only blame myself and Kessil since I didn't think out the warranty period payoff thing out. I still have about $12-1400 and if I can return all my Kessils that total will go up to 2600. Any more suggestions?? Falling prices of product and rising energy costs mean either I make LED work or hang it up. Most HPS users I know jack their power, which is so hit up, so how do I compete with free wattage?? LED or I cant! I'm seriously thinking about selling all my gear and take advantage of a flooded market. I can buy from these no wattage growers for cheaper than I can do myself and that seems to me to be an increasing challenge for cali growers. My thoughts now, get on craigslist, sell all my gear except for what I can return for cash and buy what I need for less than what i could do myself and save soo much labor. Thanks for all your efforts at sorting this stuff out. It's refreshing to see all these people dedicate time and energy to protecting consumers.

 

[jdizzle22]

Post 1: $/watt

"Most expensive watt I would find from spectra is the 300W model (360 actual pull) at $1100 - works out to $3.05 per watt, the lower wattage models were actually around $2.50 per watt."

Actually that price is for the newer model with an actual draw of 395w. The prices were updated but the pics and specs are still outdated.

 

[Griffta]

i havent ever grown before but i decided to go LED, i went with the uk guy on ebay and my lights are very expensive so im hoping the extra money will be worth it, i cant wait to get started though and seeing pics of what decent LED's can do gives me great confidence.

I'm setting up my 1st ever grow and thinking of going with 'ebay uk guy'. What did you order from him budbaby?
It says on his ebay page that its good for veg and flower, but did you say you ordered a veg one AND a flower one? Whys that?
Also are yours more powerful than the £199.00 light hes got on ebay? didnt you feel that one was powerful enough?